American Heroes vs. European Heroes

[HemlockGrey]

Too late.. ever see the movie Patton =)

Hey! Patton kicked Montgomery's ass in every concievable way!

[Trytostaydead]

I'm trying to remember where I heard the quote: Inside everyone is an American trying to get out.

Either Americanism is a psychological disease that has successfully infected us all... or I accidentally ate a guy and didn't notice. Maybe that explains McDonald's beef patties...

Full Metal Jacket I believe.. though I think there's a similar quote in Air America as well.

[Stravo]

I'm trying to remember where I heard the quote: Inside everyone is an American trying to get out.

Either Americanism is a psychological disease that has successfully infected us all... or I accidentally ate a guy and didn't notice. Maybe that explains McDonald's beef patties...

Full Metal Jacket I believe.. though I think there's a similar quote in Air America as well.

The qoute from Full Metal Jacket goes: "Son, we are in this war because inside of every gook is an American trying to get out."

[Admiral Valdemar]

I'm trying to remember where I heard the quote: Inside everyone is an American trying to get out.

Either Americanism is a psychological disease that has successfully infected us all... or I accidentally ate a guy and didn't notice. Maybe that explains McDonald's beef patties...

Full Metal Jacket I believe.. though I think there's a similar quote in Air America as well.

The qoute from Full Metal Jacket goes: "Son, we are in this war because inside of every gook is an American trying to get out."

That's the one, I've even got the DVD nearby. I'm sure Air America has something too though, saw it again a couple of months back.

[Nathan F]

Yeah, but didn't Patton rag on Montgomery every chance he got?

Yeah, but Patton was a fucking psycho and Monty didn't too like him either. I'd like to have seen them both just face-off mano-a-mano and erase themselves. Preferably with the ST: TOS battle theme in the background.

To quote the good General (roughly): "I might be a self obsessed primadonna, but I admit it, the problem with Monty is that he doesn't admit it!"

(Oh, yeah, Patton would slug Monty a good one between the eyes, and that would be all she wrote. )

[Perinquus]

Yeah, but didn't Patton rag on Montgomery every chance he got?

Yeah, but Patton was a fucking psycho and Monty didn't too like him either. I'd like to have seen them both just face-off mano-a-mano and erase themselves. Preferably with the ST: TOS battle theme in the background.

To quote the good General (roughly): "I might be a self obsessed primadonna, but I admit it, the problem with Monty is that he doesn't admit it!"

(Oh, yeah, Patton would slug Monty a good one between the eyes, and that would be all she wrote. )

Well, Patton really was a better general. He was far more audacious and innovative, and the Germans were certainly in no doubt as to who was the better commander.

[Publius]

There are some rather prominent exceptions to the idea that European heroes tend to be brought down by their flaws. E.g., Robin Hood, King Arthur, Sir Perceval, and Sir Galahad (of course, Sir Galahad's father, Sir Lancelot of the Lake, is an equally prominent demonstration of the idea).

Dartanyon was COOL,

You mean M. d'Artagnan, of the company of the Mousquetaires du Roi? Alexander Dumas's heroes (most notably Edmond Dantès, the titular Count of Monte Cristo) tend to be atypically optimistic. After all, the very theme of The Count of Monte Cristo is the individual's triumph over colossal injustice inflicted upon him through no fault of his own.

In Australia we have what is known as the Tall-Poppy Syndrome, which basically ensures we have no heroes (because we cut them down, see, like poppies. Or something).

"Tall Poppy Syndrome" is a Roman invention; it refers to a probably fictitious account of the historical conquest of Gabii by the seventh and final king of Rome, Lucius Tarquinius Superbus ("Tarquin the Proud") and his youngest son Sextus. According to Titus Livius's Ab Urbe Condita (I., §53 – 54), after Tarquinius failed to conquer Gabii, he arranged for his son to "flee" to the city and complain of his father's tyrannical mistreatment. The city's leaders enthusiastically supported Sextus, and he gradually became the most popular leader in the city and commander of its armies. Once his power in Gabii was as secure as his father's in Rome, Sextus sent him a messenger asking what he should do. Tarquinius mistrusted the messenger, and his only answer was to go out into the garden and cut down the tallest poppies with his stick. Sextus promptly "cut down" the "tallest poppies" of Gabii, and eliminated the entire ruling class with show trials, murder, exile, and other political chicanery.

Incidentally, as regards Attila the Hun being a Magyar hero, this is not unique. Prince Vlad III of Wallachia, alias Vlad the Impaler and Vlad Dracula, is the national hero of Rumania (Professor Radu Florescu, the preeminent Dracula scholar, has referred to him as "the Rumanian George Washington"). Whereas Dracula is remembered chiefly for his capricious and proverbial cruelty, Rumanians tend to remember his courageous struggle against the Ottoman Sultan Mehmet II (it is a source of national pride that tiny Wallachia repelled the invasion of Mehmet the Conqueror, who captured "impregnable" Constantinopolis).

Well, Patton really was a better general. He was far more audacious and innovative, and the Germans were certainly in no doubt as to who was the better commander.

Shades of Gaius Iulius Caesar and Gnaeus Pompeius Magnus, no?

PUBLIUS

[Batman]

bbs.stardestroyer.net, the place where even the history lessons are fun.

Wow.

[The Yosemite Bear]

I remember College when my roommates hated my love of foriegn movies. So with help from others I playied the depardu version of Cyrano. Funny to have the "Dorm Mom" complain why is half the dorm crying?

oh, because christian and cyrano died.

[HemlockGrey]

Whereas Dracula is remembered chiefly for his capricious and proverbial cruelty, Rumanians tend to remember his courageous struggle against the Ottoman Sultan Mehmet II (it is a source of national pride that tiny Wallachia repelled the invasion of Mehmet the Conqueror, who captured "impregnable" Constantinopolis).

Of course, the Turks would later cause Vlad's downfall and the prince would be executed by the Hungarians and his kingdom absorbed into the Ottoman domains, so he's not exactly George Washington.

[Aeolus]

This is simple: Americans are naive optimists, while Europeans are cynical pessimists. That is why American heroes look corny and childish to Europeans, while European movies seem depressing and miserable to Americans.

Does anyone have any theories as to why this is the case? It's clearly true but I have no idea why.

[Aeolus]

Or Saving Private Ryan?

Well, that movie was about Omaha and about an american mission. Why would the brits be involved?

But Patton.. hahaha, they just ragged on the poor Brits every chance they got. LOL.

I would have thought they would run into non-Americans somewhere.

They did....the were called Germans

[The Yosemite Bear]

hey we can also add whole new levels if we include Crouching Tiger, Musashi, the Fourty Nine Ronin, and the Historical "Iron Monkey"....

[Publius]

Of course, the Turks would later cause Vlad's downfall and the prince would be executed by the Hungarians and his kingdom absorbed into the Ottoman domains, so he's not exactly George Washington.

Vlad the Impaler was not executed by the Magyars; King Matthias Corvinus merely kept him under house arrest in Buda-Pest from 1462 to 1476, whereupon he returned to Walachia to become prince a third time. He was killed that year by the Turks and his head was displayed in Istanbul as proof that the "Kazîglu Bey" ("Lord Impaler") was actually dead.

Of course, this would tend to fit with the idea that Europeans prefer painfully flawed heroes who do not end well. Despite his fierce struggle with the Osmanli Padishah, the Prince Vlad could claim no more than partial success; although he had indeed repelled Mehmet the Conqueror and preserved nominal Walachian independence, Turkish domination if not rule was made a fait accompli by his death.

To complete Professor Florescu's analogy, imagine that an aged General Washington returned to the Presidency in time for the War of 1812, that the British Army immediately concluded that he alone could defeat them and therefore targeted him personally, and after killing him the war was lost and the United States made into a protectorate of the British Crown.

PUBLIUS

[Warspite]

This is simple: Americans are naive optimists, while Europeans are cynical pessimists. That is why American heroes look corny and childish to Europeans, while European movies seem depressing and miserable to Americans.

Does anyone have any theories as to why this is the case? It's clearly true but I have no idea why.

Well, the puritans had to be naive optimists to come to a (basically) untamed world (at least for them). Us, europeans have went through so much shit, we can only think in a pessismist way, and make fun of it.

Could this be called a cultural tradition?

[Raptor 597]

This is simple: Americans are naive optimists, while Europeans are cynical pessimists. That is why American heroes look corny and childish to Europeans, while European movies seem depressing and miserable to Americans.

Does anyone have any theories as to why this is the case? It's clearly true but I have no idea why.

Defeat, despair? Honestly, cynicism would kick in. I honestly prefer European Heroes and their defeat.

[Sir Sirius]

Does anyone have any theories as to why this is the case? It's clearly true but I have no idea why.

Americans are either immigrants or decendants of immigrants who decided to pack their packs and move across either Ocean in search of a better life, only an optimist would do something like that. I quess that optimism just became part of your culture. Also the life of first generation immigrants is rarely easy, which might explain why Americans so love to hear stories of people overcoming hardships.

As for Europeans, well just count the times Europe has been devastated by plaques, wars and disasters of various nature, only a madman would remain an optimist after all that crap and I quess pessimism just became a part of our culture.

[Admiral Valdemar]

Does anyone have any theories as to why this is the case? It's clearly true but I have no idea why.

Americans are either immigrants or decendants of immigrants who decided to pack their packs and move across either Ocean in search of a better life, only an optimist would do something like that. I quess that optimism just became part of your culture. Also the life of first generation immigrants is rarely easy, which might explain why Americans so love to hear stories of people overcoming hardships.

As for Europeans, well just count the times Europe has been devastated by plaques, wars and disasters of various nature, only a madman would remain an optimist after all that crap and I quess pessimism just became a part of our culture.

Ooh, those nasty plaques, I'll rue the day I pissed off those things.

[Sir Sirius]

Ooh, those nasty plaques, I'll rue the day I pissed off those things.

You silly English speakers don't pronounce your words the same way you spell them, it is most confusing.

[Admiral Valdemar]

Ooh, those nasty plaques, I'll rue the day I pissed off those things.

You silly English speakers don't pronounce your words the same way you spell them, it is most confusing.

Get used to it, bitch.

Anyway, it's plague, mistaking a "q" for a "g" is an easy mistake... if you're terminally stupid. Mwahahaha!

[Gandalf]

"It's company policy to give you the plague."
"Uh sir, that a plaque."

A Simpsons moment.