How do you counter the "they weren't Christians" a

Post by **Gandalf** » 2003-11-15 06:19am

I've been arguing with people on another board, and wghenever I drum up a Christian atrocity like the Crusades, Inquisition etc. they just say that they aren't true Christians.

How can I beat this?

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2003-11-15 06:49am

Ask them for proof. The burden of proof is on them to explain how a bunch of psychopaths who killed in the name of god weren't Christians.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-11-15 06:50am

Gandalf wrote:I've been arguing with people on another board, and wghenever I drum up a Christian atrocity like the Crusades, Inquisition etc. they just say that they aren't true Christians.

How can I beat this?

In an argument over whether Christianity necessarily makes you moral, it is circular logic to define Christians as moral people. They are assuming their own conclusion as a premise and then using it to prove itself.

Of course, if they're too stupid to understand why circular logic is bad (which is surprisingly common), you might try asking them to define "true Christian". When they get finished laying out all of the requirements, ask them how many people in this world qualify for the definition. Point out all of the Christians who don't. Then laugh at them for playing rhetorical games.

Post by **Gandalf** » 2003-11-15 08:41am

Thanks guys, I shall deliver an impending smackdown when the opportunity next presents itself.

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2003-11-15 08:51am

God speed!

...

Any details you'd like to share about the discussion in general?

dworkin · Post by **dworkin** » 2003-11-15 09:18am

Often a christian's definition of who is/isn't a christian will parallel the Nicean creed. So when they argue that a your example of reprehensable believers were not christians it is handy to have evidence that they did adhere to the creed.

The Nicean creed is availiable all over the internet and in churchs planet wide. It defines briefly the trinity, the church and other key articles of faith.

Like most deviants I learned the creed by playing Credo, an irreverent game very similar to Nuclear War in which the articles of faith are regulary voted on. Votes are determined on how many believers, roman army officers and bishops you control. Extermination/subversion of the other players' voting blocks is the main route to victory in the game.

Post by **Gandalf** » 2003-11-15 09:22am

It's at a forum run by people from my HS grade, for my grade. They have a 'serious thoughts' forum. For politics, religion and such. The problem is that it has a HUGE bias, about eight ppl vs me. I get a lot of crap about how smug I am and such. I can post some of the fun stuff if anyone's interested. What I really hate is that there is one guy there who is a full bigot. He said the Salem witch trials were justified, and when I asked if he supported the holocaust becasue the Catholic Church did, he got arounf it by saying "I believe certain religions deserve to be extinguished."

Basically all said I was didn't like the church because of things like the Crusades and such. Wackiness ensued.

Post by **Gandalf** » 2003-11-15 09:27am

Sorry, forgot to add, we're now debating the accuracy of "Hank's Ass."

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2003-11-15 09:33am

Gandalf wrote:It's at a forum run by people from my HS grade, for my grade. They have a 'serious thoughts' forum. For politics, religion and such.

Wow. My HS didn't have that. We had boring ethics classes, or "R.E."

The problem is that it has a HUGE bias, about eight ppl vs me. I get a lot of crap about how smug I am and such.

While it is completely acceptable for them to be bigots and morons. Go figure.

I can post some of the fun stuff if anyone's interested.

Sure. I'm interested.

What I really hate is that there is one guy there who is a full bigot. He said the Salem witch trials were justified, and when I asked if he supported the holocaust becasue the Catholic Church did, he got arounf it by saying "I believe certain religions deserve to be extinguished."

Basically all said I was didn't like the church because of things like the Crusades and such. Wackiness ensued.

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2003-11-15 09:37am

Shit. I hit the submit button before I was done.

How large is your school Gandalf? Is this a guy you know personally?

How the hell does he justify the Salem witch trials? Or does he just say they were "justified" without actually offering a rationalisation? What makes one religion deserve to be "extinguished" while his remains untouched from both harm and criticism?

Post by **Gandalf** » 2003-11-15 10:25am

These are from "linkin", my real nemesis on the board. For reference, I am Darth Manveru.

linkin wrote:why not be intollerant, gays are awful no offense

linkin wrote:
Darth Manveru wrote:
linkin wrote:did i support the holcaust? what kind of question is that
Wiccanism is a religion (I'm pretty sure the Pope acknowledged it a while ago.) You said burn them at the stake.

Judaiism is a religion too.
alright. yes i do believe some religions to deserve to be extinguished.....better?

linkin wrote:
Darth Manveru wrote:
linkin wrote:haha, you guys are just religion whackers, afraid that there could be something greater to it all, i pity you'se once more
I like to call it reasoning. And if I say I pity you for your religious beliefs, the board would go apeshit. Yet you do it this way, nothing happens.
haha, indeed it is true

linkin wrote:can you be racist to us white people? it's a f***in joke racism, it's made up by non white races in order to make everyone sorry for them (no offense but it is) i mean look at zimbabwe, that huge racism yet it ain't treated like that, or south africa forcing the cricket team to have 2 blacks in the team wen there is only one who makes the grade

Most of the other's I can't really post because it all needs to be taken in context. Though more will come.

As a fun bit of irony, the uber-fundie linkin has had premarital sex an awful lot. When someone mentioned that offhand in a post he threated the guy to have it edited. I couldn't take advantage of it quick enough though (eg: quoting the post so he couldn't get at it.)

Rye · Post by **Rye** » 2003-11-15 10:51am

Sounds interesting/fun...can i join?

Post by **Gandalf** » 2003-11-15 10:54am

Rye wrote:Sounds interesting/fun...can i join?

Nothing would make me happier than to lead a SD.net crusade, but it's restricted to people in my grade at school. Though some of you could pose as people from my grade.

Post by **Alyrium Denryle** » 2003-11-15 11:20am

what grade are you? I am a senior and can get in legally f you are as well.

Mad · Post by **Mad** » 2003-11-15 11:35am

Gandalf wrote:I've been arguing with people on another board, and wghenever I drum up a Christian atrocity like the Crusades, Inquisition etc. they just say that they aren't true Christians.

How can I beat this?

Well, by my definition, they weren't true Christians. Of course, by my definition, most professed Christians today aren't true Christians...

(A church asking payment for church services, for example, goes contrary to "you received freely, give freely" in regards to religious instruction/deeds.)

Darth Yoshi · Post by **Darth Yoshi** » 2003-11-15 03:40pm

Gandalf wrote:Nothing would make me happier than to lead a SD.net crusade, but it's restricted to people in my grade at school. Though some of you could pose as people from my grade.

Is it limited to simply people at your school, or can others join provided they are in an equivalent schooling level?

Frank Hipper · Post by **Frank Hipper** » 2003-11-15 04:02pm

This "linkin" isn't just a fundie, he's a fucking hate mongering pig. Maybe you should ask an Admin. for permission to invite him here. See how the little twat acts when he can't count on tacit support.

BlkbrryTheGreat · Post by **BlkbrryTheGreat** » 2003-11-15 04:20pm

Is it possible for people, who are not registered to the forum, to browse through it even if they can't post? If so how about giving us a link to the site?

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-11-15 07:28pm

Frank Hipper wrote:This "linkin" isn't just a fundie, he's a fucking hate mongering pig. Maybe you should ask an Admin. for permission to invite him here. See how the little twat acts when he can't count on tacit support.

Hell, invite him here! I'm sure it'll be interesting.....

DPDarkPrimus · Post by **DPDarkPrimus** » 2003-11-15 07:32pm

If he trys the old "Hitler wasn't a Christian", or with any other dead person, just present the evidence showing that they WERE Christian, and tell them that their personal convictions mean jack compared to evidence.

Andrew J. · Post by **Andrew J.** » 2003-11-15 08:15pm

Is that the "True Scotsman" fallacy?

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-11-15 08:41pm

Perhaps that fallacy should be updated to a more relevant case: use his logic to prove that George Bush is not American.

Ludicrous, you say? Au contraire: the Constitution has numerous stipulations which he does not uphold. Ergo, by the logic of our fundie friend, George Bush is not an American

Similarly, Kenneth Lay is not a businessman. A businessman, after all, is a professional whose job is to generate money. Kenneth Lay did not generate money, he generated an illusion of money which eventually went down the toilet. Ergo, according to our fundie friend's logic, Kenneth Lay was not a businessman.

Honestly, you could do these all day.

DPDarkPrimus · Post by **DPDarkPrimus** » 2003-11-15 10:23pm

Hmm, going on a specific example you named...

The Crusades were mostly fought by peasents who volunteered to fight for their country and for God because they were promised a place in heaven if they did so.

Throw that bit of trivia at them.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-11-15 10:28pm

You could also point out that the individuals in question most likely were true Christians. After all, the Bible does encourage this kind of thing. They were doing their Christian duty.

Nonviolent, tolerant Christians aren't true Christians at all, in fact. They've taken values from the non-deranged world and incorporated it into their belief system, excising the bad stuff.

Post by **Gandalf** » 2003-11-15 10:50pm

Things are quite peaceful now. So I've got this planned out:

I fire things up again.
People bitch and moan.
I invite anyone who cares here.
Hilarity ensues.

Oh great admins, who rule over us, may I invite him here for some sort of Wong level smackdown?

StarDestroyer.Net BBS

How do you counter the "they weren't Christians" a

How do you counter the "they weren't Christians" a

Re: How do you counter the "they weren't Christians&quo

Re: How do you counter the "they weren't Christians&quo