Delta Flyer vs X-Wing

[YT300000]

Delta Flyer has 100% weapons coverage at every angle. Starfleet beam phasers and associated targeting systems also have a demonstrated 99% accuracy rating.

I'm tempted to bring out Trekmiss.avi, but it's already been posted in this thread.

[Lord of the Farce]

Does anyone have the shield figures for the Jedi Starfighter from ICS?

It doesn't actually have a shield figure in the ICS. But, it's probably safe to say that it's not going to be much weaker than Padme's yacht, which has peak shielding of 2e12 megawatts. Divide that by 6 and you have a rough figure based on their difference in length.

[Mad]

Which explosion was caused by the X-wing?

The explosion in the left panel, which leaves behind the relatively small fire in front of an apparently blackened crater right above the X-wing in the right panel (the fire/crater appears to be about the size of the X-wing fighter itself). The X-wing fired a total of three shots into that point.

The huge explosion on the right panel is the TIE fighter exploding much closer to the camera, and can be ignored.

[The Dude]

I'm tempted to bring out Trekmiss.avi, but it's already been posted in this thread.

It's not really applicable anyway, since an X-Wing is a fraction of the size of the ships in that clip.

[Ender]

Does anyone have the shield figures for the Jedi Starfighter from ICS?

It doesn't actually have a shield figure in the ICS. But, it's probably safe to say that it's not going to be much weaker than Padme's yacht, which has peak shielding of 2e12 megawatts. Divide that by 6 and you have a rough figure based on their difference in length.

At that levle of shield strength the thing would be immune to other starfighter attacks until the heat spikes wore down the generators. This is not he case. Further, I'd like to know what makes you think length of the ship is a factor in determining shield strength.

[Metrion Cascade]

As for yields for the DF and X-wing, I'd be obliged if someone could post the numbers from the ICS.

The ICS doesn't actually have stats for the X-Wing, but assuming that the Jedi Starfighter is comparable, then it's laser cannons (the Delta-7's appears to be smaller than the T-65's) are capable of at least 1kt per shot max and the fighter itself can accelerate at around 5000G max.

And good luck finding ANYTHING concrete about the DF. All I could find was the scene from (if I recall the episode correctly) VOY "Unimatrix Zero" where the Borg tactical cube needed three or four photonic missiles to destroy the first one, and only broke the hull into a dozen chunks instead of completely obliterating it. The DF's warp core didn't even explode. Supposedly the second one was upgraded, but I'm not clear on what the upgrades were.

Hmmm... If the photonic missiles are like photon torps, then that's pretty impressive. If it's more like whatever that was used by the Sphere in First Contact, then that's not impressive at all.

I'd say they were at least as powerful as the things that were fragging Federation capital ships left and right in First Contact (obviously not the same as the sphere's weapons). And probably MORE powerful than the FC cube's missiles - this was a tactical cube that was shooting to kill, not trying to bypass a fleet so it could assimilate a planet.

[Ender]

What kind of chance would the Delta Flyer have if the X Wing just fired off a proton torpedo from maximum range with a lock (2.5 klicks?)

Targeting bracket goes red, torpedo goes off, and I dont think that the DF can outdo a Protorp if Yavin is any indicator.

2.5, over 1000 from ANH, same diff...

[Connor MacLeod]

Does anyone have the shield figures for the Jedi Starfighter from ICS?

It doesn't actually have a shield figure in the ICS. But, it's probably safe to say that it's not going to be much weaker than Padme's yacht, which has peak shielding of 2e12 megawatts. Divide that by 6 and you have a rough figure based on their difference in length.

Its better to use volume for an approximation, but even then its not going to be terribly accurate (maybe a sort of order of magnitude estimate, at best.)

[Slartibartfast]

Here you go:

<snip picture>
Canon too.

Sorry about the size.

It's already been shown that X-Wing fire can converge, but I fail to see how this picture shows something that can't be perspective.

Are you blind? These shots are fired TO THE LEFT. The cockpit is clearly centered perfectly I don't give a flying fuck if they converge or if it's because perspective, they are fucking OFF-AXIS

[Metrion Cascade]

Here you go:

<snip picture>
Canon too.

Sorry about the size.

It's already been shown that X-Wing fire can converge, but I fail to see how this picture shows something that can't be perspective.

Are you blind? These shots are fired TO THE LEFT. The cockpit is clearly centered perfectly I don't give a flying fuck if they converge or if it's because perspective, they are fucking OFF-AXIS

Did you not catch the OTHER post where I mentioned that I didn't see the animation at first and conceded? When I first saw the picture, it was still because of my connection speed. I didn't see the off-axis firing until later, and when I did I conceded.

[Alyeska]

Delta Flyer has 100% weapons coverage at every angle. Starfleet beam phasers and associated targeting systems also have a demonstrated 99% accuracy rating.

I'm tempted to bring out Trekmiss.avi, but it's already been posted in this thread.

Go ahead. It won't do jack shit. There is exactly ONE clip of a Starfleet ship missing in there.

[Alyeska]

I'm tempted to bring out Trekmiss.avi, but it's already been posted in this thread.

It's not really applicable anyway, since an X-Wing is a fraction of the size of the ships in that clip.

The Clip is entirely irrelevent because it ignores the fact that Starfleet beam weapon accuracy is in the 99% range and this includes every known example of Starfleet ships missing with beam phasers (post TOS) of which this clip only has one of them shown (there are 4 other examples not shown)

[Connor MacLeod]

I'm seeing a lack of actual evidence of capabilities for the Delta Flyer on the Trek side - I would assume one would provide instances of things like firepower, acceleration, manuverability, etc. before claiming victory. It doesn't matter much how accurate the phasers are if they only pump out a few tens of GW against the X-wing, for example.

[Connor MacLeod]

Besides which, claiming that 99% accuracy against Federation targets means near-perfect accuracy against the X-wing is rather questionable in any case.

[Alyeska]

Besides which, claiming that 99% accuracy against Federation targets means near-perfect accuracy against the X-wing is rather questionable in any case.

Insurrection shows the off axis and quick aiming capabilities along with pinpoint precision (going after subsystems quickly) are nothing to laugh at.

[Connor MacLeod]

And if they have this level of near-perfect accuracy with their beam weapons, why does the Defiant miss? They can fire off-axis to some degree can they not yet they were missing. I find it odd they would possess such inordinately accurate targeting systems yet neglect to put it on one of their own dedicated warships.

And IIRC, when the Dominion attacked DS9 prior to Sisko and the rest abandoning the station, it was mounting federation weapons (I could be wrong about that.)

On top of that, I would find it hard to believe that the Federation would consider anyone a threat if their targeting accuracy with weapons was so greatly above their opponents (it would in fact comprise a substantial technical advantage.)

[Alyeska]

And if they have this level of near-perfect accuracy with their beam weapons, why does the Defiant miss? They can fire off-axis to some degree can they not yet they were missing. I find it odd they would possess such inordinately accurate targeting systems yet neglect to put it on one of their own dedicated warships.

The Defiant is nothing more then a red herring. It fires fixed axis weapons.

And IIRC, when the Dominion attacked DS9 prior to Sisko and the rest abandoning the station, it was mounting federation weapons (I could be wrong about that.)

Hooked up to a Cardassian computer system. Actualy very little was Federation. The only Federation systems were the popup phasers from the landing pads and it was still hooked into the Cardassian computers.

On top of that, I would find it hard to believe that the Federation would consider anyone a threat if their targeting accuracy with weapons was so greatly above their opponents (it would in fact comprise a substantial technical advantage.)

It could be Starfleet weapons are slightly inferior in firepower. That would make fewer enemy strikes equaly as dangerous.

[Rogue 9]

Delta Flyer has 100% weapons coverage at every angle. Starfleet beam phasers and associated targeting systems also have a demonstrated 99% accuracy rating.

I'm tempted to bring out Trekmiss.avi, but it's already been posted in this thread.

Go ahead. It won't do jack shit. There is exactly ONE clip of a Starfleet ship missing in there.

Yes, a clip of a Starfleet ship missing another big ol' starship. An X-wing would fly circles around the E-D any day. I don't know about the Delta Flyer personally, though.

[Kuja]

Besides which, claiming that 99% accuracy against Federation targets means near-perfect accuracy against the X-wing is rather questionable in any case.

Insurrection shows the off axis and quick aiming capabilities along with pinpoint precision (going after subsystems quickly) are nothing to laugh at.

IIRC, wasn't that at point-blank range and starship against starship?

[Metrion Cascade]

Alyeska, I hate to say it, but anyone who could see out of a window (the way Wars gunners can) would have fared better in the Briar Patch, the Mutara Nebula, or the Bazen Rift. There was no excuse for any of the misses in Insurrection or Wrath of Khan, or for most of the misses in Nemesis. In most instances, the target would have filled the bulk of a visual gunner's field of view. In fact, some shots were so bad I'd rather suggest that they were malfunctions - that the phasers successfully targeted the enemy but were physically unable to fire in the same direction.

[Connor MacLeod]

The Defiant is nothing more then a red herring. It fires fixed axis weapons.

They can make their beam weapons off axis but not the pulse weapons? I think not. Watching Wayne's clip, I can spot several examples suggesting it can in fact fire off-axis (For example, there is one firing on that Excelsior-class Lakota, and those are clearly not converging shots, yet several prior example show the Defiant's fire converging in the distance. I spotted at least one other example of slight "off center" firing in First Contact. And I believe there were several against Cardassian ships (or Dominion ones) - that were again later in the clip. Clearly they can fire off-axis to some degree, enough at least that they should be able to compensate to allow for better accuracy. Yet they do not.

Hooked up to a Cardassian computer system. Actualy very little was Federation. The only Federation systems were the popup phasers from the landing pads and it was still hooked into the Cardassian computers.

So Cardassian, Romulan, Klingon, and Dominion energy weapons are substantially less accurate than Federation ones? Again this begs the question why this has not appeared as such a notable advantage in warfare. Some of those "misses" were at incredibly short ranges and against very small targets. And some of those misses appeared to include warheads, not just beams (at least I presume those were warheads being launched.) Are those Cardassian as well?

Which also brings up another question - at what ranges is this "near perfect" accuracy applicable, and against what targets?

It could be Starfleet weapons are slightly inferior in firepower. That would make fewer enemy strikes equaly as dangerous.

If Starfleet has weapons 70% the power of their opponents (a rather generous definition of "slight"), and their opponent has say 60% accuracy, Starfleet would still be inflicting more damage, particularily over a sustained engagement. (and this largely neglects other factors, such as range, weapons types and numbers, etc.) Sorry, a slight difference in firepower does not offset what appears to be a substantial edge in accuracy.

[Lord of the Farce]

At that levle of shield strength the thing would be immune to other starfighter attacks until the heat spikes wore down the generators. This is not he case. Further, I'd like to know what makes you think length of the ship is a factor in determining shield strength.

You're right. After actually doing the number crunching, unless Padme's starship is actually suppose to have shielding of 2e12 watts, it's obvious that it should be practically immune to anything even a squadron of starfighter can throw at it.

[Connor MacLeod]

What was the vessel that missed the Jem'Hadar ship when it rams the Galaxy at the end of the trekmiss clip? It looked like it might have been a Federation ship of some kind (runabout?) but I'm not sure.

[Master of Ossus]

What was the vessel that missed the Jem'Hadar ship when it rams the Galaxy at the end of the trekmiss clip? It looked like it might have been a Federation ship of some kind (runabout?) but I'm not sure.

It was a runabout.

I don't know why the Defiant isn't considered a UFP starship, seeing as how it was built and designed by the UFP (except for the cloaking device, which didn't exist in the second Defiant which also missed in the clip). Moreover, the big bad Borg missed several times in the clip, as did all of the UFP's consistent allies and enemies.

[Connor MacLeod]

What was the vessel that missed the Jem'Hadar ship when it rams the Galaxy at the end of the trekmiss clip? It looked like it might have been a Federation ship of some kind (runabout?) but I'm not sure.

It was a runabout.

I don't know why the Defiant isn't considered a UFP starship, seeing as how it was built and designed by the UFP (except for the cloaking device, which didn't exist in the second Defiant which also missed in the clip). Moreover, the big bad Borg missed several times in the clip, as did all of the UFP's consistent allies and enemies.

I think the point was supposed to be that the Defiant's guns supposedly do not fire "off center", thus they cannot adjust their aiming (hence can generate misses by virtue of their fixed-axis.) However, this is clearly untrue, as I pointed out. (Besides which, what person would be idiotic enough to design a gun designed to fire synchronized volleys only to have half your shots missing any given target??)

In any case, if the Runabout missed the Jem'Hadar bug, that suggests at least two instances involving beam phasers missing relatively small targets at close range (Capital ships are maybe easier to hit.) I believe there was another someone mentioned to me on ICQ, but it leads me to believe this "99% phaser accuracy" thing is somewhat exaggerated, even if we assume Wayne's "Trekmiss" is inapplicable.

(For that matter, the generalized assumption that Federation phasers are going to be equally effective against all targets and all conditions is rather foolish - there are any number of factors which could affect range up to and including EW, range, target size/nature, mobility, sensors, computer predictive nature, etc.. At the best, the 99% phaser accuracy element is an optimistic potential accuray rating, not indiactive of any sort of effective accuracy rating.)