Delta Flyer vs X-Wing

[Durandal]

Wait a minute. Have we ever even heard of those wingtip lasers firing off-axis? And X-wings don't exactly turn on a dime.

The X-Wing novels make it clear that the lasers have a convergence point.

Care to post an excerpt?

Sorry. Mount Tantiss doesn't have it that I can see, and I don't have the book with me. But Corran Horn specifically deliberates about which range his lasers should converge at for a specific mission. This is kind of weird, since the lasers didn't converge in the X-Wing games, which is what Stackpole based the novels off of. I guess he just couldn't tell the difference between perceived convergence and actual convergence at a zero point.

[Mad]

The SE?

As mentioned, the Special Edition of ANH. Go watch the scene in question, then get back with us. Continuing to require more evidence when all that is required has been given does nobody any good; it just wastes time.

[Metrion Cascade]

The X-Wing novels make it clear that the lasers have a convergence point.

Care to post an excerpt?

Sorry. Mount Tantiss doesn't have it that I can see, and I don't have the book with me. But Corran Horn specifically deliberates about which range his lasers should converge at for a specific mission. This is kind of weird, since the lasers didn't converge in the X-Wing games, which is what Stackpole based the novels off of. I guess he just couldn't tell the difference between perceived convergence and actual convergence at a zero point.

That's pretty specific. Conceded, they can converge ahead of the ship. What of firing sideways or backwards like Fed strips? Any mounts or pivots I'm not familiar with? And do they always carry proton torpedoes? Doesn't matter - if they don't I'd still give Luke however many the ship can carry.

[Ender]

Wait a minute. Have we ever even heard of those wingtip lasers firing off-axis?

Relevent how?

And X-wings don't exactly turn on a dime.

No, but it is still thousands of gs faster and far more manuverable then anything ever seen on Trek.

Delta Flyer, assuming it even sticks around. Although it bears mentioning that I don't think the DF is designed for a single person to pilot and operate the weapons. You might need Tuvok on the phasers to even make it a fight.

Thanks for explaining your reasoning like you are required to do.

[Metrion Cascade]

Wait a minute. Have we ever even heard of those wingtip lasers firing off-axis?

Relevent how?

And X-wings don't exactly turn on a dime.

No, but it is still thousands of gs faster and far more manuverable then anything ever seen on Trek.

Speed I'll give you, no argument. But I've never seen any situation where X-wing maneuverability had to outshine what we've seen the Delta Flyer do. Even if they can pull tighter turns, I've never seen them forced to.

Delta Flyer, assuming it even sticks around. Although it bears mentioning that I don't think the DF is designed for a single person to pilot and operate the weapons. You might need Tuvok on the phasers to even make it a fight.

Thanks for explaining your reasoning like you are required to do.

[Sarevok]

Speed I'll give you, no argument. But I've never seen any situation where X-wing maneuverability had to outshine what we've seen the Delta Flyer do. Even if they can pull tighter turns, I've never seen them forced to.

Did not X-Wings fly into the Death Star in ROTJ. I do not think that the Delta Flyer could pull such sharp turns inside the battlestation.

[Metrion Cascade]

Speed I'll give you, no argument. But I've never seen any situation where X-wing maneuverability had to outshine what we've seen the Delta Flyer do. Even if they can pull tighter turns, I've never seen them forced to.

Did not X-Wings fly into the Death Star in ROTJ. I do not think that the Delta Flyer could pull such sharp turns inside the battlestation.

That would depend on the speed. The tightest turn I ever saw from the DF was at a quarter impulse and had a radius roughly equal to the DF's length. I think it was the episode where they tried to capture a Borg transwarp coil from a wrecked cube. That or the episode with the shuttle race. All in all, I can't think of many examples of either ship's maneuverability really being tested.

[Lord of the Farce]

Speed I'll give you, no argument. But I've never seen any situation where X-wing maneuverability had to outshine what we've seen the Delta Flyer do. Even if they can pull tighter turns, I've never seen them forced to.

Also, their field generators will probably create a lot of distortion, especially in and around the trench. I figure that maneuverability in that sector will be less than point three.

[Ender]

Speed I'll give you, no argument. But I've never seen any situation where X-wing maneuverability had to outshine what we've seen the Delta Flyer do. Even if they can pull tighter turns, I've never seen them forced to.

Did not X-Wings fly into the Death Star in ROTJ. I do not think that the Delta Flyer could pull such sharp turns inside the battlestation.

That would depend on the speed. The tightest turn I ever saw from the DF was at a quarter impulse and had a radius roughly equal to the DF's length. I think it was the episode where they tried to capture a Borg transwarp coil from a wrecked cube. That or the episode with the shuttle race. All in all, I can't think of many examples of either ship's maneuverability really being tested.

DS2 run. Then there are the X-wing novels where they do some newtoniam manuvering.

[Kuja]

And X-wings don't exactly turn on a dime.

Oh?

ROGUE SQUADRON, page 173:

"Watch our tail, Whistler." Corran kicked his shields full forward and dove in straight at the Interceptor. The rangefinder on the targeting computer scrolled numbers off with blurred speed. His crosshairs went green and he fired, but couldn't see how much damage he'd done because of the light show created by the Interceptor's lasers eating away at his shields.

Corran stabbed the right rudder pedal with his foot, swinging the ship around a full 180 degrees. Punching his throttle to full, he killed his momentum, then dropped his engines to zero thrust. With his thumb, he popped his weapons control over to proton torpedoes and got a solid tone when he trapped the fleeing Interceptor in the targeting box. His finger tightened once on the trigger and a single torpedo shot away on a jet of blue flame.

[Connor MacLeod]

Wait a minute. Have we ever even heard of those wingtip lasers firing off-axis? And X-wings don't exactly turn on a dime.

Wedge fires ona TIE fighter in ANH, and the beams converge on the same point (and he is virtually nose to nose with the fighter at this point!) So yes, they do.

[Metrion Cascade]

Wait a minute. Have we ever even heard of those wingtip lasers firing off-axis? And X-wings don't exactly turn on a dime.

Wedge fires ona TIE fighter in ANH, and the beams converge on the same point (and he is virtually nose to nose with the fighter at this point!) So yes, they do.

Durandal also found an example, thanks.

[Metrion Cascade]

Speed I'll give you, no argument. But I've never seen any situation where X-wing maneuverability had to outshine what we've seen the Delta Flyer do. Even if they can pull tighter turns, I've never seen them forced to.

Also, their field generators will probably create a lot of distortion, especially in and around the trench. I figure that maneuverability in that sector will be less than point three.

Point three what?

[Kuja]

Point three what?

Probably .30 or 30% of their normal maneuverability.

[Metrion Cascade]

And X-wings don't exactly turn on a dime.

Oh?

ROGUE SQUADRON, page 173:

"Watch our tail, Whistler." Corran kicked his shields full forward and dove in straight at the Interceptor. The rangefinder on the targeting computer scrolled numbers off with blurred speed. His crosshairs went green and he fired, but couldn't see how much damage he'd done because of the light show created by the Interceptor's lasers eating away at his shields.

Corran stabbed the right rudder pedal with his foot, swinging the ship around a full 180 degrees. Punching his throttle to full, he killed his momentum, then dropped his engines to zero thrust. With his thumb, he popped his weapons control over to proton torpedoes and got a solid tone when he trapped the fleeing Interceptor in the targeting box. His finger tightened once on the trigger and a single torpedo shot away on a jet of blue flame.

This could describe practically any ship stopping its own momentum (and actually says bad things about the X-wing - no Trek ship has to turn around to kill its own momentum). All in all this really doesn't say anything about maneuverability. It's not an example of the ship changing course, and says nothing about how quickly it can make a turn. It's an example of a ship traveling at a certain velocity until it fires its engines opposite that velocity to stop. No course change.

[Howedar]

Corran stabbed the right rudder pedal with his foot, swinging the ship around a full 180 degrees.

Can you be more dense, please?

[Kuja]

This could describe practically any ship stopping its own momentum (and actually says bad things about the X-wing - no Trek ship has to turn around to kill its own momentum). All in all this really doesn't say anything about maneuverability. It's not an example of the ship changing course, and says nothing about how quickly it can make a turn. It's an example of a ship traveling at a certain velocity until it fires its engines opposite that velocity to stop. No course change.

You DO realize that the X-wing in question performed this maneuver within seconds, right? Any longer and the Interceptor it was dogfighting would have changed course and zipped away.

In other words, the two fighters passed and the X-wing spun, stopped, and punched out a torp before the Incerceptor pilot even thought of changing course.

This indicates EXCEPTIONAL maneuverability when compared to the DF, which would have had to execute a gradual turn to either port or starbord through use of an awkward touchpad and give the Interceptor plenty of time to set up another head-to-head, assuming that the DF would even survive the first pass, considering that the Interceptor's firepower matches that of an X-wing without torps.

And you're right: no Trek ship has ever turned around to stop its momentum. Hwever, you must remember that instead of spinning on their axis, they must execute long, gradual turns as described above, with would give an opponent with thie X-wings abilities plenty of time to rake the with fire before they managed to complete a turn.

[Metrion Cascade]

This could describe practically any ship stopping its own momentum (and actually says bad things about the X-wing - no Trek ship has to turn around to kill its own momentum). All in all this really doesn't say anything about maneuverability. It's not an example of the ship changing course, and says nothing about how quickly it can make a turn. It's an example of a ship traveling at a certain velocity until it fires its engines opposite that velocity to stop. No course change.

You DO realize that the X-wing in question performed this maneuver within seconds, right? Any longer and the Interceptor it was dogfighting would have changed course and zipped away.

In other words, the two fighters passed and the X-wing spun, stopped, and punched out a torp before the Incerceptor pilot even thought of changing course.

This indicates EXCEPTIONAL maneuverability when compared to the DF, which would have had to execute a gradual turn to either port or starbord through use of an awkward touchpad and give the Interceptor plenty of time to set up another head-to-head, assuming that the DF would even survive the first pass, considering that the Interceptor's firepower matches that of an X-wing without torps.

And you're right: no Trek ship has ever turned around to stop its momentum. Hwever, you must remember that instead of spinning on their axis, they must execute long, gradual turns as described above, with would give an opponent with thie X-wings abilities plenty of time to rake the with fire before they managed to complete a turn.

When have we ever seen the DF in a situation that required such a maneuver and unable to carry it out? Never, since the DF would simply fire backwards. And the DF doesn't use touchpads for the helm. Tom Paris designed it with joysticks. Not that it matters...every fast maneuver you've ever seen a Fed ship do outside the DF and the battle in "Insurrection" was done with those touchpads. It shouldn't work, but somehow it does. These ships DO rotate in a split second to escape Dyson spheres and the Defiant DID chase Birds of Prey between DS9's docking pylons, and dodge Borg tractor-cutters. The maneuvers were input, by one means or another.

[Darth Wong]

When have we ever seen the DF in a situation that required such a maneuver and unable to carry it out? Never, since the DF would simply fire backwards. And the DF doesn't use touchpads for the helm. Tom Paris designed it with joysticks.

Why we are focusing on maneuverability rather than firepower and shielding?

Not that it matters...every fast maneuver you've ever seen a Fed ship do outside the DF and the battle in "Insurrection" was done with those touchpads. It shouldn't work, but somehow it does. These ships DO rotate in a split second to escape Dyson spheres

That was not a split-second maneuver, and someone could have easily punched in "-90" on some kind of pitch setting keypad in the time they executed it.

and the Defiant DID chase Birds of Prey between DS9's docking pylons, and dodge Borg tractor-cutters. The maneuvers were input, by one means or another.

Perhaps the keypad can be reconfigured for hard maneuvering to act like the controls of a FPS game on a computer. Or perhaps they brought up a joystick; ever since Insurrection, we've known that this is an option on Federation starships.

[Kuja]

Why we are focusing on maneuverability rather than firepower and shielding?

Probably because those are pretty well moot points.

When have we ever seen the DF in a situation that required such a maneuver and unable to carry it out? Never, since the DF would simply fire backwards.

Exactly: it needs those rearward phasers to cover it's ass because it is incapable of split-second maneuvers like the one described above.

And the DF doesn't use touchpads for the helm. Tom Paris designed it with joysticks.

My mistake, I was under the impression that it was controlled like every other Fed ship.

Not that it matters...every fast maneuver you've ever seen a Fed ship do outside the DF and the battle in "Insurrection" was done with those touchpads. It shouldn't work, but somehow it does. These ships DO rotate in a split second to escape Dyson spheres and the Defiant DID chase Birds of Prey between DS9's docking pylons, and dodge Borg tractor-cutters. The maneuvers were input, by one means or another.

To my knowledge, we have never seen a Fed ship going full speed spin 180 degress on its axis and kill its momentum, at the same time targeting and firing at an enemy that was previously directly behind it.

[Sharp-kun]

Sorry. Mount Tantiss doesn't have it that I can see, and I don't have the book with me. But Corran Horn specifically deliberates about which range his lasers should converge at for a specific mission.

As I recall it was the Borelias mission where they had to hit the conduit. As they would be atacking ground targets they needed a different convergance range than if they were only dogfighting.

This is kind of weird, since the lasers didn't converge in the X-Wing games, which is what Stackpole based the novels off of. I guess he just couldn't tell the difference between perceived convergence and actual convergence at a zero point.

X-Wing Alliance finally added convergance, in fighters like the Z-95 you could manually set it (Z key), while in more modern ones like the X-Wing it was automatic, though you could disable it. Fighters with cannon positioning like the TIE Fighter had no settings.

[Darth Fanboy]

Seeing as how there is no way i think the DF can take a shot from a Proton Torpedo nor outmaneuver it, I figure the X-Wing will jut squeeze one of those off and head home to paint another silhouette on the fuselage.

[Slartibartfast]

We KNOW that they converge. Just because you don't doesn't mean that they don't.

Don't be so fucking dense.

The problem is that you're telling her that they converge in the middle, thus giving the impression that they're simply adjusted that way (pre-set to converge at a set point directly in front of the ship). In fact, they can converge in ANY point of the FOV, and we often see it do exactly that - firing off-axis. Like if the TIE is slightly to the left or down.

[Lord Poe]

Isard's Revenge

pg.61: At the two-hundred-meter mark, Corran cut thrust to zero, rolled onto the starboard S-foil, and shunted full engine power to the repulsorlift coils. He stomped on the starboard rudder pedal, swinging the fighter's aft to the right. In a heartbeat the fighter went from being level and headed north to having its nose pointed at the sky, its right S-foil pointed north, and momentum still carrying it in toward the pass.
Corran slammed the throttle up to full and snaprolled the fighter to the left. The X-wing leaped toward the sky, with the repulsorlift coils creating a gravity cushion that bounced the fighter back from the rocks at the mouth of the pass. The fighter rode a rocket of thrust toward the stars above.

The Bacta War

pg. 301: Up ahead Corran saw Ooryl's X-wing tighten its arc impossibly quick, swapping nose for tail in the space of two hundred meters.

[Slartibartfast]

Are you some kind of moron?

I've been wondering that myself about him for some time now.

I never said the Delta Flyer would lose infact I voted for the X-Wing. Here I was merely pointing out one advantage the Delta Flyer MIGHT have over the X-Wing. How does that make one into a moron ? Can you cite one example where I acted like one ?

Because there's no way in hell that somebody can dodge a blaster shot once it's been fired. Just because it doesn't appear to move at lightspeed it doesn't mean it's not pretty mighty fast and would hit you before you had a chance to get out of the way. Bullets aren't lightspeed either, but guess what, they're 100 times faster than the human body can move, so if you're not out of the way BEFORE it's fired, you're fucked. Saying that being "lightspeed" and "undodgeable" is an advantage is pretty mighty stupid, since for all intents and purposes a shot that takes 0.01 seconds to hit you and one that takes 0.000001 seconds to hit you are both virtually instantaneous.