Survivor: Star Trek vs Star Wars

[The Dude]

The ST team consists of a 60-year old starship captain, his pudgy-ass half-blind (judging by his shooting in Nemesis) 50-year old second-in-command, a 50-something female doctor (who is completely fucking useless without her tricorder/healing-doohickey) and a 45-year old engineer. Crusher and Laforge have basically zero combat experience that does not involve pressing a giant "FIRE PHASERS" button on an LCARS display.

The SW team is younger and fitter; Luke is a 20-something superhuman, Leia is the same age, Han is in his 30's and Lando is 45. They are all battle-hardened war veterans - specialized in surviving attacks by a superior and more numerous foe (Hoth, Jabba's Palace, Endor moon, Bespin, aboard the DS1).

Regardless, Luke alone throws it easily to SW, as his Force abilities represent the only weapons available to either team (Force choke, telekinesis). Jedi mind tricks, the ability to sense living things beyond line of sight, superhuman speed and strength, precognition and telepathy are icing on the cake.

[Metrion Cascade]

The ST team consists of a 60-year old starship captain, his pudgy-ass half-blind (judging by his shooting in Nemesis) 50-year old second-in-command, a 50-something female doctor (who is completely fucking useless without her tricorder/healing-doohickey) and a 45-year old engineer. Crusher and Laforge have basically zero combat experience that does not involve pressing a giant "FIRE PHASERS" button on an LCARS display.

The SW team is younger and fitter; Luke is a 20-something superhuman, Leia is the same age, Han is in his 30's and Lando is 45. They are all battle-hardened war veterans - specialized in surviving attacks by a superior and more numerous foe (Hoth, Jabba's Palace, Endor moon, Bespin, aboard the DS1).


Regardless, Luke alone throws it easily to SW, as his Force abilities represent the only weapons available to either team (Force choke, telekinesis). Jedi mind tricks, the ability to sense living things beyond line of sight, superhuman speed and strength, precognition and telepathy are icing on the cake.

The Force may not exist on the Pitch Black planet. The VISOR still beats the Force for identifying specific objects and threats immediately and at a glance. We've never seen Luke use a Force choke, and don't know that he's trained in it or can choke dozens or thousands of "Pitch Black" super-bats at once, which is the only way the Force will make much of a difference tactically. Their "war experience" consists of four incidents fought against uniformly trained soldiers using distance weapons and fifty foot tanks you can see a mile off, where team Trek has been in Starfleet for decades and dealt with such varied and unpredictable creatures as Armus, Nagilum, self-aware Borg, their own drunken crew, spaceborne animals, and mind-eating Devidians. When it comes to problem solving and improvisation, Trek is practically devoted to both. Beverly's training doesn't solely consist of operating SF medical tech. She's also trained in identifying medicinal plants and applying field dressings (TNG "Arsenal of Freedom"). And Luke's supposed speed and strength (not demonstrated, and he never had time to get training on par with Yoda's or Obi-Wan's) do little to help the rest of his team. They don't make the rest of the team faster, and make little difference in a hand to hand fight against thousands of super-bats.

[Darth Wong]

The Force may not exist on the Pitch Black planet.

Nice attempt at a cop-out. Why don't we just say that Treknobabble won't work there either?

The VISOR still beats the Force for identifying specific objects and threats immediately and at a glance.

Bullshit. Can it identify threats before they strike, or when they're behind you?

We've never seen Luke use a Force choke, and don't know that he's trained in it or can choke dozens or thousands of "Pitch Black" super-bats at once, which is the only way the Force will make much of a difference tactically.

Once again, bullshit. Luke casually and effortlessly Force-choked two Gamorrean guards while he was strolling into Jabba's palace in ROTJ.

Their "war experience" consists of four incidents fought against uniformly trained soldiers using distance weapons and fifty foot tanks you can see a mile off

You think the use of "distance weapons" somehow makes their enemy less formidable?

And seeing the AT-ATs from miles away does not help you.

, where team Trek has been in Starfleet for decades and dealt with such varied and unpredictable creatures as Armus, Nagilum, self-aware Borg, their own drunken crew, spaceborne animals, and mind-eating Devidians.

While equipped with a whole starship and various weapons, none of which are available to them in this scenario.

When it comes to problem solving and improvisation, Trek is practically devoted to both.

Modification of their technology is irrelevant here, where they are bereft of it.

Beverly's training doesn't solely consist of operating SF medical tech. She's also trained in identifying medicinal plants and applying field dressings (TNG "Arsenal of Freedom").

And how will her knowledge of field dressings and medicinal herbs help them here?

And Luke's supposed speed and strength (not demonstrated, and he never had time to get training on par with Yoda's or Obi-Wan's) do little to help the rest of his team.

Are you always this full of shit? Luke's speed and strength were demonstrated in ROTJ and TESB. Can you jump 20 feet straight up, withstand being struck by flying pieces of machinery which probably weigh hundreds of pounds, leap from a Tatooine desert skiff 50 feet across to another, or bash a monstrous Rancor's claw hard enough to injure it?

They don't make the rest of the team faster, and make little difference in a hand to hand fight against thousands of super-bats.

If Luke cuts loose with the Force, it will make a huge difference. Far more than the ability to apply a field dressing.

[Sarevok]

The Force may not exist on the Pitch Black planet.

That is just bad as GK saying that the Force does not work in the Star Trek galaxy.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

The Force may not exist on the Pitch Black planet.

That is just bad as GK saying that the Force does not work in the Star Trek galaxy.

It's the exact same thing, actually.

[The Dude]

The Force may not exist on the Pitch Black planet.

Please re-read the original post, in particular the "all skills and abilities" bit.

The VISOR still beats the Force for identifying specific objects and threats immediately and at a glance.

The Force grants detection of threats before they happen and without a glance. The visor will be useful for night-vision and little else.

We've never seen Luke use a Force choke and don't know that he's trained in it

Ummm. Did you watch ROTJ? Hint: Jabba's Palace

or can choke dozens or thousands of "Pitch Black" super-bats at once, which is the only way the Force will make much of a difference tactically.

Irrelevant. he can choke at least ONE at once, and at range, which is one more than the entire ST team can manage.

Their "war experience" consists of four incidents fought against uniformly trained soldiers using distance weapons and fifty foot tanks you can see a mile off,

And avoiding some superbats is supposed to be harder than surviving this???

where team Trek has been in Starfleet for decades and dealt with such varied and unpredictable creatures as Armus, Nagilum, self-aware Borg, their own drunken crew, spaceborne animals, and mind-eating Devidians.

And they dealt with all of those things with four unarmed over-the-hill non-combatants, too! Oh wait...

Beverly's training doesn't solely consist of operating SF medical tech. She's also trained in identifying medicinal plants and applying field dressings (TNG "Arsenal of Freedom").

That's nice. How does it help them when they have no medicinal plants, and if they make close enough contact with the enemy to be injured, they're dead?

And Luke's supposed speed and strength

I guess you missed the lightning-fast 10-foot vertical jump out of the carbonite chamber in ESB and the 15-foot backflip from standing start on the DS2 in ROTJ. Perhaps you should watch the films.

do little to help the rest of his team. They don't make the rest of the team faster, and make little difference in a hand to hand fight against thousands of super-bats.

It means his team has some defense, which is some defense more than the ST team has.

[The Dude]

Whoops, Mike beat me to it.

[Metrion Cascade]

The Force may not exist on the Pitch Black planet.

Nice attempt at a cop-out. Why don't we just say that Treknobabble won't work there either?

Notice how I immediately started assuming (below) that the Force would be a factor?

The VISOR still beats the Force for identifying specific objects and threats immediately and at a glance.

Bullshit. Can it identify threats before they strike, or when they're behind you?

No. And how far do these go towards trumping its range (both in terms of distance and spectrum)?

We've never seen Luke use a Force choke, and don't know that he's trained in it or can choke dozens or thousands of "Pitch Black" super-bats at once, which is the only way the Force will make much of a difference tactically.

Once again, bullshit. Luke casually and effortlessly Force-choked two Gamorrean guards while he was strolling into Jabba's palace in ROTJ.

Conceded.

Their "war experience" consists of four incidents fought against uniformly trained soldiers using distance weapons and fifty foot tanks you can see a mile off

You think the use of "distance weapons" somehow makes their enemy less formidable?

And seeing the AT-ATs from miles away does not help you.

My point being that they're used to fighting a single type of enemy (the Empire) and used to dealing with its trained, logical, somewhat predictable tactics.

, where team Trek has been in Starfleet for decades and dealt with such varied and unpredictable creatures as Armus, Nagilum, self-aware Borg, their own drunken crew, spaceborne animals, and mind-eating Devidians.

While equipped with a whole starship and various weapons, none of which are available to them in this scenario.

In some cases their tech didn't help them at all. In no case did the tech figure out a given alien's intent or how to outsmart it.

When it comes to problem solving and improvisation, Trek is practically devoted to both.

Modification of their technology is irrelevant here, where they are bereft of it.

I don't mean modifying their tech. I mean thinking on their feet, generally.

Beverly's training doesn't solely consist of operating SF medical tech. She's also trained in identifying medicinal plants and applying field dressings (TNG "Arsenal of Freedom").

And how will her knowledge of field dressings and medicinal herbs help them here?

They have to survive the bat things, which presumably means surviving a peck or cut or two. As opposed to politely bleeding to death.

And Luke's supposed speed and strength (not demonstrated, and he never had time to get training on par with Yoda's or Obi-Wan's) do little to help the rest of his team.

Are you always this full of shit? Luke's speed and strength were demonstrated in ROTJ and TESB. Can you jump 20 feet straight up, withstand being struck by flying pieces of machinery which probably weigh hundreds of pounds, leap from a Tatooine desert skiff 50 feet across to another, or bash a monstrous Rancor's claw hard enough to injure it?

Conceded.

They don't make the rest of the team faster, and make little difference in a hand to hand fight against thousands of super-bats.

If Luke cuts loose with the Force, it will make a huge difference. Far more than the ability to apply a field dressing.

"Cuts loose?" Since when is the Force a time bomb you can set off at will, rather than something that takes effort and concentration to harness? What have you listed above that will make a dent in a swarm of tens of thousands of half-ton flying carnivores strong enough to bite a human's skull in half? And how will Skywalker protect not only himself, but three other people who are more or less unable to fight these things at all, without resorting to hiding, bright lights, or some other tactic also employable by Team Trek? And how long can he keep it up? Is his ability to use the Force infinite? Can he keep choking dozens of bats a second for hours? Days?

And assuming each gets to a ship like the one in Pitch Black. Which team has spent their whole careers figuring out alien tech? Trek. Which team can read English? Trek.

[Darth Wong]

No. And how far do these go towards trumping its range (both in terms of distance and spectrum)?

Pretty damned far, because Geordi's ability to see death approaching will not help him avoid it. He's unarmed, remember?

My point being that they're used to fighting a single type of enemy (the Empire) and used to dealing with its trained, logical, somewhat predictable tactics.

"Kid, I've flown from one end of this galaxy to the other. I've seen a lot of strange stuff." Sorry, but the variety of strange creatures in Star Wars is hardly less than it is in Star Trek. Creatures that feed on starship hulls (mynocks) and gigantic ship-eating worms are old hat to Han Solo and the gang.

In some cases their tech didn't help them at all. In no case did the tech figure out a given alien's intent or how to outsmart it.

Oh really? Do you really think the Star Wars team would have been unable to deal with Armus or the flying space blobs? Mind you, they probably would have responded by killing everything, but that doesn't change the fact that they would have walked out alive.

They have to survive the bat things, which presumably means surviving a peck or cut or two. As opposed to politely bleeding to death.

They wouldn't last long enough to bleed to death.

"Cuts loose?" Since when is the Force a time bomb you can set off at will, rather than something that takes effort and concentration to harness?

Since Jedi knights can use it in the heat of combat, and Luke effortlessly and casually used it against Gamorrean guards while strolling into Jabba's palace.

What have you listed above that will make a dent in a swarm of tens of thousands of half-ton flying carnivores strong enough to bite a human's skull in half?

A Force-wall as strong as concrete will make a considerable dent. See the AOTC novelization for this particular Jedi ability. And what have you listed on behalf of the ST team which will give them more offensive abilities against the swarm than Luke's telekinetic and telepathic powers? For all you know, he could simply calm or divert the swarm.

And how will Skywalker protect not only himself, but three other people who are more or less unable to fight these things at all, without resorting to hiding, bright lights, or some other tactic also employable by Team Trek? And how long can he keep it up? Is his ability to use the Force infinite? Can he keep choking dozens of bats a second for hours? Days?

Unknown, obviously. But he can kill a helluva lot more of them than anyone on the Trek team can, and he might even be able to divert them if they're weak-minded.

And assuming each gets to a ship like the one in Pitch Black. Which team has spent their whole careers figuring out alien tech? Trek. Which team can read English? Trek.

See the tractor beam controls in ANH. English is used in the SW galaxy. And Trek has only learned to figure out "alien tech" which is coincidentally very similar to their own: not a big surprise when you realize that most of the galaxy has been inter-communicating for millenia before they arrived, so the tech base is widespread. Voyager was able to barter for replacement components while stranded in the Delta Quadrant, for fuck's sake.

[The Dude]

No. And how far do these go towards trumping its range (both in terms of distance and spectrum)?

I implore you to watch the films. ESB shows that Luke's Force senses have interstellar range

My point being that they're used to fighting a single type of enemy (the Empire) and used to dealing with its trained, logical, somewhat predictable tactics.

I fail to see how being used to dealing with tactically proficient enemies is a disadvantage when faced with enemies with no significant tactics at all.

"Cuts loose?" Since when is the Force a time bomb you can set off at will, rather than something that takes effort and concentration to harness? What have you listed above that will make a dent in a swarm of tens of thousands of half-ton flying carnivores strong enough to bite a human's skull in half?

What the hell good is a field dressing or medicinal herbs going to do?

And how will Skywalker protect not only himself, but three other people who are more or less unable to fight these things at all

How will FOUR people unable to fight the things at all fare?

And assuming each gets to a ship like the one in Pitch Black. Which team has spent their whole careers figuring out alien tech? Trek. Which team can read English? Trek.

Since when does it require expertise in alien tech or the English language to operate a jeep, turn on a light switch or stuff hydroponic food into your pie-hole?

[The Dude]

No. And how far do these go towards trumping its range (both in terms of distance and spectrum)?

I'd also wonder what the hell spectrum has to do with Force senses that can detect something that hasn't happened yet on a different planet.

I really can't believe that you're claiming that glorified night-vision binoculars are more useful than interstellar-ranged ESP and precognition.

[Metrion Cascade]

Note to self - never get into or consider relevant a VS discussion where one side has magic powers that are functionally limitless and adhere to no concept of rules or physics.

[Darth Wong]

Note to self - never get into or consider relevant a VS discussion where one side has magic powers that are functionally limitless and adhere to no concept of rules or physics.

Well come on, let's face it; whoever laid down the scenario and gave the SW team a Jedi Knight just handed an unreasonable advantage to one side.

[Kuja]

Note to self - never get into or consider relevant a VS discussion where one side has magic powers that are functionally limitless and adhere to no concept of rules or physics.

Admit that the Force gives the Jedi Knights extraordinary ablilites when compared to normal humans and be done with it. Don't complain about it. And don't spout hyperbole. If the Force was functionally limitless, than the Jedi would be omnipotent.

[Utsanomiko]

When ready to admit defeat, pull the 'at least my side is more realistic' tactic first.

Don't blame me; you're the one who first argued against Jedi having significant powers, then complain they are 'limitless'.

[Ted C]

The Force may not exist on the Pitch Black planet.

The Force exists everywhere; deal with it.

We've never seen Luke use a Force choke,

ROTJ... Jabba's palace... Gamorrean guards

[Ted C]

Note to self - never get into or consider relevant a VS discussion where one side has magic powers that are functionally limitless and adhere to no concept of rules or physics.

Well come on, let's face it; whoever laid down the scenario and gave the SW team a Jedi Knight just handed an unreasonable advantage to one side.

Perhaps I should have given the Star Wars side whiney-boy ANH Luke? I could have taken the whole Star Wars side with their ANH capabilities, but that would make it somewhat harder to find four major "good guy" characters who are human (unless you want me to hand over another Jedi in Ben Kenobi). I guess I could stick them with Biggs or Wedge instead of Ben.

Such a change in scenario would require kicking the Star Trek side back to "Encounter at Farpoint", as well.

Would it even make a difference? Except to shift all the votes to "everybody dies"?

[JodoForce]

That was hilarious.

[The Dude]

Such a change in scenario would require kicking the Star Trek side back to "Encounter at Farpoint", as well.

That would probably be a big help for the ST side; they would be about 15 years younger and less accustomed to their fairly sedentary duties.

[Metrion Cascade]

The Force may not exist on the Pitch Black planet.

The Force exists everywhere; deal with it.

lmao...this has about as much backing as me asserting that it can't exist outside the SW galaxy.

[Lord of the Farce]

The Force may not exist on the Pitch Black planet.

The Force exists everywhere; deal with it.

lmao...this has about as much backing as me asserting that it can't exist outside the SW galaxy.

The Force is what gives the Jedi his power. It's an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us and penetrates us. It binds the galaxy together.

Life creates it, makes it grow. Its energy surrounds us and binds us. Luminous beings we are... not this crude matter. You must feel the Force around you. Here, between you... me... the tree... the rock... everywhere! Yes, even between the land and the ship!

While the use of "galaxy" in the first quote might support your assertion, "all living things" does not. The fact that the Yuuzhan Vong are actually suppose to be within the Force (but outside of the normal spectrum) add credibility to the claim that the Force does exist outside of the SW galaxy.

[Metrion Cascade]

The Force exists everywhere; deal with it.

lmao...this has about as much backing as me asserting that it can't exist outside the SW galaxy.

The Force is what gives the Jedi his power. It's an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us and penetrates us. It binds the galaxy together.

Life creates it, makes it grow. Its energy surrounds us and binds us. Luminous beings we are... not this crude matter. You must feel the Force around you. Here, between you... me... the tree... the rock... everywhere! Yes, even between the land and the ship!

While the use of "galaxy" in the first quote might support your assertion, "all living things" does not. The fact that the Yuuzhan Vong are actually suppose to be within the Force (but outside of the normal spectrum) add credibility to the claim that the Force does exist outside of the SW galaxy.

Obviously, Yoda's statement can't apply to races and locales he's never heard of even if HE thinks it does. Just as the Holodoc saying Borg tubules can penetrate any armor only means they can penetrate any armor he's heard of. So just where are the Vong from, and how does their Force susceptibility automatically extend to everything? There are too many holes in that assertion. I'd say that the fact they're from a different "spectrum" of the Force supports (along with midichlorians) the idea that it's a literal physical phenomenon, local to the SW galaxy and vicinity, or at least not universal. Maybe the Pitch Black planet is "clouded by the Dark Side" the way a single Sith "clouded" everything from Coruscant to Geonosis, and screws up Luke's use of the Force. Maybe the Vong are only affected by the Force because of their entry into the SW galaxy and were immune before that. Maybe the lack of midichlorians on the planet prevents Force use (if there's actually a causal relationship, which I'm not saying is proven).

There's no reason the Force couldn't be confined to one galaxy or a few galaxies or just the SW universe, and a few reasons it could be. And no statement by any character can unquestionably apply to the whole universe or alternate universes, since they're not omniscient. And the answer to this question is simple - anyone making up the scenario can say that the Force won't exist in the universe in question, and that makes it as "true" as it can be. The point being that Ted C's opinion isn't what determines whether Luke has his powers in a fic someone else came up with. The OP would have to say whether it's included or not, since it's being debated.

[Ted C]

The Force may not exist on the Pitch Black planet.

The Force exists everywhere; deal with it.

lmao...this has about as much backing as me asserting that it can't exist outside the SW galaxy.

It doesn't require backing; it's standard debate protocol. In versus debates, universal laws are assumed to be universal. That's why hyperdrive works in the Star Trek galaxy and warp drive works in the Star Wars galaxy. Similarly, Q still has his powers in the Star Wars galaxy and Jedi still have their powers in the Star Trek galaxy.

[Metrion Cascade]

The Force exists everywhere; deal with it.

lmao...this has about as much backing as me asserting that it can't exist outside the SW galaxy.

It doesn't require backing; it's standard debate protocol. In versus debates, universal laws are assumed to be universal. That's why hyperdrive works in the Star Trek galaxy and warp drive works in the Star Wars galaxy. Similarly, Q still has his powers in the Star Wars galaxy and Jedi still have their powers in the Star Trek galaxy.

There's no proof that the Force is a universal or uniformly applicable law of physics even in its own universe. And nothing stops a person from making a hypothetical where Luke doesn't have his powers, or Q (once again) has been stripped of his by the Continuum.

[Ghost Rider]

lmao...this has about as much backing as me asserting that it can't exist outside the SW galaxy.

It doesn't require backing; it's standard debate protocol. In versus debates, universal laws are assumed to be universal. That's why hyperdrive works in the Star Trek galaxy and warp drive works in the Star Wars galaxy. Similarly, Q still has his powers in the Star Wars galaxy and Jedi still have their powers in the Star Trek galaxy.

There's no proof that the Force is a universal or uniformly applicable law of physics even in its own universe. And nothing stops a person from making a hypothetical where Luke doesn't have his powers, or Q (once again) has been stripped of his by the Continuum.

Thus stripping Luke of his powers distinctly indicates that with all the power SW wins so easily that the opposing side has to procur limitation to see a chance of their side winning.

Might as well say I concede.