Reasoning Technical Regression and Star Trek...

Post by **The Yosemite Bear** » 2003-11-19 05:33am

Ok, one of the frequent grasps for straws is the current Trek arguement that SW has become Militaryily and Technically repressed under the Gallactic Empire. Purhaps if we look at TOS era Star Trek, in terms of sability, and firepower, Star Trek clearly HAS technically regressed. So what is the possible explanation for why Star Trek has become so weak?

KhyronTheBackstabber · Post by **KhyronTheBackstabber** » 2003-11-19 05:59am

I think a lot of it has to do with the removal of any form of capitalism. There is no competition for contracts to build ships, warp cores, phasers, ect. IMHO, that is a key element for advancement, or I should say, a more rapid advancement, and drives the companies to out perform each other.

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2003-11-19 06:10am

At a guess? STVI. I rewatched that recently, and it Spock outlined that part of the deal with the Khitomer accord was that the Federation would dismantle their starbases along the Klingon border. To this, one of the gathered Starfleet officers said: "Excuse me, but are we talking about mothballing the fleet?"

Assuming that the Federation/Klingon accord proved successful (as in, there were no skirmishes, police actions, border disputes etc in the time between STVI and TNG, which seems likely) then regressing in weapons development seems plausible. The Romulans retreated behind their borders for some unknown reason (hinted at in something called the "Tomed incident" But I have no idea what that was or entailed). That leaves smaller powers to contend with.

Given that there weren't any major enemies encountered between STVI and TNG, except for the Cardassians and perhaps the Ferengi, why bother conducting weapons research? The TNG era Federation had grown complacent.

Tribun · Post by **Tribun** » 2003-11-19 08:52am

You mean they had grown incompetent....

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2003-11-19 09:39am

I'd say somewhere between ST 6~TNG.

Or since they're records indicate it further around the Ent-C incident.

Literally by then they have a pseudo peace with the Klingons. The Romulans at this point have retreated...and with a few skirmishes with outside froces...no one is really showing any true potential of facing them.

Patrick Degan · Post by **Patrick Degan** » 2003-11-19 11:45am

The Yosemite Bear wrote:Ok, one of the frequent grasps for straws is the current Trek arguement that SW has become Militaryily and Technically repressed under the Galactic Empire. Purhaps if we look at TOS era Star Trek, in terms of sability, and firepower, Star Trek clearly HAS technically regressed. So what is the possible explanation for why Star Trek has become so weak?

The SW galaxy is militarily/technologically repressed? An interesting description for a society which enjoys fast galactic travel in terms of hours/days, galaxy-spanning government, hyperdrive developed to the point that even small fighter craft can mount a system, planet-busting superweapons, and AI so common that an 8-yr. old slaveboy on a low-population frontier world can assemble a fully functional protocol droid out of what essentially is a kit from his neighbourhood Radio Shack.

The problem with the Trek galaxy appears to be twofold: ironclad centralisation and engineering establishments which have become so obsessed with highly complex, optimised solutions to every problem that a nuts-and-bolts or brute-force approach has literally become inconceivable. Essentially, they've sent themselves up a scientific cul-de-sac.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-11-19 11:54am

Remember the Federation Science Council, mentioned in TNG? A centralized government-run science council which dictates where and how you may perform scientific research?

Patrick Degan · Post by **Patrick Degan** » 2003-11-19 12:58pm

Darth Wong wrote:Remember the Federation Science Council, mentioned in TNG? A centralized government-run science council which dictates where and how you may perform scientific research?

With one result being that most of their "research" consists of computer simulations rather than actual observation in the Real World and physical experimentation work based upon said observation.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-11-19 04:21pm

Ok, one of the frequent grasps for straws is the current Trek arguement that SW has become Militaryily and Technically repressed under the Gallactic Empire.

Hardly! The Empire has been building a military both much larger and more capable. They went from using the (Warlord?) Dreadnaught as the premeire workhorse warship to the Victory, to the Imperial/Imperator Star Destroyer. In the space of a generation they developed a warship that outclassed a modest squadron of the old warships! Regression my ass!

Of course the civilian market suffered as a lot of the economy was presumably either destroyed or damaged along with the Seperatists or converted to a military market. But that'll happen to any economy that goes through a civil war and attendant military build up. What's suprising is that there was so little disruption of the civilian sector.

Purhaps if we look at TOS era Star Trek, in terms of sability, and firepower, Star Trek clearly HAS technically regressed. So what is the possible explanation for why Star Trek has become so weak?

Two primary reasons:

1) Over centralization. Whether it's the research, design or building aspects the Federation went to a centrally managed (ie inefficient) economy. With out the competition of a healthy capitalists economy they stagnated and it became as easy to turn out bad shit as good (and probably at inflated prices) because there was no alternative.

Look at the unmitigated disaster that is the early Galaxy-class. They were a bad idea implemented poorly. Had Newport News done that badly with the Nimitz-class carriers for the US navy they would have been sued out of existance.

2) The Hippie mentality. It's entirely obvious that the federation in addition to going commie has forgotten that complete peace is a rarity and the age old mantra of "to secure peace, prepare for war." The fact that it's military clearly considers itself civilian (to the point of not conducting basic drills no less) and an officer insisting on proper discipline is considered neanderthalic points to serious problems. This also trickles over into the badly equipped portion of reason number one.

It's obviously not a general technical regression. The new technology developed and improved bely that notion. The avaibability of things like holodecks, transporters, and replicators suggests that the civilian "market" simply took precedence (bread and circuses anyone?) to the detriment of the necessary military expenditures.

Tribun · Post by **Tribun** » 2003-11-19 05:19pm

Well, let's view the TOS area for some things:

-Exploding consoles.
In TOS "reality" never did a console explode like it did routinly in TNG. The two worst things were in ST III were a console spied sparks and ST I were Chekov got a hand burn.

-Warp core problems.
Totally unknown. The only time was, when in one episode the fail safe systems were burnt through (with power that was REALLY strong) and the ship accellerated uncontrolled. Otherwise, that damn thing never went through by accident.

-Overall stability.
In "The dommsday machine" the other ship was nearly shot into a wreck, and still it was useable. And the Relaint lost a warp engine, and still it remaind stable. Compare that to scens like the one when the Bozeman scratched the Enterprise-D.

Testing:
In "the ulimate Computer" they actully test M5 in practise. Think about what could have happened if in TNG they had mass produced that computers without testing in pactise only in theory.

-Prime directive.
Cintinually ignored or put on hold by captains to reach thier goals and the higher good.

-Political structure.
The structures were very clear. Political and military power were clearly seperated. The falcons are in the military, ofter in conflict with the military. Compared to that, TNG is Communism.

Comment that please.......

Kuroneko · Post by **Kuroneko** » 2003-11-19 05:26pm

KhyronTheBackstabber wrote:I think a lot of it has to do with the removal of any form of capitalism. There is no competition for contracts to build ships, warp cores, phasers, ect. IMHO, that is a key element for advancement, or I should say, a more rapid advancement, and drives the companies to out perform each other.

Pshaw. What they need is a few gulags. Now that's a `drive to perform', and gives more rapid advancement than anything else.

Post by **The Yosemite Bear** » 2003-11-19 07:53pm

Stormbringer wrote:<snip>

No shit, what I was saying was that folks at VS debates in other forums were claiming this was true in Starwars. I disagree with that assesment, and find more clear evidence of technical regression in Star Trek...

Sarevok · Post by **Sarevok** » 2003-11-20 07:57am

It's obviously not a general technical regression. The new technology developed and improved bely that notion. The avaibability of things like holodecks, transporters, and replicators suggests that the civilian "market" simply took precedence (bread and circuses anyone?) to the detriment of the necessary military expenditures.

Of course the development of new technology has not stopped but the process has slowed down. For example it took the destruction of 3 Galaxy class ships before Starfleet realized that there was something wrong with their design.

In the TNG Federation many technologies with military application are not developed. For example the episode "Dreadnaught" showed that all Federation ships are capable of using Quantum torpedoes. Yet Starfleet has limited them to only the Defiant and Sovergein class.

Similarly Starfleet never considered the potential uses of phase cloak technology. Imagine how effective phase cloaked Quantum torpedoes would be against Borg Cubes which are normaly impenetrable by Federation weapons.

Post by **Vympel** » 2003-11-20 09:48am

In terms of military regression they're probably referring to the difference between say, the battle of Geonosis and the battle of Hoth. Which is retarded, for reasons I need not go into here.

Post by **The Yosemite Bear** » 2003-11-20 03:02pm

Essentially that is what has been brought up, and I agree with your assessment...

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-11-20 08:56pm

evilcat4000 wrote:Of course the development of new technology has not stopped but the process has slowed down.

On the contrary, there's no real evidence that the pace of advance has slown down at all. In fact aside from holodecks and replicators we also have a massive increase in computing power and other dual use technologies. And the fact that we have major advances in weapons and armor once the Federation was put on a war footing suggests that it's not a technical regression but rather they had turned away from military development.

evilcat4000 wrote:For example it took the destruction of 3 Galaxy class ships before Starfleet realized that there was something wrong with their design.

In the TNG Federation many technologies with military application are not developed. For example the episode "Dreadnaught" showed that all Federation ships are capable of using Quantum torpedoes. Yet Starfleet has limited them to only the Defiant and Sovergein class.

Similarly Starfleet never considered the potential uses of phase cloak technology. Imagine how effective phase cloaked Quantum torpedoes would be against Borg Cubes which are normaly impenetrable by Federation weapons.

All that proves is that Starfleet = tha sTuPED!

All that is proof us is the long established hippy mentality. All those are directly tied to the military which we know is neglected and indeed treated with shame. Under those conditions fumbling bueracracy and under funding are to be expected.

Praxis · Post by **Praxis** » 2003-11-20 10:02pm

Actually, Q himself said that the Federation had grown too complacent when he threw the Enterprise vs the Borg...

There it is, in canon words, from Q who knows all that happens in the ST galaxy...the Federation IS technically repressed. On the other hand the Empire just finished taking over the galaxy, right AFTER a gigantic several years long Clone Wars...

Sure sounds complacent. I certainly doubt the Empire would have more than a couple warships, after having just taking over the entire known galaxy...

Trekkies have...interesting reasoning...ROFL

Uraniun235 · Post by **Uraniun235** » 2003-11-24 03:22pm

-Exploding consoles.
In TOS "reality" never did a console explode like it did routinly in TNG. The two worst things were in ST III were a console spied sparks and ST I were Chekov got a hand burn.

You need to watch "City On The Edge Of Forever" (Sulu needs medical attention because his console exploded) and Star Trek II again. (not the training simulator, but Reliant's torpedo strike on the Enterprise)

Tribun · Post by **Tribun** » 2003-11-24 03:58pm

Uraniun235 wrote:
-Exploding consoles.
In TOS "reality" never did a console explode like it did routinly in TNG. The two worst things were in ST III were a console spied sparks and ST I were Chekov got a hand burn.
You need to watch "City On The Edge Of Forever" (Sulu needs medical attention because his console exploded) and Star Trek II again. (not the training simulator, but Reliant's torpedo strike on the Enterprise)

But it is not common, and no time lethal, compared to TNG, that is a big atvantage.