Identification Cards

phongn · Post by **phongn** » 2003-11-14 11:26pm

Admiral Valdemar wrote:You'll never stamp out counterfeiters entirely, just lessen the number that can actually compete. These cards, from what I could see, have the data firmly set into the card, I don't recall a SIM like chip in the thing like most credit cards and phone cards have now. But it's early days yet and time will tell whether this makes a difference or not.

Those chips aren't inherently secure; there are ways to copy them and even overwrite them despite numerous protection schemes (including self-destruct acid). Encryption will help, but that strongly depends on key security.

dummnutzer · Post by **dummnutzer** » 2003-11-14 11:58pm

BlkbrryTheGreat wrote:Im sure a fair number of dead German Buracrats are laughing and rolling in their graves right now. (que German accent) " Paperz Please!"

Some remarks by a living German bureaucrat:

IDs are not the problem. They are only a small problem in a free society, and a society can be less than free without IDs.

The UK, even without IDs, is ranked quite low on freedom of the press, even lower than the US. Much lower than e.g. Germany with its mandatory IDs.

British cities with their pervasive network of video cameras look quite Orwellian, even without any IDs.

SAS agents needed no IDs to conduct extra-judicial killings (a.k.a. murder) on British subjects e.g. in Gibraltar.

UK police officers were quite able to extract false confessions by torturing Irishmen without any national ID.

UK criminal courts were quite willing to use these confessions to incarcerate innocent men, ignoring obvious evidence of torture.

The "debate" about an overdue reform of the British Criminal Justice System seems, IMHO, to be mainly geared towards getting a higher conviction rate by reducing the procedural protection of the rights of the accused. Combine this with the lack of a written constitution, and You will soon be better of in a French Criminal court!

So IDs are no real threat to British Liberties. There seem to be graver problems in the UK, e.g. the lack of a constitution, the outdated legal system, the (German) Royals, the Murdoch press ...

Sarevok · Post by **Sarevok** » 2003-11-15 02:02am

You'll never stamp out counterfeiters entirely, just lessen the number that can actually compete. These cards, from what I could see, have the data firmly set into the card, I don't recall a SIM like chip in the thing like most credit cards and phone cards have now. But it's early days yet and time will tell whether this makes a difference or not.

Data is stored on the chip in binary format. That means by editing this data you can change of digital ID systems.

Dahak · Post by **Dahak** » 2003-11-15 06:00am

MKSheppard wrote:
Dahak wrote: As soon as you get 16, you'll get one, and have to carry it with you at all times (unless your not too far from your registered living place). Not carrying is an offense (dunno how much Euros it actually costs...)
*Snaps off Hitler salute*

Oh sorry, I just have that instinctive reaction whenever I see statist
bullshit like that.

Just because we do things very differently from your country, and that WAYS before Hitler ever came to power, doesn't make it fascist or something. You can stuff your disgusting Hitler devotion back to wherever it came.
I live in a free country.

Post by **Gandalf** » 2003-11-15 08:56am

I don't mind the idea of compulsory ID. The only real problem is counterfitting and such. So we can just make it be in conjunction with a retina scan.

What have I got to hide?

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2003-11-15 09:06am

Gandalf wrote:What have I got to hide?

Whatever deep dark dirty secrets you wouldn't want to see the light of day.

I do think compulsory IDs is a bit much. It sounds rather draconian. And it does open up the possibilities of abuse, though that would happen regardless. Is there anything that can realistically be done to prevent this from occurring, however?

Post by **Gandalf** » 2003-11-15 10:31am

Stofsk wrote:
Gandalf wrote:What have I got to hide?
Whatever deep dark dirty secrets you wouldn't want to see the light of day.

All I've got to hide is $150+ of video late fees across 4 stores.

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2003-11-15 10:52am

I see no reason for a compulsory ID. I feel extreme unease at the thought that you could simply be stopped and fined for not carrying it.

RedImperator · Post by **RedImperator** » 2003-11-15 11:15am

Gandalf wrote:What have I got to hide?

That's not the point. The question is: what compelling reason is there for the government to mandate free citizens carry it, and punish those who, for whatever reason, chose not to?

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2003-11-15 11:21am

What have I got to hide?

Well, if you've got nothing to hide, there's no reason why you would be opposed to the government reading your mail, listening in on your phone conversations, that sort of thing. While these things do not necessarily follow ID cards (that would be a slippery slope, and slippery slopes are bad!) the What have I got to hide? mentality is a dangerous one.

Sharp-kun · Post by **Sharp-kun** » 2003-11-15 03:16pm

Sooner we get them the better. I'm getting sick of all the idiots saying its the end of freedom etc....

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2003-11-15 03:38pm

I don't see a problem with it at all.

The_Nice_Guy · Post by **The_Nice_Guy** » 2003-11-15 04:14pm

I see that there's a wide disparity of opinions on ID cards. Interesting...

The Wobbly Guy

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2003-11-16 12:39am

phongn wrote:In theory you could use a smartcard with some sort of public key infrastructure in place. The secret key would be be held by the government only and given a decent encryption algorithm it'd be near impossible to break within a usable period of time. Various public keys could be used to access the data (for example, a police officer might be able to access the driver's license portion but not the passport portion).

However, if somehow the secret key was leaked then it's all over and every card in circulation would have to be considered suspect. In addition, an 'inside source' could also overwrite the card.

There's no reason to have a master key that works for every card. Each card could have one public key owned by you, and a private key that the government has.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2003-11-16 12:45am

Durandal wrote: There's no reason to have a master key that works for every card. Each card could have one public key owned by you, and a private key that the government has.

Reminds me of the "Clipper Chip" proposed by the Clintonistas almost
a decade ago - that died a messy death from privacy advocates

Stuart Mackey · Post by **Stuart Mackey** » 2003-11-16 02:42am

dummnutzer wrote:
So IDs are no real threat to British Liberties. There seem to be graver problems in the UK, e.g. the lack of a constitution, the outdated legal system, the (German) Royals, the Murdoch press ...

The constituion is not the issue so much as the people in politics, thats true of any nation.

Oh, what do the royals have to do with anything?
Btw, the Royals are about as German as a American with an Irish last name who's family has been there for four generations

Lord Pounder · Post by **Lord Pounder** » 2003-11-16 09:33am

I have no problem with the introduction of ID cards. I do bristle at being fold it's required by law. Most people in the UK carry Mobile Phones, this makes us tagged wheather we like it or not.

BTW dummnutzer those "British Citizens" the SAS shot where IRA men and deserved everything they got. And CCTV is neccessary for coping with crime. Maybe your one of these asshole anarchists who believe than any law is bad.

Crazedwraith · Post by **Crazedwraith** » 2003-11-16 09:54am

we don't need ID cards! We need IDS cards so we can tell who are former tory leaders

phongn · Post by **phongn** » 2003-11-16 01:33pm

MKSheppard wrote:Reminds me of the "Clipper Chip" proposed by the Clintonistas almost
a decade ago - that died a messy death from privacy advocates

Wasn't that thing essentially a governmented-mandated backdoor into any encryption scheme?

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-11-16 01:46pm

Dahak wrote:Just because we do things very differently from your country, and that WAYS before Hitler ever came to power, doesn't make it fascist or something. You can stuff your disgusting Hitler devotion back to wherever it came.
I live in a free country.

With your "free" speech, right?

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2003-11-16 04:32pm

Crazedwraith wrote:we don't need ID cards! We need IDS cards so we can tell who are former tory leaders

*Smacks Crazedwraith over the head with Ian Hislop*

Andrew J. · Post by **Andrew J.** » 2003-11-16 06:13pm

RedImperator wrote:
Gandalf wrote:What have I got to hide?
That's not the point. The question is: what compelling reason is there for the government to mandate free citizens carry it, and punish those who, for whatever reason, chose not to?

So that the government can always keep track of what you are and what you're doing, make sure you're activites are sufficiently patriotic, and terminate you if they're not.

Duh.

Dahak · Post by **Dahak** » 2003-11-16 06:43pm

Illuminatus Primus wrote:
Dahak wrote:Just because we do things very differently from your country, and that WAYS before Hitler ever came to power, doesn't make it fascist or something. You can stuff your disgusting Hitler devotion back to wherever it came.
I live in a free country.

With your "free" speech, right?

We have free speech, in the given limits. As long as you do not infringe upon the rights of others (which is of a higher quality in our constitution), don't spout out Nazi propaganda...

We *are* not the USA, and do not *have* to do the things like you do.

Basic Law, Article 1, paragraph 1:
Human dignity shall be inviolable. To respect and protect it shall be the duty of all state authority.

Article 2, paragraph 1:
Every person shall have the right to free development of his personality insofar as he does not violate the rights of others or offend against the constitutional order or the moral law.

Article 5, paragraphs 1 and 2:
(1) Every person shall have the right freely to express and disseminate his opinions in speech, writing, and pictures and to inform himself without hindrance from generally accessible sources. Freedom of the press and freedom of reporting by means of broadcasts and films shall be guaranteed. There shall be no censorship.

(2) These rights shall find their limits in the provisions of general laws, in provisions for the protection of young persons, and in the right to personal honor.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-11-16 07:22pm

We have free speech, in the given limits.

Then it's not really free speech, now is it?

Post by **Colonel Olrik** » 2003-11-16 07:31pm

Stormbringer wrote:
We have free speech, in the given limits.

Then it's not really free speech, now is it?

Better that than letting Nazi's wannabes organize parades inside our cities. We have the right to speak freely as long as it's not about how all jews, blacks and muslims should be shot on sight. I don't really find that right worthy of defense.

Can you repeteadly shout "death to the president" right outside the White House without getting arrested, btw?