Genuine military geniuses in fiction

Setzer · Post by **Setzer** » 2003-11-18 07:40am

Let's compile a list of all the sci-fi and fantasy military leaders who are described as military geniuses and live up to their description.

I've gotten sick of reading about "military prodigies" and "elite pilots" who couldn't outfly a child's balloon.

Here's a way to see if they're the real deal: Place them in Ulysses S. Grant's post in the civil war. If it seems like they'll lose (and remember, they can win through logistical superiority even if they are out-fought and out-generaled in every battle) then they don't deserve their reputation.

Faram · Post by **Faram** » 2003-11-18 07:56am

I'll start out with one of the classics:

Odysseus conqurer of Troj

The_Nice_Guy · Post by **The_Nice_Guy** » 2003-11-18 07:58am

No.

Place them in Wellesley's position at Assaye. Or Waterloo. If they can win, kudos to them. They deserve every bit of the acclaim they get.

Hell, if we really want to test these prodigies, have them orchestrate the entire Peninsular campaign against Napoleon's best Marshals, or Washington's campaign against the British.

I'm confident Thrawn would be able to live up to his reputation. Not so sure about Ender though.

The Wobbly Guy

Coalition · Post by **Coalition** » 2003-11-18 08:19am

How about the Roman General Belisaurius from "An Oblique Approach", and the 4 books after that?

In book 1, he manipulates one of the enemy to replace the guards on an India princess from Kushuns (elite troops all of them, and their leader was super-elite), to priests and torturers (the know scripture, and can torture people).

The guards at the palace were protecting the princess from rescue by Rao Raghunoth (4th best assasin in the world). The first group of guards were holding him back. The second group of guards was massacred the night the change was made.

Later books feature the roman army adapting to gunpowder warfare, and setting up a rocket production facility in Aklexandria. They als ally with the Axumites (who are excellent sailors and boarding personnel).

The first 4 books are very good, but the last one seemed a little rushed. Here are the book names:

An Oblique Approach
In the Heart of Darkness
Destiny's Shield
Fortune's Stroke
The Tide of Victory

The key partof the story is that Belisarius has a crystal from the future (Aide), who is trying to help the Romans win. The opposite side (Malwa) has another supercomputer (Link), that is trying to create a pure human race. Both sides are trying to bring technology up to speed, but are forced within the current capabilities (i.e. give tech for a jet engine, but Romans can't build).

Link is focussed on developing superweapons (siege cannons), but hasn't taken the tech base into account (the cannons fire large round stones, with almost ten degrees of inaccuracy).

Aide told the Romans about stirrups, and helped them a lot.

Of course, the series fleshes out both sides, and you see both good and bad on both sides of the war. Link's efficiency is matched by the humor in Aide. The 5 books can be gotten on the Baen CD that comes with the hardback Honor Harrington book, "War of Honor".

Shortie · Post by **Shortie** » 2003-11-18 08:27am

The only minor flaw with that is that Belisarius really existed, and was even more impressive in reality than in fiction.

I do agree with the OP though, I'm tired of heroes being called amazing for no obvious reason. OTOH, there is the problem that it depends on the ability of the author, both in terms of knowing decent tactics and not giving the hero all the advantages.

Anyone in the UK who's been watching Time Commanders will notice that even with all the tech advantages historical battles are not always easy. They'll also notice some where it seems impossible that there was any doubt over the outcome.

The_Nice_Guy · Post by **The_Nice_Guy** » 2003-11-18 08:35am

Well, most of the time the bad guys come down with stupidity disease.

The Wobbly Guy

Dahak · Post by **Dahak** » 2003-11-18 11:15am

White Haven is a very good strategist. And he had to work against Admirals with their brains switched on (McQueen for one...).
Honor harrington might be in that league, too. But she never has commanded anything on that scale yet (and it is doubtable that she'll have any body parts left when she reaches that level...).

Starfire universe genreally has quite cabale commanders, too.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2003-11-18 02:29pm

Setzer wrote: (and remember, they can win through logistical superiority even if they are out-fought and out-generaled in every battle)

Actually, Grant was a very good Strategic commander, he may have lost
battles against the Confederates, but he won his campaigns as a whole,
and came up with some great stuff like seizing vicksburg, which gave the
union complete control over the missippippi river

Setzer · Post by **Setzer** » 2003-11-18 03:11pm

Ahh. I did not know that. Anyway, the point was to place them in a campaign where they wouldn't have to do much, but incompetence could still spell defeat.

CmdrWilkens · Post by **CmdrWilkens** » 2003-11-18 03:29pm

Ender is probably a good candidate given how rather handily he defeated the buggers. I meant eh vessels were 9roughly) equally matched yet he was at a CONSTANT disadvantage for numbers. yes he did have some good two bird with one stone weapons but that isn't enough. To consistently (as in every time) defeat an enemy who is always numerically superior in combat where the N^2 law applies in its most vicious truth is amazingt. I think Ender's string of victories is perhaps the most impressive winning streak for any fictional commander.

Worlds Spanner · Post by **Worlds Spanner** » 2003-11-18 04:11pm

Setzer wrote:Ahh. I did not know that. Anyway, the point was to place them in a campaign where they wouldn't have to do much, but incompetence could still spell defeat.

I thought you were interested in genius, as opposed to competance.

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2003-11-18 04:11pm

I would imagine that the Captain and Croaker both deserve their reputation as highly competant commanders. The former, commanding a band of foreign mercenaries, managed to become the only commander who routinely won battles and the latter orchestrated a massive campaign that galvanized a civilization of pacifists into destroying a sorcerous empire, and neither of their enemies ever fell victim to a case of the idiotics without extremely good reason.

Faram · Post by **Faram** » 2003-11-18 05:22pm

Coalition wrote:The 5 books can be gotten on the Baen CD that comes with the hardback Honor Harrington book, "War of Honor".

Hey I have that CD, thanx for the tip now I must read the books

Setzer · Post by **Setzer** » 2003-11-18 06:36pm

Worlds Spanner wrote:
Setzer wrote:Ahh. I did not know that. Anyway, the point was to place them in a campaign where they wouldn't have to do much, but incompetence could still spell defeat.
I thought you were interested in genius, as opposed to competance.

If genius is rare, I'll settle for competence.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-11-18 06:36pm

MKSheppard wrote:
Setzer wrote: (and remember, they can win through logistical superiority even if they are out-fought and out-generaled in every battle)
Actually, Grant was a very good Strategic commander, he may have lost
battles against the Confederates, but he won his campaigns as a whole,
and came up with some great stuff like seizing vicksburg, which gave the
union complete control over the missippippi river

Plus once he had control of all Union armies and was out leading the AoP, his primary objective was to keep the Army of Northern Virginia constantly engaged so Sherman could cut up Georgia and South Carolina. Winning tactical victories was largely irrelevant and would have been hard to pull of since Grant had to fight at every point of contact to accomplish his goal.

As for fictional military genius, I've yet to read anything that has one.

Brother-Captain Gaius · Post by **Brother-Captain Gaius** » 2003-11-18 08:11pm

Colonel-Commissar Gaunt (from the Gaunt's Ghosts series by Dan Abnett) would certainly qualify as competent, only problem is he is only experienced on the regimental level, and has only once IIRC dealt with anything larger, and that was from working through the chain of command as the higher-ranking officers were killed, deserted, or in one case summarily executed by Gaunt himself IIRC.

Exonerate · Post by **Exonerate** » 2003-11-18 08:25pm

CmdrWilkens wrote:Ender is probably a good candidate given how rather handily he defeated the buggers. I meant eh vessels were 9roughly) equally matched yet he was at a CONSTANT disadvantage for numbers. yes he did have some good two bird with one stone weapons but that isn't enough. To consistently (as in every time) defeat an enemy who is always numerically superior in combat where the N^2 law applies in its most vicious truth is amazingt. I think Ender's string of victories is perhaps the most impressive winning streak for any fictional commander.

And his partner, Bean perhaps... Hell, almost all of the Battle School graduates were amazing...

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-11-18 10:31pm

Ender is probably a good candidate given how rather handily he defeated the buggers.

The problem was he was borderline suicidal and damn near lost his mind. It took them the better part of a month to put him back together.

His other battles offer nothing better in terms of stability. He up and abandoned the Lusitanias he was working to save right when crunch time came and if it weren't for the the freaky Peter-clone they would have been screwed.

He's good but entirely too flaky to be a real commander.

Bean on the other hand is a genuine genius and has the necessary cajonges to do the job. I think really, it could be argued that he's an even better commander than Ender but unfortunately he never got the chance to shine.

Peter Wiggin is as brilliant as Ender, just sociopathic.

CmdrWilkens · Post by **CmdrWilkens** » 2003-11-19 12:18am

All of that is part of the reason why I think Card has created some of the very few true strategic geniuses ever to occupy command positions in any novel. As to stress taking a toll on Ender it doesn't diminish his abilities and it merely makes him more human. Bean I've never paticualrly enjoyed as much (though he has gotten tolerable by the most recent novel). nonetheless both of them qualify as geniuses in the true strategic sense and were they palced in charge of an Army in any of the nigh upon impossible situations dreamed up they likely would have been able to master all of the military problems (though i'd still pick Ender as he seems to have a better grasp for the overall import of his actions which is often needed).

Ace Pace · Post by **Ace Pace** » 2003-11-19 02:05am

If your going to put Ender up, why not Bean? Ender is probebly the better commander, but Bean is also a genius

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-11-19 01:07pm

.As to stress taking a toll on Ender it doesn't diminish his abilities and it merely makes him more human.

It does diminish his abilities by a double wide shitload when he's liable to crack up right when you need him most.

A tactical genius he might be but he's a shitty commander because you can't count on him at all. No army or navy would count on a commander apt to leave them hanging in the middle of a battle. I mean how good would we account Admiral Spruance if in middle of the Battle of Midway he decided he'd had enough and locked himself in his cabin? The fact is Ender is too unreliable to be a real military commander.

StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Genuine military geniuses in fiction

Genuine military geniuses in fiction

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