Ugh. Due to the length of your posts, I wonder if anyone other than you guys are still reading this thread.
Probably not many, c'est la vie.
It's getting hard to tell who's saying what.
Oh, and tharkun needs to quote correctly.
I quote simply by italizaing the text. What I say is in normal text, what somebody else says is in italics. I hate trying to follow nested quotes.
Paris was looking to rebel, Eddington was looking for a new purpose in life.
These are not examples of core world citizens taking up arms, so far we have only seen frontier colonists and certain military personnel who sympathize do this
BS. They are examples of core world citezens. I do NOT need to prove that every core world citizen is "looking to rebel" or "loking for a new purpose in life" ... I need only prove a fraction of them are. We have other Maquis from core worlds:
Cal Hudson
The Vulcan Liason (in "The Maquis")
Suder (the Betazoid on voyager)
But of course you will dismiss these on some technicality or another ... even though I'm only claiming 1 in 10,0000 people would be up for terrorism.
Who was nonetheless unsatisfied with his job, he had a direction, but it was not the one he wanted, it's the same as being directionless.
Irrelevant do you think there won't be hordes directionless people when the almighty Starfleet ceases to exist?
Now, would that be so hard to put in an hour long show?
Restrooms are not relevant, important news related to the war is.
1. You are assuming news is getting out.
2. You are assuming that the feddies would release such news. Look at WWII the activities of most resistors was NEED TO KNOW, because repeating the information COULD BE LETHAL.
3. Abscence of evidence is not evidence of abscense. We see plenty of Maquis, far in EXCESS of the CONSERVATIVE figure of 1 in 1/10,000 I've been playing with.
The Maquis died for their right to keep their homes, not the Federation.
Learn to read. They are seperate thoughts and hence the period in the middle. I used it, even when not gramtticly correct, so you would pick up on that. We have seen starfleet officers give their lives for the Federation on numerous occassions.
Scaling according to what? You're pulling numbers out of thin air.
Nope, I'm just Mike's population estimate, if numbers are out of thin air its his doing:
"We can conclude that the Federation probably has hundreds or perhaps even thousands of small colonies and outposts scattered throughout its territory, with roughly 150 planets that have populations numbering in the billions. "
Now we conclude billions ... I've been using *2* to be conservative.
That gives 300,000,000,000 citzens total. Using 1 in 10,000 that gives us
30,000,000 terrorists. Please note this ratio is MUCH MORE CONSERVATIVE than Kashmir, Palestine, France, Greece, Afghanistan, etc.
In short I'm grossly underestimating the size of the federation, I'm grossly underestimating the historical trend towards resistance, and STILL THAT IS NOT ENOUGH FOR YOU. You have yet to provide your OWN NUMBERS as to what expected amount of resistance is. Rather you snipe using vague words because you have nothing from which to derive lower numbers than I'm stating.
And?
There is ample evidence for .01% of the federation to have some prediliction towards resistance and terrorism.
Even though it's still occupied territory.
I'm not debating Israel here, I'm just using it as an example similar to the Empire/Fed if a full scale occupation were to occur.
It doesn't because the rest of the world would smack it down if it ever went that far, not even America could protect it.
This doesn't stop them from using other methods to bomb civilian targets, it amounts to the same thing.
Not really. The physcological effects of using WMD's are vastly different, as you yourself note. The Empire opening uses WMD's on live targets for "demonstration" the Israelis talk about collatoral damage and accidents. The former, as you note brings about a much greater sense of outrage and shock, the latter is viewed with much less horror.
Rebel propaganda, and Rebel antagonists stirring up the usually quiet revolutionaries with news of the Emperor's death and the Empire's fall.
It's CANNON. As in "God's eye view". Somehow the "ultimate PR machine" can't even keep the peons from celebrating when the emporer dies.
They're the Empire, not WWI Earth, I say again, they can handle it.
Despite the fact that we have official data showing their inability to cope with bioweapons in Rogue Squadron? Despite the fact that you never say
HOW they deal with it, especially considering by the time anyone KNOWS ITS HAPPENING you are into the third wave.
Yet you assume Feddy whackos would do what no psycho has done before. Hmmm
Bzzt wrong. In "For the Uniform" Eddington releases a bio weapon onto a Cardassian planet.
Section 31 decides to commit xenocide.
Torres rewires a WMD to hit a Cardassian Planet.
As in almost never.
Yes brilliant, when asked for a definition use even more vague terms
How about QUANTIFICATION?
The point is: IT DOESN'T WORK.
Name a battle they have lost because it didn't work.
Fed space support can be so easily disrupted it's laughable.
Really and when have we seen it disrupted? Oh wait you are pulling more "facts" out of thin air. The only time feddie space support has been disrupted it was done off camera without showing us what effort was needed to disrupt it.
AR588? It was a strategic comm outpost.
Considering I'm referring to "Nor battle the strong" ... gee can we say straw man? In all of feddie history we have seen *1* battle which would likely have gone SOP, this would be AR588. That was a debacle with unprepared troops against worse attackers, there are rationalizations other than feddie stupidity, however they are not backed by evidence (nor disproven by evidence).
And why should they be used for any sort of defense? Ever heard of Marines?
And the fact that they let a bunch of idiots with knives run around as their main army force speaks something about what the Feds have, does it not?
Nope it speaks volumes about how ST has continued the combat trend ... land armies becoming less and less important (relative to navies, airforces, and aa guns/SAM's) for attack and defense. Armies occupy territory, but they have a piss hard job of holding it without air and naval support if the enemy can bring those to bare.
Do you know what would happen if the feddies tried to deploy a large number of men? The transport ships would die. Do you really want to cram 100,000 troops on a ship only for it to be destroyed by a warp core breach when the enemy makes a hit and run?
The fact of the matter is with a strong enough Navy the strength of the army is irrelevant to defense ... if the enemy cannot land troops then having a small army is fine.
As far as Klingons ... well they manage to pile up millions (? can't find the direct quote on the web) of dead Cardassians in "Strange Bedfellows".
If the Feds want to be an insterstellar power and hope to maintain it, they need the troops to do it. Instead, they have NO troops.
Tell me which does more to enforce US Hegemony? The infantry and the Abrams (which have to be flown in one at a time) or the carrier groups, airforce, and missile forces which can level most countries military base?
The federation was simply overconfidant in the abilities of its space navy.
We have never seen a battle where the guys without space cover won.
You are ignoring the fact that it did take a long time to get there, and that orbital support was destroyed.
Gee and that never happened in WWII? Get real. If you disperse all your forces you go from minor losses at some points and major victories at others to minor victories at many points and major losses at a few. Any sane military plans takes the latter over the former. This is why places like the Aleutians, Corregidor, etc. had at most a few thousand soldiers. The US had millions of combat troops and massive fleets ... these were not deployed to protect worthless territory.
What if it had not been an "expendable" colony?
Concession accepted.
Use cap ship support. For instance the US considered Midway to be more valuable than Corregidor, hence why there weren't carrier groups off of Corregidor while they did protect Midway.
I'm tired of you assuming something must exist even if we don't see it.
I'm tired of you twisting my statements out of context and replying with one liners that don't even respond to the subject they allege to.
In short all manner of bounds can be derived depending on how representative we assume our data to be.
In other words I pointed out that from what we see in paradise lost, we can assume nothing. Unless we know what that sample represents the bounds are unlimited either way. We can take and say assume that we have 1 officer per square acre. We can assume that its 3 for every street corner in every major city (in which case its still a ludicrious number), we can assume that its 3 per major city and get very low end estimates.
In other words WE DON'T HAVE ENOUGH DATA TO DRAW CONCLUSIONS. You have ONE BLOODY DATA POINT. Without some inkling about what that data point represents ... *any* number can be generated.
Tell me given the data you bring up how many officers do you estimate Admiral Leyton deployed? What assumptions did you make and what methodology did you use to generate those COLD HARD NUMBERS?
I know they have bioweapons. But what type?
Well let's see ones which destroy all living matter, virii, "biogenic" weapons (which happen to be stored on ST ships), bacteria, etc.
A better question what types DON'T they have?
With 0.1% percent of a resistance force?
Yep. .1% means 300,000,000 resistors going with Lord Wong. Now let's say the Imperials occupy in similar force to say the occupation of Norway. For ever soldier the Nazis had in Norway there were 20 civillians. This means with 300 billion civvies you'd need 15 billion stormies. Using 300 million feddie resistors to find *1* in 15 billion people who suites their needs ... damn good.
And how will he get past security to infect them?
Contrary to moronic beleif, occupation soldiers do go off duty. They do go to bars to drink, they do have sexual relations with whores, they do have leave days. In other words places with Zilch for security.
Troops do not maintain full combat readiness at all times. Off duty stormies are not going to wear NBC protection.
Very slim.
Could I see your derivation please?
Such officers who would need such a thing and be allowed would not be going back to the home galaxy in quite a while, in that time they'd infect the ST people and the resistance plan would backfire spectacularly.
And nobody goes AWOL to visit the hookers
Nobody goes to a civvy bar off duty without NBC protection
Do you have any evidence to back this moronic claim that 15 billion soldiers do not engage in normal occupation pursuits (need I cite German, American, Russian, etc. examples)?
Assuming that everybody infected goes right back to the Empire and starts travelling like mad.
Nope assuming they go back to the Empire and infect a few people each and a small percentage of them travel. Its called an exponential growth curve for a reason.
In which case the AQ gets infected too..
In which case you leak rumors of a bioterrorist plot through your plants and quickly quarantine the less mobile AQ down.
In appearance and name, but are they exactly like us? Even though they're from another galaxy?
In biology things build up. Similar appearance is a function of similar niche and similar genetics. Given that they are perfect replicas ... yes they are damn close. Remember chimps and humans can be killed by similar weapons and they are even less similar.
Irrelevant, they had Odo to get much data from.
Kidnap a single soldier, hell get a dozen (oh wait we'll assume Storm Troopers are Gods who can't be beaned in the head with a rock, knocked unconscious, stripped, and then transported to a laboratory ... I mean its not like a smuggler could manage to abduct two Storm troopers
)
This is assuming that the infected individual will not come into contact with anybody in the AQ after infection and will immediatley go back to the home galaxy in time for the virus to activate.
No dumbass, I explictly stated an incubation period such that the infected person is not contagious till they have left the AQ. When you get infected you have a handful of pathogens in you ... you are not communicable until the concentre builds several orders of magnitude. This an egineerable quantity the Russians have worked on extensively.
What if he stays on and spreads it to his ship?
What if that ship drops off people to other ships or stays on in the AQ?
What if they then zip around the AQ infecting others?
First off the VAST majority of time when a soldier gets orders to head home they are NOT revoked. As its orders the VAST majority of the time they are obeyed (at the risk of being marooned in this backwater). If the ship does stay in the AQ ... then you leak the existance of the bioweapon early and begin quaruntine early, maybe offer a few "plotters" up for torture and death to give your plants added credibility.
Quaruntine works when you travel slowly. It fails utterly when you travel fast.
This plan would require so many things to go just right that only a complete idiot would try it.
By your definition that would be every fed resistor. Its risky, but its not that risky, odds are very high that it works if you are selective about whom you infect initially.
The Romans held their empire with a lot less troops than you'd probably think they would need for an empire of their size.
Real world values:
Germany in France: 80 civvies/soldier
Germany in Belgium: 80 civvies/soldier
Germany in Denmark: 90 civvies/solder
Germany in the Balkans: 105 civvies/soldier
Germany in Hollad: 85 civvies/soldier
Germany in Norway: 20 civvies/soldier
Note these are LOW numbers, Kashmir and Palestine are both higher when the governments try for security.
Using the *best* number from the German statistics, this means you need 2.8 billion stormies to occupy the federation. Hell if they set up a client state like the US did with Japan it would be 750 million stormies.
Now I have provided real world values on 3 seperate occasions, you have provided it on ... oh wait you never have. In short you can wave your hands all you want. My numbers are *perfectly* reasonable given historical precedence.
As far as Rome ... Rome did maintain significant troops in *occupied cities*, Roman occupation had very, very little effect on the less populated areas. When those areas didn't want to submit, Rome had to send in the legions.
I'm tired of this red herring, if the AQ wasn't worth it the Empire wouldn't go there.
Then provide some DAMN NUMBERS about the value of what they intend to find there. You consistently wave your hands and say whatever this Unknown Magical Resource is, its worth deploying hundreds of millions of troops en perpetuity, losing numerous ones, and risking terrorists with access to megatonne suitcase bombs and bioweapons.
So again please QUANTIFY what you think the AQ is worth and explain why.
It might be very worthwhile to go in, set up a client state and get out ... but not to go in and try to occupy.
The Feds however wouldn't, they don't know how, for the last time, they are PASSIVE.
Hmm passive. Let's see these are the guys who started a rebellion because people VOLUNTARILY SURRENDERED their citezenship. Who commited what half a dozen Cannon examples of treason? Who used bioweapons in pursuit of protecting people who ELECTED to stay behind.
Passive my ass.
They don't need to thrive on capitalism, they need to obey while the Empire assimilates them.
People are going to experience a drop in social standing. They go from being the top dogs in a communistic state to being the bottom guys in a capitalistic one ... all the more reason to join the resistance.
What's the point?
Get the resources out for the least cost.
Independant minded scientists do exist in the UFP, but they are few and far between and are ostracized (like Noonien Soong and the doctor who did the spine thing).
Look mommy another generalization with no quantification.
In the TNG episode where warp drive damages space, the Fed Science Council says everything is alright, even though it isn't.
So being wrong does not mean you are stifling. You do realize that whole scientific feilds have been wrong (see Boltzmann and Energia, see the whole Deterministic Quantum Mechanics debate, see the prion debate).
Nobody questions them, nobody does any independant research.
Transwarp drive failed once, it's never been taken up again, despite proof that it works.
Independant researchers on the other hand come up with new things, Soong's androids, Pressman's phase cloak, Voyagers 1001 uber devices made out of chopsticks (crap writing maybe, but canon nonetheless)
Internal consistency ... its a good thing.
We've seen them lose numerous lives in bloody meat grinders because of not having the proper weapons.
For a power who's propaganda relies on the sanctity of life, this seems rather dumb.
Why? They've had 20 years without war and their entire military mindset is is to stop the enemy in space before he lands. This should sound familiar, it was British Doctrine for years.
Yes, why not? We know there are many who do tear away from the establishment and do their own thing, no doubt there are others who want to but feel that they can't.
Amazing in one post you describe feddie citezens as people who do whatever they are told regardless of who tells them, in the next you say that you need only remove a single group and they will magically develop independant thought.
Yes, but the Empire doesn't need to leave them to it, occupation and client states can fit together quite nicely.
The whole purpose of a client state is to avoid the occupation. Its to be able to have troop ratios of 400:1 rather than 20:1 and up against resistance. The only reason to occupy outright is if its DAMN VITAL. Specific assets within a client state might be occupied (i.e. bases near major cities, near oilfeilds, etc.) ... but occupying the whole place is counterproductive to having a client state.
So? Things were slower back then.
Things like human lives? Nope. For 100 years the Turks have tried to assimilate the Kurds. It hasn't happened. Whereas numerous Roman conquests were assimilated in half that time. Its about *GENERATIONS*. When the people who remember the "good old days" are dead and buried for a generation ... then complete assimilation occurs.
The Republic was crumbling with or without him, slavery and disputes went unchecked, the Republic had no strong military to speak of.
And this makes him a strong leader how? Any dumbass can throw money at the military, officially outlaw things like slavery (while it is still practiced), and make noise about corruption (especially considering he fostered the corruption himself).
Palpatine turned it into a strong unified Empire that conquered all around it, it would've smashed the Vong to pieces had they dared to attack (and evidence suggests they wouldn't have).
Palpatine pureposefully weakened the Old Republic so he could take over. Once in charge he threw money at the military, sent them out to fight, and allegedly drove above ground crime below it.
Useless conjecture.
In other words you have zip, zero, zilch in the way of proof that he provided a useful impact onto the scientific feild, concession accepted.
Assumption.
Factually backed theory. If you have a better one with better evidence, please put it forward and QUANTIFY it. Let's say we've seen 100,000 in all of star Trek. We seen at least 20 resistors, in other words DOUBLE my conservative figure.
That would be very short sighted.
Yes look how it turned out for the US and Japan. In any event the empire is short-sighted. Prime example being the lack of a line of succession.
Human history is irrelevant. The Federation has not humans
Hahahaha
they have teddy bears, and your so called examples of ST resistance do not represent the population at all.
Really they are members of the population, let's make a guess at the number of total feddie characters seen in ST, 50,000? 100,000? In other words the actual NUMBERS and not your pathetic handwaving are much greater than the ones I've been using.
Which all entered the Empire willingly, right? Sure.
In any case, this is beside the point.
Not at all. Territory which used to belong to your nation historically has a much lower rate of terrorism when you "reconqueor" it.
Because they have no reserves eh?
You mean you are stupid enough to deploy your reserves
INDEFINATELY as occupation forces? Reserves exists so you can call them up in times of great need. Using them on a permanent basis is a recipe for DISASTER.
So what? Have ETA gotten what they want?
Well let's see they:
1. Got rid of Franco? Check.
2. Got rid of Facism? Check.
3. Got freedom to speak Basque? Check.
4. Autonomy for their state? Check.
5. Liberalization of Spain? Check.
6. Independant Basque state? Nope.
5/6 is pretty damn good.
It doesn't matter if a resistance faction exists and causes some trouble, they'll nver cause enough trouble to make the Empire go away, and your examples just prove this.
Let's see:
Afghanistan
Lebanon
India
The Philipines
Haiti
Latin America under Bolivar
Smugglers are settlers now?
And the dumbass award for not being able to get a direct quote right goes too ...
"My lord, there are so many uncharted settlements ..."
Who inhabits settlements? Settlers. Smugglers is just one option Ozzel attempts to list ... he is explicitly cut off from continueing the list.
Because it's complicated and unecissarry.
I see, and this is derived on what basis? Where is your cost/benifit analysis again?
Which they'll be willing and able to deploy? I don't think so.
They've done it at least twice already ...
Ridiculous assumption.
Two word rebuttles with no supporting data. Nevermind I've named numerous examples showing my numbers to be extremely conservative.
Do you have any quantitative proof that the number of resistors would be < .00016% of the population?
And that takes time and money. Why buy what you already own?
What were you saying about cost?
Here's a hint its called economics. You use your client states as markets, preferably to sell them crud you can't sell at home. You buy from them so they have money to spend. This means:
1. You don't need so many troops to be deployed.
2. Attacking you becomes too uneconomical to consider. Japan will never attack the US so long as the current trade relationship exists ... it would be too unprofitable.
3. You are buying the peace from the masses.
You have to pay regardless ... either for the occupation costs and counter terrorism costs ... or to get them snared in your economic hegemony.
Yes, yes. Sure. And in all that time, none of them will ever get familiar with the technology, the Empire won't set up manufacturing facilities in the AQ because it's silly to keep everything bottlenecked through the wormhole.
Eventually that would happen too, and the so-called client states may think they now have a chance against their far off rulers, and rebel.
With a 1,500 (being ludicriously generous) : 5,000,000 (being conservative) numerical disadvatange? Get freaking real. Unless they have the technobabble to collapse the wormhole they don't stand a chance. So long as you maintain a sufficient force at the wormhole they have no hope of winning.
Besides which their galaxy is divided ... if they fight you one of the other client states will be more than happy to take over.
To start off with, there's Mr. Tharkûn's assumptions regarding the size of a Federation Resistance to the Imperial conquest, which for want of a better term for it, we can refer to, accurately enough, as the Bullshit Ratio Rule. In this, Mr. Tharkûn assumes that there exists a fixed proportion of fanatical resistors in a given conquered population which kicks into operation as if it were a mathematical law applicable in all situations and in all population groups.
Nope I assume that it won't be less than said percent. I have a theory backed by evidence, both historical and on screen. Where is yours?
However, we know from far too many examples in history that there is no such Proportionality Rule.
NAME THEM. Resistance movements against occupation forces (and not client states) with less than .01%.
The creation, sustenance, and growth of a resistance movement depends upon several key factors: chances of eventual victory, morale of the conquering force, political and military strength of the conquering power, and external assistance from an equal opposed power to the conquerors.
Really what are the Kurds chances of success? Which external powers are backing them? What is the morale of the Turkish army?
With too many negatives in those categories, the resistance never expands beyond a very small group of terrorist fanatics who will never be able to achieve anything significant and in all likelihood will be hunted down and eliminated.
Small is relative. A small amount of troops to the US are other countries entire armies.
At the height of its power, the Empire's political structure is stable and its military forces powerful enough to subjugate galaxies, assisted by a massive starfleet and superweapons such as Death Stars.
Really when was this? Its political structure was tied to one (two) man and when he died the political structure tore itself apart. Not the hallmark of stability.
Under those conditions, the morale of the Imperial Expeditionary Forces is likely to be in a very high state through all ranks up to and including the command levels, as is typical in any imperial military force which has experienced continuous victory (such as Rome at the height of her power).
Their morale is irrelevant. There are multiple modes of resistance. One is to kill the enemy until they bleed out and the soldiers/civillians put pressure on the government to pull out. Another, the one I advocate is to just make it so uneconomical its CHEAPER to pull out.
Yet, Mr. Tharkun insists that his BRR would come into operation automatically. In the course of advancing this argument, he has resorted to pulling some very arbitrary figures out of thin air to prove the probable existence of "legions of suicidal nutjobs" willing to fight for the Sacred Cause of Federation to the bitter, bloody end, somehow managing to not only survive but endure to realise the eventual victory envisioned by his Mystical Heroic Revolutionary Terrorist Brotherhood. This argument, however, requires him (and us) to ignore some depressing real-life examples from history in which not only has there not been a large Mystical Heroic Revolutionary Terrorist Brotherhood to oppose the conquerors, but those in which said movement has been non-existent.
Nope. Try the Black Hand, try the French Resistance, try the Greek resistance (both formed when there was NO hope of turning Hitler back), try the Chechyan resistance today ...
Notice folks EJ and Deagan talk eloquently about history, yet never provide:
1. Numbers
2. Specific examples
3. Better quantified theories.
Example: the United States never faced any sort of fanatical or even incipient resistance to its occupation of Japan following its unconditional surrender in the wake of the atomic bombing of two of its industrial port cities. Overwhelming firepower has a tendency to discourage resistance and foster submission, and this was certainly the case with the victory over the Japanese Empire. Likewise, in Eastern Europe, the armies of the Soviet Union had rolled over Hitler's legions before capturing the Nazi capital itself. The Soviet military then commenced a 45 year occupation involving the creation of satellite states and military/security forces operating in combination with Red Army regular forces.
Notice folks how the concept of a CLIENT STATE goes right up and over his head. How I have stated on numerous occasions that if the Imps do occupy then they face resistance if they set up a client state they don't. In both of his examples he uses client states. Now why would they use client states, the same reason I advocate their use ... economics.
And if we try to use a historical example to define Tharkûn's Bullshit Ratio Rule, we might try to look at Japan both before and after the American conquest. Japan's last desperate hope to stave off defeat was invested in the Kamikaze Corps. This consisted of a grand total of 750 pilots and officers out of a total Japanese population of 80 million. To
1. The population was 72 million as already noted.
2. Get the numbers right:
"Allied intelligence had established that the Japanese had no more than 2500 aircraft of which they guessed 300 would be deployed in suicide attacks. In August 1945, however; unknown to Allied Intelligence, the Japanese still had 5,651 army and 7,074 navy aircraft, for a total of 12,725 planes of all types ....
When the invasion became imminent, ketsu-Go called for a four fold aerial plan of attack to destroy up to 800 Allied ships. While Allied ships were approaching Japan, but still in the open seas, an initial force of 2,000 army and navy fighters were to fight to the death to control the skies over Kyushu.
A second force of 350 Japanese navy pilots were to attack the main body of the Allied task force to keep it from using its fire support and air cover from protecting the troop carrying transports. While these forces engaged a third force of 825 suicide planes was to hit the American transports. As the invasion convoys approached the beaches, another
2,000 suicide planes were to be launched in waves of 200 to 300, to be used in hour by hour attacks ...
Once the troops were on the beaches, they would face suicide attacks from large numbers of armed civilian and army units, all for the Emperor and their homeland. As American troops advanced inland, booby traps, mine fields, and well hidden defenses would make every foot of the way a bloody battle. Casualties on both sides would be extremely heavy but the suicidal attacks and the lightly armed civilians would be cut down in large numbers by the heavily armed and well trained American units. "
-H. H. Jaekel - Pearl Harbor Survivor
"Twenty-eight million Japanese had become a part of the "National Volunteer Combat Force" and had undergone training in the techniques of beach defense and guerrilla warfare. These civilians were armed with ancient rifles, lunge mines, satchel charges, Molotov cocktails and one-shot black powder mortars. Still others were armed with swords, long bows, axes and bamboo spears.
These special civilian units were to be tactically employed in nighttime attacks, hit and run maneuvers, delaying actions and massive suicide charges at the weaker American positions. "
Yep none their either.
The only reason there was not a suicide force greeting was because the emporer (who was classed as a GOD) told them there would be none. Japan was allowed to become a client state, and for that honor did not dictate suicidal resistance.
In short the whole of Japan, given my figures, had 7,200 suicidal nutjobs who would have fought the Americans to the death had the Americans gone for outright invasion. Given the number of kamikazee pilots and other suicide sqauds explicitly stated in Ketsu-Go, their numbers dwarf my humble estimates, even if the number who decide not to go through with suicide is comparable to those during the war.
Applying the BRR calculation, that's 20 out of a Japanese population of 80 million —a whopping .00027%.
Which gives exactly 810,000 suicidal nutjobs given Mike's estimate of the feddie population. Rounding that is indeed a million.
So much for the Bullshit Ratio Rule.
810,000 is nothing ... hmm?
Nevermind that I explicitly state that client states, like Japan became were not applicable.
In this sub-argument, the Mystical Heroic Revolutionary Terrorist Brotherhood will be clever enough to convert M/AM reactors to bombs or construct them out of available parts
What is so hard about getting quotes right? I stated putting AM into a *container*, as have been seen numerous times in ST, and simply breaking the damn seal is sufficient. Reactors were only talked about in regards to fusion were I said scientists could construct fusion bombs. A single feddie ship carries enough AM for thousands of bombs as I described them.
. Tharkûn falls back upon availability of materiel and expertise to make his scheme feasible, but the lack of any such examples among the two most obvious MHRTBs observed in DS9 belies this claim utterly: had they the resources or technical capacity to construct such bombs, they would surely have done so and employed them against their enemies, as any guerilla force would do in the field.
Why? They are explictly shown using superior weapons in ship to ship combat? In "For the Uniform" we see the Maquis take out a ship, yet even back in TOS nuclear bombs do not allow that to occur ("Balance of Terror"). In short we know they have something superior to a measly kilotonne bomb.
lack of basement nukes of any type suggests either a paucity of resources or expertise to pull off such a feat, and therefore constitutes a negation of this assumption.
Considering they have stronger weapons ... neither.
Sadly, diseases simply do not work this way in any real world, despite making for nail-biting episodes of The Burning Zone or the stuff of dopey movies like The Omega Man or dopier Stephen King miniseries such as The Stand.
Actually they have diseases exactly like this, they were prepared in bioweapons labs in the USSR in the 1980's. Biopreparat had weaponized smallpox, which has a an incubation period of, you guessed it 7 days (low end). Of course we could just disregard people Dr. Kanatjan Alibekov, in favor of nice guy on the internet.
There are only two conceivable vectors of transmission for such a pathogen: airborne spread or personal contact. An airborne infection is likely to cause a large enough initial outbreak of illness that a quarantine of the hot zone would be immediately imposed and the disease isolated before its spread into the general population.
More errors. Its called an incubation period. For instance smallpox is not communicable when you first become infected. If you get 1 communicable person in an airport you can no longer quaruntine. It is no longer effective.
Furthermore, Tharkûn assumes an immediate spread into the Imperial galaxy instead of a spread into the ex-Federation territories by soldiers who would not be rotated back home right away, and a sudden outbreak of a new disease not listed in captured Federation medical records would certainly alert Imperial medical authorities. Tharkûn's Galactic Capt. Trips virus would fail to achieve his desired results for two reasons: diseases which are slow-acting would not result in the annihilation of whole populations (see AIDS), while fast-acting diseases would annihilate the population group within a hot zone so quickly that nobody would survive to spread the infection beyond it (see Ebola).
Yet another false dilemna. You do have virii, like small pox, which are neither slow acting, nor fast acting enough to allow for the creation of hotzones. It is a continuum, not a dichotomy. Indeed one very nice Russian bioweapon has symptoms resembling the flu, however when the immune system finally is able to destroy it, the vector has programmed the immune system to attack the mylen on the nerves. This attack does not occur until after the patient is DISEASE FREE. Unfortunately Patrick is using data from natural virii (whose "goal in life is survival") and not egineered weapons (such as the Russians have developed).
In this theory, the Empire would not consider the cost of maintaining an occupation of a relatively worthless territory to justify the effort and so would pull out with a siiff-enough resistance from the Mystical Heroic Revolutionary Terrorist Brotherhood. This bizarre theory ignores the logical supposition that an Imperial conquest of the ST galaxy would have been initiated for solid, definiable, material reasons and pursued for tangible goals, which underpins any enterprise of war by any nation in history.
And yet not one of you can give any numbers. I have yet to see anything resembling a cost benifit analysis from your side, in spite of the fact that you claim the conclusions which can only be found by one.
As for worthless military conquests: The Falklands, The Eritrean Border Wars, the Ruso-Finnish wars ... all were fought over worthless territories.
It almost goes without saying that it is invoked by Tharkûn purely as an artificial mechanism to disadvantage the Empire in this debate while granting maximum advantage to the Mystical Heroic Revolutionary Terrorist Brotherhood's effort to liberate the smashed United Federation of Planets.
It goes without saying that Imperials think they can get something out for a reasonable cost. However we've never seen the Imperials behaving arrogantly, have we
He presupposes a will to resist amongst the Federationists, where the surrender of Betazed during the Dominion War and that of the Enteprise crew in the TNG episode "Rascals" argues exactly the opposite.
And where "For the Uniform", "The Maquis", etc. argue directly for it. Seeing as I claim only 1 in 10,000 will join such a resistance I have shown more than enough examples to justify this (again QUANTIFY the data, how many feddies seen in all of ST, 100,000? The number of Maquis seen is much more than 1 in 10,000).
. When reminded of the inconvenient fact of Betazed's surrender, Tharkûn then asked us to accept as evidence of Federationist Iron a novel which has no official standing and zero effect upon the continuity of the Trek universe.
More lies. When pointed with that surrender (something I never denied) I said that we have no evidence that all the civillians rolled over and capitulated. "For the record" I offered the book, more as a courtesy than as evidence. Patrick seems to beleive using a patronizing tone, ignoring all counter examples
. He points to "scores" of DMZ colonists who "filled" the ranks of the Maquis but cannot provide any actual numbers to back the force-level of this Mystical Heroic Revolutionary Terrorist Brotherhood —without, of course, assuming an arbitrary population of the DMZ and invoking his Bullshit Ratio Rule.
Count them. Doing the quick math from screenshots, known characters there are 6 in "The Maquis". Eddington and Yates make 8. Ro and Riker make 10. Chakotay, Torres, Suder, Hogan, Ayala, Dalby, Henly, Dendera, Odonnel and Carlson. Yep there is 20.
That's ignoring the ones seen when Eddington Dies, all of the Maquis when Ro joins up, and Torres friends we see in the holodec.
In short yes scores is accuerate. And further note this is not a case of conquest ... everyone in the Cardassian DMZ is there of their OWN FREE WILL.
He ignores every example in history of whole nations cowed into submission by the threat of overwhelming force (e.g. Rome, the Mongols, the United States, the Soviet Union) and ignores examples of whole empires maintained without resort to very large numbers of troops in proportion to the overall population (e.g. Rome's far-flung empire, extending from Britian in the extreme west to Asia Minor in the East, was held for over 500 years by an army numbering less than a half-million soldiers).
Rome had a population of 55,000,000, with 1/2 a million soldiers that works out to 110 civvies per soldier ... damn right on par with the figures listed from Germany. Using that ratio with the feddies gives 2.7 BILLION troops needed by the Imps. Oh damn that's higher than my conservative figures.
In closing guys, read the numbers. You have yet to cite an example with less than 400:1 civvies per soldier (which means 750,000,000 troops), EVERY DAMN ONE OF YOUR EXAMPLES IS CONSISTENT WITH MY NUMBERS. I've been consistly saying millions of resistors (which Patrick's BS number gives us if we take a slightly less conservative population estimate of the federation's size) and hundreds of millions/billions of troops to occupy. The math plays out, and the funny thing is even their much lauded examples (Rome, Japan, etc.) STILL FALL IN MY RANGES.
So now we shall see. Will Patrick admit that even with the numbers he himself derived and provided ... MY NUMBERS WERE CORRECT or will he keep on ignoring these things little "details"? Will he continue to say that millions of resistors is unreasonable?
Remember I've been assuming an average of 2 billion for feddie core world ... this is far lower than should be assumed, but Iwas trying to be generous. Let's say 5 billion a pop, with Patrick's .00027% that works out to:
5,000,000,000 * 150 * .0000027 = 2.025 BILLION resistors.
Using his example of a low maintaince occupation (Japan, 180,000 troops for 72,000,000 civvies) he will need 1.875 billion troops.
So Patrick have the cajones to stick to the numbers you stated did no "resort to very large numbers of troops in proportion to the overall population" and admit similar proportions would require hundreds of millions if not billions of troops?
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