Could the DS destroy all the borg

[Bill Door]

[Tough Italian Mobster]What ever you do, please leave Stravo intact enough to continue Starcrossed... I like Starcrossed... I will not be happy if it cannot be continued...[/Tough Italian Mobster]


[little lisping girl]...I might cry...[little lisping girl]

[Slartibartfast]

I vote No. I don't think the Death Star could wipe the Borg. It's too much damn work.

[The Yosemite Bear]

R2 could wipe out the Voyager era borg.....

[Gandalf]

R2 could wipe out the Voyager era borg.....

I could wipe out the Voy Borg on my own. All I need is some chwing gum and twine.

[JME2]

Remember that the Borg's transwarp conduit system was nuked by Janeway, so they're limited to standard transwarp (which takes months to traverse the galaxy). A finished DS2 could literally raze/destroy their planets faster than they can run away. Game over, man. Game over.

Glad to see I'm not the only person here who loves the 'Game Over' quote from Aliens.

[Sothis]

I'd give the Borg weeks, a couple of months at most before they were extinct.

[Shrykull]

A completed and fully operational DS2 would give the entire ST galaxy hell, not just the Borg.

Nah, not against say a dowd or the cytherians who live in the galactic core.

[Durandal]

I vote No. I don't think the Death Star could wipe the Borg. It's too much damn work.

While it certainly would be time-consuming and somewhat repetitive (no doubt the crew would lose the excitement that comes with destroying planetary masses and sending their ejecta hurtling out at sizable fractions of c after the first 10 or so), there is simply no way the Borg could stop them.

[Darth Wong]

A completed and fully operational DS2 would give the entire ST galaxy hell, not just the Borg.

Nah, not against say a dowd or the cytherians who live in the galactic core.

Justify your claim. The dowd was never observed to do anything but bitch-slap the Enterprise. Even by his own testimony, he only wiped out one civilization which was probably (like every other empire in Star Trek) based around one planet (note: this means the DS could have done the same thing quite easily). He could not simply erase the memories of the Enterprise crew to make them go away, he could not teleport the ship away, he could not telepathically seize control of them, he could not block Troi's telepathic ability to detect his actions without using that bizarre telepathic "noise" method, etc.

As for the Cytherians, what evidence do you have that they possess any weapons worth speaking of? They have a neat method of getting people to come visit their planet, but they appear to have no spacecraft whatsoever, and we have no evidence that they possess weapons of any kind. How do you know the Empire couldn't simply go to their planet (a miniscule piece of land in a large galaxy which they wouldn't even be interested in until they accidentally run across it) and blow it up if they get pissed off?

It seems to me that you're using the "mystery = omnipotence" logic that is widely employed by fundies everywhere.

[Darth Yoshi]

Better idea for punishing Stravo.


I hearby sentence you to watch S&M porn of Captain Katherine Janeway doing it with a Fungi from Yoggoloth for 24 hours a day straight, feed directly into your brain, for the next 365 days

NO! We need his brain intact for Starcrossed and Twilight War!

Where is the Queen Borg based? Is she on a Cube, at the Unimatrix, or can she manifest herself anywhere in the Collective's reach? If she's at the Unimatrix, then destroying the Borg will be a snap. Otherwise, it'll take a while.

[Praxis]

Remember that the Borg's transwarp conduit system was nuked by Janeway, so they're limited to standard transwarp (which takes months to traverse the galaxy). A finished DS2 could literally raze/destroy their planets faster than they can run away. Game over, man. Game over.

Didn't they say that the Borg had 6 in the galaxy? Janeway only nuked one. Well, unless the virus spread from the Borg Queen to every transwarp hub. Not sure about that- the Queen who was infected was in the transwarp hub which would explain why it blew up, but why did Unimatrix Zero blow up unless that virus had some seriously fast spreading times?

We don't know if only one hub was nuked, or if they all went down the drain. Then again, if they're all there, then it'll be easier on the Death Star. I can imagine this:

Death Star scans the nearby sectors and detects a transwarp hub.

Death Star nukes the transwarp hub.

Death Star finds another transwarp hub and destroys it.

Borg start reinforcing transwarp hubs.

Death Star destroys two more transwarp hubs, this time killing a whole lot of Borg Cubes in the proccess.

The Borg send hundreds (even thousands if they can afford it) of cubes to protect the last hub.

Since all the Borg are now in one place, the Death Star waltzes in, nukes them all, and nukes the hub.

ta-da, there goes half the Borg collective in one big battle

[Drooling Iguana]

Better idea for punishing Stravo.


I hearby sentence you to watch S&M porn of Captain Katherine Janeway doing it with a Fungi from Yoggoloth for 24 hours a day straight, feed directly into your brain, for the next 365 days

NO! We need his brain intact for Starcrossed and Twilight War!

Where is the Queen Borg based? Is she on a Cube, at the Unimatrix, or can she manifest herself anywhere in the Collective's reach? If she's at the Unimatrix, then destroying the Borg will be a snap. Otherwise, it'll take a while.

My theory is that the Queen is a program that exists within the collective, and grows bald female bodies whenever Alice Kirge is available.

[Anarchist Bunny]

Whoa whoa whoa, don't do that to Stravo, you might damage his hands, take a crow bar to his shins, he'll still beable to right starcrosseds after that.

And depending on the fleet numbers of the Borg (I forget my latested calcs for the ISD vs cubes) an single ISD coulld take the entire Borg Navy in waves of 1000.

[YT300000]

Remember that the Borg's transwarp conduit system was nuked by Janeway, so they're limited to standard transwarp (which takes months to traverse the galaxy). A finished DS2 could literally raze/destroy their planets faster than they can run away. Game over, man. Game over.

Didn't they say that the Borg had 6 in the galaxy?

No. There are six in the galaxy, but the Borg only control(led) one.

[Metrion Cascade]

Remember that the Borg's transwarp conduit system was nuked by Janeway, so they're limited to standard transwarp (which takes months to traverse the galaxy). A finished DS2 could literally raze/destroy their planets faster than they can run away. Game over, man. Game over.

Didn't Seven say the Borg had six of those transwarp hubs?

[Metrion Cascade]

Remember that the Borg's transwarp conduit system was nuked by Janeway, so they're limited to standard transwarp (which takes months to traverse the galaxy). A finished DS2 could literally raze/destroy their planets faster than they can run away. Game over, man. Game over.

Didn't they say that the Borg had 6 in the galaxy?

No. There are six in the galaxy, but the Borg only control(led) one.

Who said that? The quote I remember was Janeway saying the Borg had six, and 7 of 9 confirming it.

[Metrion Cascade]

One must wonder at the speed of Borg telecommunications. Seven of Nine knew about the E-E's involvement with the Phoenix launch. Possibly explained by the Enterprise episode involving them (assuming the Borg transmission in that episode was FTL). And even if the Queen is just a program, that must be hellified wi-fi if the memories of her relationship with Picard got back to the Collective after BOBW.

[YT300000]

Who said that? The quote I remember was Janeway saying the Borg had six, and 7 of 9 confirming it.

Don't remember exact lines, but it was something like this:

Janeway: Is that what I think it is?
Seven: Yes, it is a transwarp hub.
Janeway: But you once told me there are only six in the entire galaxy.
Seven: There are.

If the Borg had more, they would have used them. On second thought, considering they only sent one ship to assimilate Earth, raise shields a couple seconds after being attacked, let people waltz around inside their ships unimpeded until they attack something, and stumble towards their enemies like zombies (to name a few short comings) that assumption may not be correct. The Borg are strangely illogical for machines.

[Shrykull]

The DS should eventually be able to destroy the Borg Collective, although the Borg may spread faster than the DS can destroy stuff.

I think just the problem would be it running out of ammo, they'd have to destroy millions of cubes and thousands of planets.

[Darth Wong]

The DS should eventually be able to destroy the Borg Collective, although the Borg may spread faster than the DS can destroy stuff.

I think just the problem would be it running out of ammo, they'd have to destroy millions of cubes and thousands of planets.

Chakotay's idle speculation, not backed up by a shred of evidence or even the suggestion that he would have sufficient intel to come up with such an estimate. Or do you seriously think they have thousands of cubes per planet? If so, why don't we see them?

[Shrykull]

The DS should eventually be able to destroy the Borg Collective, although the Borg may spread faster than the DS can destroy stuff.

I think just the problem would be it running out of ammo, they'd have to destroy millions of cubes and thousands of planets.

Chakotay's idle speculation, not backed up by a shred of evidence or even the suggestion that he would have sufficient intel to come up with such an estimate. Or do you seriously think they have thousands of cubes per planet? If so, why don't we see them?

Hmm, well even if they did, could they fire the superlaser and it would cut through any cubes en route to the planet, then the resulting explosion would destroy all the cubes around it? The planet would explode even more violently than Alderaan since it doesn't even have a shield. And I wonder even if thousands or millions of cubes swarmed the DS in space if they could even get through it's shield.

[Robert Walper]

The DS should eventually be able to destroy the Borg Collective, although the Borg may spread faster than the DS can destroy stuff.

I think just the problem would be it running out of ammo, they'd have to destroy millions of cubes and thousands of planets.

Chakotay's idle speculation, not backed up by a shred of evidence or even the suggestion that he would have sufficient intel to come up with such an estimate. Or do you seriously think they have thousands of cubes per planet? If so, why don't we see them?

Technically, we haven't seen thousands of Star Destroyers either.

The only point at which seeing thousands of cube per planet might have been expected is during the Species 8472 war. However, we never saw the beginning of that war, only the last little bit of it. According to Tuvok's statement based upon info gathered from destroyed Borg vessels(ref: STVOY "Scorpion"), the Borg had only encountered Species 8472 at least a half dozen times, each time losing swiftly. According to Seven(ref: STVOY "Prey"), Species 8472 destroyed hundreds of Borg worlds. Thus, vast scale battles having already taken place before Voyager even showed up is hardly unlikely. In fact, given the Borg were willing to negotiate by the time Voyager showed up is leads further credibility to this idea. The Borg might technically have millions of vessels, but there is no reason to assume they are all cubes. Additionally, one not need assume they are all going to hang around Borg space either. According to individuals in Unimatrix Zero, Borg vessels are spread throughout the entire galaxy, not just Borg space. Even assuming with millions of cubes at hand, their density of ships in any one area wouldn't be that impressive given the volume of the Milky Way. Transwarp FTL factors would allow the Borg to amass large numbers of cubes togather quickly, but as I said during the Species 8472 war, we only saw the last little bit of it. The Borg considered themselves close to defeat, yet they could still muster hundreds of cubes to protect just eight planets. And even after the war, they still had the capability to launch an assault upon Species 116 with hundreds of cubes(ref: STVOY "Hope and Fear").

[Robert Walper]

R2 could wipe out the Voyager era borg.....

I could wipe out the Voy Borg on my own. All I need is some chwing gum and twine.

With your arrogance, you'd make an excellent Borg drone.

[Darth Wong]

Chakotay's idle speculation, not backed up by a shred of evidence or even the suggestion that he would have sufficient intel to come up with such an estimate. Or do you seriously think they have thousands of cubes per planet? If so, why don't we see them?

Technically, we haven't seen thousands of Star Destroyers either.

Official literature states it clearly, and the construction of a single Death Star beggars the construction of a few thousand Star Destroyers. We also saw thousands of ships ringing Naboo, from a single shipping corporation.

The only point at which seeing thousands of cube per planet might have been expected is during the Species 8472 war. However, we never saw the beginning of that war, only the last little bit of it. According to Tuvok's statement based upon info gathered from destroyed Borg vessels(ref: STVOY "Scorpion"), the Borg had only encountered Species 8472 at least a half dozen times, each time losing swiftly. According to Seven(ref: STVOY "Prey"), Species 8472 destroyed hundreds of Borg worlds. Thus, vast scale battles having already taken place before Voyager even showed up is hardly unlikely.

So? How does any of this change the fact that there's not a shred of evidence for millions of cubes and Chakotay has no way of knowing how many cubes the Borg actually have?

In fact, given the Borg were willing to negotiate by the time Voyager showed up is leads further credibility to this idea. The Borg might technically have millions of vessels, but there is no reason to assume they are all cubes.

If we're including small craft, then they probably have millions of vessels. Mind you, that's a bit like pointing out that America has millions of cars. But the assumption (made in this thread by somebody else) that they have millions of full-fledged cubes is totally without justification.

Additionally, one not need assume they are all going to hang around Borg space either. According to individuals in Unimatrix Zero, Borg vessels are spread throughout the entire galaxy, not just Borg space.

Right, that's why it took six months for a cube to reach the Federation after the Borg decided they were interested in them. And of course, when under attack for months, they would continue to keep their ships spread out rather than bringing them in to defend their home territory.

Even assuming with millions of cubes at hand, their density of ships in any one area wouldn't be that impressive given the volume of the Milky Way. Transwarp FTL factors would allow the Borg to amass large numbers of cubes togather quickly, but as I said during the Species 8472 war, we only saw the last little bit of it. The Borg considered themselves close to defeat, yet they could still muster hundreds of cubes to protect just eight planets.

Or they were killed in deep space. All we heard was a ship count and a casualty count which was not commensurate with the assumption that these were all large cubes.

And even after the war, they still had the capability to launch an assault upon Species 116 with hundreds of cubes(ref: STVOY "Hope and Fear").

Which in turn means that the vast majority of their fleet had not been destroyed, contrary to your assumption. Otherwise they would be in a rebuilding phase, rather than immediately going on the offensive.

[GUTB]

Is there a specific and known reason why the Borg would not simply adjust their sheilds to become impervious to TLs while adjusting their own weapons to defeat the DS sheilds? If we claim that the super laser trumps any cube sheild, what is stopping the Borg from throwing together a super-cube that is three times the size and power of the DS?

Guys, this discussion is silly to the extreme. We're not talking about one cube vs. the whole friggin Federation, we're talking about the ENTIRE COLLECTIVE vs. the DS. I mean jesus christ this is not only stupid it makes you sterile. Just say no.