New look at an old arguement (not supporting Trek)

Trogdor · Post by **Trogdor** » 2003-11-13 10:04pm

Before I start off here, I'd just like to say "YIPPIE! MY 100th post! I can finally get those little gold stars now!"

Ahem, anyway, since this is my 100th post, I just thought I'd bring something small but new to the table (or at least something I've never seen before). It is not uncommon of rabid trekkies, after they give up on their claims that the E-E could shred an ISD to claim that while the UFP couldn't beat the Empire in a war, the Federation humans have evolved/progressed/developed/etc. to the point where they no longer suffer from certain human vices, need a montary economic system, are able to give everyone adequate living conditions, or whatever. The usual Wars rebuttal is that the Feds really haven't done that, it's just that Picard thinks they have and likes to ramble about it. Not to say that this is untrue, but it's just that I've never seen anyone take the opposite approach to defending the SW galaxy in this instance by saying that the SW galaxy is also very much more advanced on a cultural level than we are.

One might wonder where I get this from, seeing as how the SW movies have shown us such choice scenes as Jabba's throneroom filled with slave girls and other such stuff, an alien trying to sell "deathsticks" to Obi-Wan on Coruscant, and other such assorted nasties.

The answer is really quite simple: the SW galaxy is culturally advanced in a more realistic way. Not everybody loves everybody else, there are thriving contraband markets, and there are poor people, but let's face it, these things really ARE likely to be around forever in some form or another. But let's look at the truly remarkable thing the SW galaxy has done.

They forged the Galactic Republic and held it together for 25, 000 years. That is nothing short of incredible, especially given the diversity of the member beings. We on Earth have never been able to hold a candle to this. The Feds have never been able to come close to matching it, though I suppose one could make the arguement that given time they possibly could. But even if they did it wouldn't mean as much, since all the Fed member species are very close to human. The Republic had greater problems in making their society last than the Feds are ever likely to.

If one doesn't wish to compare the Old Republic with the Feds, then compare it with some of the real societies from Earth. The USSR tried to bind together several different countries, but imploded within a few decades, largely because the the people from the Ukraine thought they were better than the people from the Russia, the Russians thought they were better than the Georgians, and so on. It would be unrealistic to assume that the people from Corellia (introducers of hyperdrive) didn't think they were better than the people from Alderaan (center of arts and culture) and vice versa, or that the people on Coruscant (heart of the Republic) thought they were better than the people from Mon Calamari all for legitimate reasons, but the Old Republic was unified and held together nicely.

One might make the arguement that part of the reason that the USSR broke up was because it was a dictatorship and communist. Fair enough, let's compare the Republic to the USA then. True, the US is still existing (and will hopefully continue to do so for some time), but we had a civil war that could've split the country less than 200 years after our founding, whereas the Clone Wars didn't break out until near the Republic's end.

In short, while the UFP believes itself to be more advanced, they're really just self-pious idiots. The people from SW are the ones who're really culturally adavanced.

SPOOFE · Post by **SPOOFE** » 2003-11-14 02:24am

First off, a question: Do you really come in the NIIIIIIIIIIIIIIGHT?

Second: "Advanced" is all relative. I'm sure the flower-child hippies of the '60s thought that they were more "advanced", 'cus "Duuuude, we're all about love!" Except that their "love" wouldn't have made a viable social structure.

Similarly, even if we assumed that the UFP truly were the communist utopia that Picard claimed it to be, we can see that it only worked because A: they were constantly acquiring new ground, and B: the other societies around them were weaker. The second they were encountered with a stronger, aggressive society, they pretty much shat a collective brick and wound up shifting into a more capitalistic society (well, closer to fascism, actually... especially when you consider their little secret society shennanigans).

If anything, the UFP's "utopia" days were a small blip, an anomaly that came to light because things were relatively calm in the water (you think Kirk's era had this namby-pamby bullshit?).

SPOOFE · Post by **SPOOFE** » 2003-11-14 02:25am

Oh, and one last thing: "I hope I don't get caught!"

IRG CommandoJoe · Post by **IRG CommandoJoe** » 2003-11-15 10:47pm

You also have to take into consideration that the member planets of the Old Republic were millions of lightyears away from each other and the inhabitants of said planets didn't really interact the way the inhabitants of border nations in the USSR would. But I agree with you. It is an amazing feat to unite an entire galaxy for tens of thousands of years. But then again, they also had the Jedi Order to help unite everyone and keep the peace...that's a major plus. But perhaps that would count simply as another sign of the more advanced nature of the Star Wars galaxy...

SPOOFE · Post by **SPOOFE** » 2003-11-16 04:55pm

You also have to take into consideration that the member planets of the Old Republic were millions of lightyears away from each other

Well, tens of thousands of lightyears, actually, but hey, who's counting?

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2003-11-18 12:43pm

Well technically they didn't hold it together for that long. Even if you buy the "Ruusanian Reformation" EU retcon, that still assumes there was a major war 1000 years ago (but there's been relative peace since then.. until the Clone Wars broke out).

And heh about "millions of light years" ; )

Assuming a galaxy similar in size to our's, hyperdrive makes that irrelevant anyway.

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2003-11-18 12:44pm

Though, I suppose they could have had peace for 24,000 years, then suddenly it fell apart (though weren't there records of other wars in the "Republic's Past" according to EU sources? I could be wrong..).