Microsoft Rivals testify in EU hearings

Glocksman · Post by **Glocksman** » 2003-11-17 03:17pm

Normally, I'm not one to defend MS, but this is just insane:

link

First, it contends that by including a media player in the Windows package, Microsoft unfairly promotes the product at the expense of rivals.

Give me a break. The reason I use Media Player over RealPlayer is that Media player actually works more than it crashes.

Real Player is a buggy, spyware laden, crash prone piece of shit.
That's why I don't like Real Player. MS's bundling of media player has nothing to do with my preference.

It's kind of funny that WMP hasn't hurt the use of Winamp very much.
After all, if the bundling of WMP hurts MS's rivals, why is Winamp popular?

Perhaps the coneheads at Real Networks ought to work on debugging their product and then perhaps more people will use it.

phongn · Post by **phongn** » 2003-11-17 03:36pm

...

Microsoft has included some sort of media player since Windows 3.1 and only now they're bitching about it? There may be the 'force out the competition' angle to WMP, but it's a bit late for this, methinks.

Einhander Sn0m4n · Post by **Einhander Sn0m4n** » 2003-11-17 04:03pm

And besides, we all know Winamp and Irfanview with all the plugins are T3h Sup3r!0r anyway, so I don't know what MS and Real's sissyfied slap-fight's all about.

Real has a proprietary format that they use to foist buggy, spyware-ridden code on us, and MS simply has buggy code that's packed fulla deliberately brain-damaged misfeatures (Embedded Scripts in Video Media, most commonly seen as WMVs that have Javascript Porn Pop-Up Ads, comes to mind as particularly Evil. It's funny how they always 'happen' to use IE no matter what Real Browser may be installed too...

)

Vertigo1 · Post by **Vertigo1** » 2003-11-17 04:27pm

Not to mention that Real's movie and audio formats suck ass. They sound (and look) like utter shit, yet still have the large ass file sizes.

Zac Naloen · Post by **Zac Naloen** » 2003-11-17 04:29pm

i never use wmp, always musicmatch jukebox

Shinova · Post by **Shinova** » 2003-11-17 04:31pm

I use the old windows media player to watch videos (plays movies, none of that extra luggage that comes with the new one).

Winamp for music.

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2003-11-17 06:48pm

The guy testifying for Real probably isn't referring to the actual application itself, but the media format. Microsoft are basically illegally converting marketshare in one market (operating systems) to marketshare in another one (media formats).

Pu-239 · Post by **Pu-239** » 2003-11-17 08:16pm

At least RealPlayer/Quicktime is cross platform (I think the *nix version doesn't have the loads of crap the windows version does). Then again, it doesn't matter, since my dialup is too slow to DL anything anyway, except overnight.

SPOOFE · Post by **SPOOFE** » 2003-11-18 01:07am

Microsoft are basically illegally converting marketshare in one market (operating systems) to marketshare in another one (media formats).

Until Microsoft, through their code, makea it impossible to install and run Realplayer, I don't see how they're taking the choice away from the consumer. There's nothing that Microsoft does that prevents the consumer from choosing whether or not to download and install any other media player. Or did you just totally miss the OP's example of Winamp?

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2003-11-18 01:19am

SPOOFE wrote:
Microsoft are basically illegally converting marketshare in one market (operating systems) to marketshare in another one (media formats).
Until Microsoft, through their code, makea it impossible to install and run Realplayer, I don't see how they're taking the choice away from the consumer. There's nothing that Microsoft does that prevents the consumer from choosing whether or not to download and install any other media player. Or did you just totally miss the OP's example of Winamp?

Did you totally miss my post about illegally converting a dominant marketshare in one sector to marketshare in another? You do that's illegal, right?

Crayz9000 · Post by **Crayz9000** » 2003-11-18 03:32am

Pu-239 wrote:At least RealPlayer/Quicktime is cross platform (I think the *nix version doesn't have the loads of crap the windows version does). Then again, it doesn't matter, since my dialup is too slow to DL anything anyway, except overnight.

Real actually released their RealOne codecs? Amazing!

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-11-18 03:54am

SPOOFE wrote:
Microsoft are basically illegally converting marketshare in one market (operating systems) to marketshare in another one (media formats).
Until Microsoft, through their code, makea it impossible to install and run Realplayer, I don't see how they're taking the choice away from the consumer.

You don't understand. Microsoft is not making the code impossible to install; they're making it useless by making it impossible for anyone to make a competing software player for WMV files. In short, the problem isn't the player; it's the secret file format. Microsoft's greatest weapon has always been secret, deliberately obfuscated file formats and communications protocols, because these protocols are designed to "lock in" users.

"Want to see that video? Well, you have no choice but to use our player, since that particular video is only available in WMV format, which nobody else can play because it's secret and we'll sue anyone who tries to crack it!"

This doesn't bother you at all? You don't see the problem?

There's nothing that Microsoft does that prevents the consumer from choosing whether or not to download and install any other media player. Or did you just totally miss the OP's example of Winamp?

Winamp is still viable because Microsoft has been unable to supplant MP3 with WMA. Let's suppose WMA (or some other fucked-up format; you never know what the future may bring) catches on and eventually becomes dominant. What will happen to WinAmp then? That's right; crash and burn.

Microsoft knows the real war is in the file formats; theirs are secret while everyone else has traditionally used open, documented file formats. This means they can play everyone else's files, but nobody else can play their files. If you don't see how this is unfair competition and unhealthy for the industry, you're missing an awful lot of brain cells.

Undocumented, proprietary file formats and communication protocols should be made illegal. People should be able to compete on the basis of their player quality, not "exclusive content".

Sarevok · Post by **Sarevok** » 2003-11-18 06:51am

You don't understand. Microsoft is not making the code impossible to install; they're making it useless by making it impossible for anyone to make a competing software player for WMV files. In short, the problem isn't the player; it's the secret file format. Microsoft's greatest weapon has always been secret, deliberately obfuscated file formats and communications protocols, because these protocols are designed to "lock in" users

I disagree. The Windows API which is used by every single program that runs on Windows is well documented and released to the programmer community. Microsoft could very well have kept it secret to wipe out it's competitors. Virtualy everything about Windows except the actual source code has been released to the public. (Microsoft even released the source code but only to the PRC).

Regarding the WMV it can be used by third party players. All they have to do is it to use a COM component supplied by Microsoft to decode the WMV format. I have written players using Microsoft technology and their performence is comparable or better than Real.

As for Microsoft keeping file formats secret well that is not completely correct. Microsoft did release the Office file format specifiactions in 1999. As for WMV it is a Microsoft technology and Microsoft has the right to do what ever it wants do with it.

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2003-11-18 10:03am

Pu-239 wrote:At least RealPlayer/Quicktime is cross platform (I think the *nix version doesn't have the loads of crap the windows version does). Then again, it doesn't matter, since my dialup is too slow to DL anything anyway, except overnight.

Windows Media is cross-platform ... sorta. The OS X version is just abysmal, though WMP9 for OS X is somewhat of an improvement. If you gripe about QuickTime on Windows, you've obviously never seen what Mac users have to put up with using Windows Media.

Slartibartfast · Post by **Slartibartfast** » 2003-11-18 12:12pm

I use BSPlayer for many video formats (hate the WINAMP video window, but use it for music & sound). Not sure if BSPlayer is the best but I think it's quite lightweight and has good subtitle support.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-11-18 12:20pm

evilcat4000 wrote:I disagree. The Windows API which is used by every single program that runs on Windows is well documented and released to the programmer community.

And what does that have to do with proprietary file formats and communications protocols? Oh yeah, absolutely nothing. Try again.

Microsoft could very well have kept it secret to wipe out it's competitors. Virtualy everything about Windows except the actual source code has been released to the public. (Microsoft even released the source code but only to the PRC).

Oh really? Could you please find the public documentation for the Windows domain server network authentication protocols for me? They give programmers enough to write software for Windows. They do not actually document everything necessary to make open competition possible.

Regarding the WMV it can be used by third party players. All they have to do is it to use a COM component supplied by Microsoft to decode the WMV format. I have written players using Microsoft technology and their performence is comparable or better than Real.

Are you on drugs? A proprietary format which requires a proprietary component "supplied by Microsoft" is still a proprietary format. This proprietary component need only be written to support platforms that Microsoft chooses to support.

As for Microsoft keeping file formats secret well that is not completely correct. Microsoft did release the Office file format specifiactions in 1999.

You mean the obfuscated ones which can be incorporated into filters but which don't actually cover all of the things that the apps do?

As for WMV it is a Microsoft technology and Microsoft has the right to do what ever it wants do with it.

Yeah right, and Ma Bell invented telephones so they had the right to ... oh wait a minute, they didn't. This is not about a company's "rights"; it is about what's best for the consumer market. That is the whole point of antitrust; what the fuck makes you think that antitrust law exists in order to protect the "rights" of big companies?

Sharp-kun · Post by **Sharp-kun** » 2003-11-18 04:46pm

Darth Wong wrote: This doesn't bother you at all? You don't see the problem?

It's only a problem if people choose to use WMV. If fewpeople bother, then there's no problem.

Microsoft don't force people to encode in WMV.

Pu-239 · Post by **Pu-239** » 2003-11-18 06:29pm

Sharp-kun wrote:
Darth Wong wrote: This doesn't bother you at all? You don't see the problem?
It's only a problem if people choose to use WMV. If fewpeople bother, then there's no problem.

Microsoft don't force people to encode in WMV.

Except the fact that people are stupid and will use whatever is bundled with the computer.

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2003-11-18 07:25pm

Sharp-kun wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:This doesn't bother you at all? You don't see the problem?
It's only a problem if people choose to use WMV. If fewpeople bother, then there's no problem.

Microsoft don't force people to encode in WMV.

No, they just make it a very convenient for streaming media companies to use Windows Media because it works on a large variety of systems because the ability to play Windows Media comes preinstalled on those systems. In other words, they leveraged their monopoly in operating systems to create marketshare in the media player sector. The same is true for Internet Explorer and the web browser sector. Once again, this is illegal. This is the third time I've said this. Can't you Microsoft apologists read?

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-11-18 09:09pm

I'm not trying to be confrontational this time, but I don't see what's wrong with including WMP with Windows.

As for WMV files? I rarely see them, and there are other formats used fairly commonly, so what's the problem?

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-11-18 09:28pm

Durran Korr wrote:I'm not trying to be confrontational this time, but I don't see what's wrong with including WMP with Windows.

As for WMV files? I rarely see them, and there are other formats used fairly commonly, so what's the problem?

Other formats do not preclude the use of Media Player, because they're open. However, WMV precludes the use of competing platforms, because it's not open. Therefore, the only platform which can reliably play everything is Windows, whereas this would not be the case if WMV were documented. Don't you fucking understand the whole idea behind the "embrace and extend" technique?

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-11-18 09:29pm

Sharp-kun wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:This doesn't bother you at all? You don't see the problem?
It's only a problem if people choose to use WMV. If fewpeople bother, then there's no problem.

Microsoft don't force people to encode in WMV.

Bell didn't force people to use telephones either, dumb-ass. It's not a question of whether an anti-competitive practice was forced upon the people; it is only a question of whether it exists.

Slartibartfast · Post by **Slartibartfast** » 2003-11-18 10:31pm

Guys, don't you understand, these are considered UNETHICAL business practices. Things like DUMPING, where you flood the market with free stuff (because you can afford to lose a few bucks) to make your competition go broke, from a "common sense" standpoint you could say they shouldn't be illegal - free market and all that shit - but if these are not controlled, they will bring the industry down and there will be shittiness for all.

Somebody once told me that before the "Great Depression" there weren't such things as safeties like the government intervening in supply/demand issues, fixing some prices, etc, but after that it became obviouos that you can't have a 100% Free Market where everyone can fuck with everyone else like there's no tomorrow and everyone being at the mercy of unethical shit.

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2003-11-18 11:31pm

Durran Korr wrote:I'm not trying to be confrontational this time, but I don't see what's wrong with including WMP with Windows.

This makes it the fourth time I've said it.
By bundling Windows Media Player with Windows (and tying it into the OS so it cannot be removed), Microsoft are illegally leveraging their monopoly in the operating systems market sector to create marketshare in the media player sector.

Since it is impossible to remove Windows Media Player, streaming media content providers will naturally be drawn to it, since their customers will not have to download a player, because it's guaranteed to be on the computer, no matter what. Makes sense from a business perspective, you'd think. But the problem is that Microsoft are a convicted illegal monopoly, and thus they can't just have the same free reign of the market that other businesses might. They were proven to have used anti-competitive and dirty tactics to get where they are, and they have shown to be an untrustworthy company. Thus, they do not get the benefit of the doubt.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-11-18 11:59pm

Alright, I can understand the WMV complaint (even though I don't necessarily agree with it), but not the WMP complaint. Yes, I am aware that it is probably illegal, but I don't see why it should be in this case. It would be an incomplete operating system without a media player.