DEBATE: Jehovah's Witnesses vs.Y'all (Note to mods inside)

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2002-10-04 07:15am

Darth Utsanomiko wrote:May I ask what that means, specifically? I've asked probably 15-20 different people/sources over the years, and they've all failed to provide a straight/clear answer, other than "um, hold on... (flip through convinently available scripture) he, err, died... so we could, uhh... be without sin? I haven't really thought about it."

The short answer? He died to prove that God loves us, and to wipe away sin, yes.

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2002-10-04 07:16am

I am afraid that however you live your life, you will never get into heaven. And neither will I. Only 144,000 people will actually enter the ruling class of humans who will rule alongside Jesus over the rest of humanity. All you can hope for is that you survive what most people call 'Armageddon' (which is actually a battle between Michael the arkangel AKA Jesus and Satan. Jesus won in 1914, and Satan was thrown out of heaven down to Earth), and live as a perfect human being in a paradise Earth for 100 years until Satan is given his last chance to tempt us into following him. Those that do will be destroyed, and those that do not will live for all eternity in paradise as perfect humans. Ruled over by 144,000 handpicked special humans who rule in heaven with God and Jesus. I am afraid that the doctrine about the immortal soul is nothing but jibberish presented by Christendom. They have mistranslated Revelation and some other parts of the Bible completely, and have also missed the parts which are symbolic rather than literal.

In short, build bomb shelters.

Post by **Colonel Olrik** » 2002-10-04 07:24am

I'm perfectly confortable with the portuguese Catholic Church. Regardless of the past history.

I've been many time to church and attended sunday school, and I would say that it teaches mainly morallity and good sense.

But if the G.W cult were to become the official religion..

Then I would form a rebel alliance and not rest until the chattered remains of the cult were sent to the Sun using second hand rocket propellers.

That's the end of my completely pointless rant.

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2002-10-04 02:40pm

Cyril wrote:
Darth Utsanomiko wrote:May I ask what that means, specifically? I've asked probably 15-20 different people/sources over the years, and they've all failed to provide a straight/clear answer, other than "um, hold on... (flip through convinently available scripture) he, err, died... so we could, uhh... be without sin? I haven't really thought about it."
The short answer? He died to prove that God loves us, and to wipe away sin, yes.

How did he do that, guess I need the long answer.

salm · Post by **salm** » 2002-10-04 02:44pm

yes, his death seems rather pointles.
people keep saying he died for humanities sins but cant explain or dont even ask how being crusified is going to help humanity. it´s just like: "he died, well, good for us"

Wicked Pilot · Post by **Wicked Pilot** » 2002-10-04 03:12pm

Australopithicus wrote:I am afraid that however you live your life, you will never get into heaven. And neither will I. Only 144,000 people will actually enter the ruling class of humans who will rule alongside Jesus over the rest of humanity. All you can hope for is that you survive what most people call 'Armageddon' (which is actually a battle between Michael the arkangel AKA Jesus and Satan. Jesus won in 1914, and Satan was thrown out of heaven down to Earth), and live as a perfect human being in a paradise Earth for 100 years until Satan is given his last chance to tempt us into following him. Those that do will be destroyed, and those that do not will live for all eternity in paradise as perfect humans. Ruled over by 144,000 handpicked special humans who rule in heaven with God and Jesus. I am afraid that the doctrine about the immortal soul is nothing but jibberish presented by Christendom. They have mistranslated Revelation and some other parts of the Bible completely, and have also missed the parts which are symbolic rather than literal.

Yes, and I have a fire-breathing dragon living in my garage.

Australopithicus · Post by **Australopithicus** » 2002-10-04 04:11pm

I've heard that one before.

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2002-10-04 06:36pm

And, interestingly enough, you fail to respond.

I think we can all agree that my faith is way more believable than that shit.

bigchicken · Post by **bigchicken** » 2002-10-05 01:17am

Australopithicus wrote:
Spoonist wrote: How should I live my life so that I can join the kindom of heaven when armaggedon comes?
I am afraid that however you live your life, you will never get into heaven. And neither will I. Only 144,000 people will actually enter the ruling class of humans who will rule alongside Jesus over the rest of humanity. All you can hope for is that you survive what most people call 'Armageddon' (which is actually a battle between Michael the arkangel AKA Jesus and Satan. Jesus won in 1914, and Satan was thrown out of heaven down to Earth), and live as a perfect human being in a paradise Earth for 100 years until Satan is given his last chance to tempt us into following him. Those that do will be destroyed, and those that do not will live for all eternity in paradise as perfect humans. Ruled over by 144,000 handpicked special humans who rule in heaven with God and Jesus. I am afraid that the doctrine about the immortal soul is nothing but jibberish presented by Christendom. They have mistranslated Revelation and some other parts of the Bible completely, and have also missed the parts which are symbolic rather than literal.

Whoa, hold on here a second. Correct me if I am wrong, but did you just say the Archangel Micheal fought Satan in 1914? Like 1914 CE (or AD...or whatever floats your boat). The 20th century, the one that just passed. Your not actually telling me that they fought during World War I are you? Please tell me I'm mistaken.

Fuck me, I thought the scientologists believed some crazy shit. This is even better than that Xemu crud....I think I'll stick around.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-10-05 01:24am

I see we have an unbelievably ethno-centric person here who automatically equates Germany and Austria-Hungary with being Satan during WWI. I wonder what he would believe had the US entered the war (and won it) on the German side, instead.

Archaic` · Post by **Archaic`** » 2002-10-05 02:10am

[/lurk]

Actually, he's not. It's part of an old prediction by the JW's back in the 1880's-1890's that Judgement day was going to occur sometime in September 1914. When it didn't happen, they said something about Jesus winning in heaven and that eventually his kingdom would spread to earth. They've since even several dates for when that's supposed to happen, but they've all been fizzlers. The latest I believe is 2011.

[lurk]

Australopithicus · Post by **Australopithicus** » 2002-10-05 06:26am

I haven't heard that before. You're spouting some non - JW claptrap that we haven't authorised.

Kamakazie Sith · Post by **Kamakazie Sith** » 2002-10-05 07:39am

I use to be a JW, this was before I was old enough to realize, but it wasn't about JW specifically but in religion as a whole. Anyway, during my entire time there I NEVER even heard of the Watchtower there was never any mention to it, and frankly the things that are talked about in that tabloid do NOT reflect the people I knew....who were good people even though misguided by religion as a whole.

Archaic` · Post by **Archaic`** » 2002-10-05 09:23am

Australopithicus wrote:I haven't heard that before. You're spouting some non - JW claptrap that we haven't authorised.

*Shakes his head and sighs*

If you haven't heard it, it's more likely because they didn't want you to know about it, not because it didn't happen. I don't have the time nor inclination to pull out the page references to the Watchtower issues, nor do I think you'd have ones going that far back anyway. And let's not mention how likely you are to take the word of Athiests and Shunned Ex-JW's. In any case, I may as well give you the links to places with far more time on their hands to go through this stuff than my hardly humble self.

Firstly, you can listen to any number of these.
http://www.watchtowernews.org/wav/wav.htm

You also might find this interesting
http://www.freeminds.org/doctrine/datelist.htm

And don't forget everything here
http://www.freeminds.org/history/history.htm

Specifically, of that last one, you can check the links right near the top about false prophecies. There's direct quotes from the Watchtower Society publications of the era there, page references and all. Feel free to look them up at your local Kingdom Hall.

I believe I've made my point. All that's left is.......according to your god, what's supposed to happen to false prophets like those of your governing body?

Utsanomiko · Post by **Utsanomiko** » 2002-10-05 07:19pm

Waitaminnit- JW think Jesus was also Archangel Michael, but not God? WTF? Did I read that right?

Then how come nobody's mentioned Jesus Q. Christ having 3 pairs of wings? And who was Archangel Raphael, Archangel Uriel, Archangel Gabriel, or the Angels Sachiel, Sandalphon, Armisael, Bardiel, Gaghiel, Zeurel, Sahaquiel, Ramiel, Iruel, etc etc etc?

Doen't soun like these Witnesses should even call their god 'Jehovah' in the first place. How about 'Dagon's Witnesses' instead? That, and 'Shub Niggurath's Witnesses has a nice ring to it.

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2002-10-05 07:34pm

I believe I've made my point. All that's left is.......according to your god, what's supposed to happen to false prophets like those of your governing body?

They shalt burn.

Archaic` · Post by **Archaic`** » 2002-10-05 11:56pm

Burning them seems such a waste though......where else are we going to find such good examples of profound stupidity with which to use as boogymen for our children?

*Sighs* I've been debating JW's for far too long I think. It's tiring. And whenever I reference something like Wong's fabulous essays, it's always stuff like "Oh, he hates religion, so his word can't be trusted."

I've not yet found one willing or able to fault his logic.
Actually, I might have to post some snippits of some of the more recent debates here sometime. I'm not as skilled a debator as I like to think I am, and they're running rings around me. It'd be nice to have some input from people who'd know the topic better than I do.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-10-06 12:10am

Archaic` wrote:Actually, I might have to post some snippits of some of the more recent debates here sometime. I'm not as skilled a debator as I like to think I am, and they're running rings around me. It'd be nice to have some input from people who'd know the topic better than I do.

Debating tip: do not rush your answer. Think about what they're saying. Break it down. Look for weaknesses, bad reasoning, flaws. Check out vague references to see if they're making stuff up or distorting it beyond recognition (they usually are). The biggest debating mistake people make on the Internet is answering in a stream of consciousness. Sometimes people will even contradict themselves in a single post because they're so busy trying to contradict each individual point their opponent makes.

Archaic` · Post by **Archaic`** » 2002-10-06 12:22am

Unfortunatly, that's a problem I can't easily get around. Usually I'm the one that starts off these debates, and then within less than a day I get bumrushed. Debating 2 JW's, a Catholic and a Southern Baptist in one topic isn't easy, and of course, they expect prompt replies to them, fully referenced and with quotes.

(Not like I wouldn't give them the full referencing anyway, but to expect it within 6 hours to a day, during which time other people join in and add their 2c to the equation. Ug. -_-;; )

And of course, I'm accused of whinging when I request they elect a representative to give me a proper one on one debate with timeframes that mean I'm able to still have a life whole debating.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-10-06 12:25am

Archaic` wrote:Unfortunatly, that's a problem I can't easily get around. Usually I'm the one that starts off these debates, and then within less than a day I get bumrushed. Debating 2 JW's, a Catholic and a Southern Baptist in one topic isn't easy, and of course, they expect prompt replies to them, fully referenced and with quotes. (Not like I wouldn't give them the full referencing anyway, but to expect it within 6 hours to a day, during which time other people join in and add their 2c to the equation. Ug. -_-;; )

And of course, I'm accused of whinging when I request they elect a representative to give me a proper one on one debate with timeframes that mean I'm able to still have a life whole debating.

If they don't understand what your disadvantage is, then challenge them to come here and sell their shit. We'll give them a proper reception

Archaic` · Post by **Archaic`** » 2002-10-06 12:34am

I believe their reasons for never posting here were that it was "Too highbrow". If I challenged them to come here for a debate though.......well....read their replys from when I first linked to one of your essays (I'm too lazy for my own good. ^^;;; I figured that there wasn't much reason to write up my own rebuttal when you've already done it better than I could have. ^^;; ).

JW1
Please, no URLs from stardestroyer. I visited there, and I am certainly not going to allow a group of Trekker fanboys to tell me whether or not God exists. I find their theories interesting, but then again, these people debate figments of George Lucas's imagination as though they were fact.

There's quite a lot more there like that, in the same vein as what I posted above. This one for example.

JW2
Mike Wong's personal difficulties with religion are well documented on his 'about me' pages. I take his points of view to be the highly-biased rantings of a man who has reason to dislike his wife's branch of the Baptist faith.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-10-06 12:40am

Flawless textbook ad-hominem fallacy (not that they would know what this means).

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-10-06 12:41am

PS. If we're so stupid and irrational, then we should be easy to defeat in debate, right? Challenge them to come here.

Archaic` · Post by **Archaic`** » 2002-10-06 12:46am

They should know what it means by now. I've linked them to http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/ numerous times already. Then again....who knows if they ever read anything I link them to. It'd explain why they keep repeating things your essays rebutted.

I've already presented that challenge to them numerous times. I'm still waiting for an answer.

EDIT: I thought one couldn't edit their posts on this forum? Oo Oh well.

I doubt I would go there; Ben's already tried to debate with Mr Bean and a few others and elected to leave. There's really no point.

I don't suppose someone can link me to this old debate with BenRG (Also sometimes known as "What'ss in a name"), could they?

EDIT 2: Ben's excuse.

No, because Mike Wong, like his nemesis Dark Star, is incapable of admitting when he is wrong and tends to get even more irrational and hateful in debates than some shippers.

I'm not saying that I could beat Mr. Wong in such a debate, because I can't. To debate, one needs a common starting ground, and that would be impossible for me and him. His basic starting assumptions would be too different for either of us to even start talking.

The "Shippers" referenced there are a sort of debating clique on that forum. Hard to explain, but not really relevant here. In any case, that looks like a ad-hominem fallacy (Not to mention outright lie), and a textbook cop-out.

Kamakazie Sith · Post by **Kamakazie Sith** » 2002-10-06 09:36am

Archaic, as long as you've said you part and made your point you've done all that you can. I go into religious chatrooms to challenge their beliefs and all I get is bible quotes, and excuses.

Wong has some of the best quotes on his webpage.

"Please remember these words on judgement day!!!!!!! Better yet, remember them today and find your maker God before judgement day as He truly loves you!!!!"

That's the quality of response you get. Or "God is real because we are all alive!" Ugh....