And now a "Survivor" scenario for the Trekkers.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Can we just VI her and get it over with?

[Stravo]

In fact, all of Team Wars drops dead because midichlorians don't exist. And the hypothetical can't happen because there's no way to get anyone to the planet in the first place.

Look Metrion makes yet ANOTHER unsubstantiated bullshit claim. Care to provide a source for the fact that life in Wars can't exist without Midichlorians? Other than you ass I mean.

It really doesn't have to be midichlorians themselves (although a statistical relationship was established by Qui-Gon in EP1). It is stated that Wars life can't survive without the Force. Hm.

PROVE IT. Point to a SINGLE FUCKING REFERENCE where that ridiculous claim you just made exists.

Nice one - I now have to admit that the presence of anything from Wars requires the Force to exist. This barely helps, since Anakin as of EP1 can only predict threats, not use TK or force lightning.

Do you whine this much in RL? You created this damned scenario and now you keep changing it because you don't like the results? Jesus.

[Gandalf]

Sorry for the mild hijack, but would this be a more interesting scenario?

Trek:
Sisko
Kira
Worf
Bashir

Wars:
Han
Leia
Chewie
Lando
(Luke always seemed to be somewhere else, and these guys seemed to always make a cool team.)

[Metrion Cascade]

In fact, all of Team Wars drops dead because midichlorians don't exist. And the hypothetical can't happen because there's no way to get anyone to the planet in the first place.

Look Metrion makes yet ANOTHER unsubstantiated bullshit claim. Care to provide a source for the fact that life in Wars can't exist without Midichlorians? Other than you ass I mean.

It really doesn't have to be midichlorians themselves (although a statistical relationship was established by Qui-Gon in EP1). It is stated that Wars life can't survive without the Force. Hm.

PROVE IT. Point to a SINGLE FUCKING REFERENCE where that ridiculous claim you just made exists.

Qui-Gon's explanation to Anakin on Tatooine in Episode I.

Nice one - I now have to admit that the presence of anything from Wars requires the Force to exist. This barely helps, since Anakin as of EP1 can only predict threats, not use TK or force lightning.

Do you whine this much in RL? You created this damned scenario and now you keep changing it because you don't like the results? Jesus.

Do you always jump on people when they CONCEDE a point? If I'm right and all Wars life requires the Force, you get a Force-sensitive Anakin. If I'm wrong and Wars life can exist without the Force, then nothing stops me from ruling the Force out. And you haven't said anything about who wins.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Do you always jump on people when they CONCEDE a point?

Only when they're a whiny little bitch about losing.

Like you.

[Darth Wong]

Do you always jump on people when they CONCEDE a point? If I'm right and all Wars life requires the Force, you get a Force-sensitive Anakin.

Your scenario does not allow for that. It is explicitly written in such a manner that it is obvious suspension of disbelief has been rejected.

If I'm wrong and Wars life can exist without the Force, then nothing stops me from ruling the Force out.

Actually, the fact that all life CREATES the Force rules that out.

And you haven't said anything about who wins.

Obviously, both sides die. They don't have sufficient equipment or power to get out alive.

[Metrion Cascade]

Care to provide a SINGLE instance where Odo goes "T-1000" on ANYONE in DS9? He has routinely gone hand to hand against his foes, never forming blades or any weapons with his body. Nice pulling abilities out of your ass on that one.

If Odo can form metal chairs and birds, he can form knives, although I suppose that he would choose not to unless forced (he HAS killed in combat). This still doesn't stop him from wrapping around Chewie (as we HAVE seen him do when struck) or simply hiding, or disguising himself as a fellow Warsie, or turning into a ten foot baseball bat for Data to swing.

Ah I see, let's give Odo abilities he has NEVER exhibited. There have been plenty of instances where Odo "going T-1000" would have been very helpful for himself and the crew such as the Klingon attack on the station where he did NOT 'wrap around" anyone or form a baseball bat for anyone to use or form blades. Even EVIL Odo from the mirror uyniverse did not form blades, he used a fucking gun. Sorry, we don't take kindly to people giving abilites to charcters that they have never demomstrated.

You know what? Anakin can cause poeple to explode by concentrating but he chooses not to, but he will in this scenario.

This is only possible if you concede that including Wars life necessitates including the Force. As for Odo, I'll concede edged weapons (which by the same standard means no unseen abilities for Anakin). I won't concede wrapping around, because he has done it onscreen.

And we know that the EMH can hide his emitter inside himself. So he puts it dead center, and Chewie has to beat down a moving forcefield to get at it.

Care to provide any sort of evidence that the Doctor is hardier than an average human being?

VOY "Renaissance Man" (I'm not sure of the title, but I did see the episode) shows the Doctor completely and repeatedly outclassing an armed Tuvok in close quarters combat. There is also an example of a Fed-projected Holodoctor (albeit not the real EMH) tossing Tuvok and Paris around one-handed, in the Insurrection Alpha program. Clearly Fed projectors can do the physical work of overpowering a human.

This is hardier than your average human? Strength is one thing but you're saying that EMH can simply shrug off a Wookie whaling on him.

Assuming the Wookie's hand even hits him. How many times has the Doc just dematerialized to let a sword or other implement pass through him? And why can't the Doc put the emitter in his shoe (as he did in VOY "Renaissance Man") so the Wookiee never even sees it? And before we even worry about protecting the emitter or how strong its case is, what proof is there of a Wookiee being stronger than a Vulcan (who can't breach the Doc's forcefields)?

I notice a very annoying tendency for you to just throw out these statements without any fucking evidence but suddenly the otherside has to walk you through every iteration of pro Wars evidence.

Since when does anyone simply take the other side's evidence to mean exactly what they say it means without challenge?

When things are plainly on screen like X-Wings firing off axis then it is annoying. Why jump in a debate if you're not famaliar with the more basic elements of proof?

I DIDN'T SEE the off-axis-firing vid at first. When I did see it, I conceded.

[Metrion Cascade]

Do you always jump on people when they CONCEDE a point? If I'm right and all Wars life requires the Force, you get a Force-sensitive Anakin.

Your scenario does not allow for that. It is explicitly written in such a manner that it is obvious suspension of disbelief has been rejected.

If I'm wrong and Wars life can exist without the Force, then nothing stops me from ruling the Force out.

Actually, the fact that all life CREATES the Force rules that out.

And you haven't said anything about who wins.

Obviously, both sides die. They don't have sufficient equipment or power to get out alive.

What about the escape ship?

[Darth Wong]

What about the escape ship?

Geordi can see in the dark which is an advantage, but he's wimpy. Everyone else can't see, and half of them are powerless or dead from the get-go. It would have helped if you'd armed them.

[Metrion Cascade]

What about the escape ship?

Geordi can see in the dark which is an advantage, but he's wimpy. Everyone else can't see, and half of them are powerless or dead from the get-go. It would have helped if you'd armed them.

Riddick was the only one in Pitch Black who could see, and he saved a little girl and an imam. And Kes can "see" through matter. We also aren't sure about the limitations of Data's vision (we know his underwater vision is better than a human's), and we have no idea about Odo (who makes brand new eyes every morning) or the Holodoc.

Geordi could be killed by the bats. Data, Odo, and the Holodoc might not even be recognized as food by the bats. Data should suffer at least some damage if attacked, but probably not enough to make him unsalvageable. Odo is a munchkin - he has no bones to break or blood to spill or vital organs, so the bats can't kill him. Ditto for the Holodoc, who might also be able to keep his emitter out of the way so the bats don't accidentally damage it (they can't target it specifically because they don't realize what it is). Kes is easy meat, except she can move objects, cause explosions at will, boil liquids (the bats have body fluids), and will the whole swarm into transwarp.

[Durandal]

Data as of Nemesis is a cloud of vapor. He contributes nothing. Maybe a pungent odor. Odo is not solid, therefore he serves little purpose. He could be a puddle, and Chewie might almost slip. Or something.

I said Data's still in one piece. And Odo can be solid at will. He's what's called a Founder.

Data, as of Star Trek: Nemesis, is dead. You explicitly stated that Odo was not solid. If you're too stupid to realize the implications of your own statements, that's not my problem.

I never agreed to assume that Kes' powers are derived from the Force. I did say Kes has all her powers, therefore she does until I say otherwise. Don't like it, write your own hypothetical. I suppose you'll correct me on which characters I picked next?

I'm correcting the logical consistency of your scenario. You're violating logical parsimony in assuming that their powers must come from a different source. The difference between this scenario and Ted C's is that you've deliberately changed the rules that versus debates normally operate by with no good reason, while Ted C simply put together a gross mismatch. They are not analogous.

[Darth Wong]

Geordi can see in the dark which is an advantage, but he's wimpy. Everyone else can't see, and half of them are powerless or dead from the get-go. It would have helped if you'd armed them.

Riddick was the only one in Pitch Black who could see, and he saved a little girl and an imam.

He could also kick Geordi's ass six ways from Sunday. As I said, Geordi is wimpy.

And Kes can "see" through matter. We also aren't sure about the limitations of Data's vision (we know his underwater vision is better than a human's), and we have no idea about Odo (who makes brand new eyes every morning) or the Holodoc.

Kes will have no powers and the Holodoc won't work in this no-suspension-of-disbelief scenario (and don't try to rewrite it now), Data's head will explode and kill everyone close to him because positrons are antimatter, and Odo is a blob of inert liquid.

Geordi could be killed by the bats. Data, Odo, and the Holodoc might not even be recognized as food by the bats. Data should suffer at least some damage if attacked, but probably not enough to make him unsalvageable. Odo is a munchkin - he has no bones to break or blood to spill or vital organs, so the bats can't kill him. Ditto for the Holodoc, who might also be able to keep his emitter out of the way so the bats don't accidentally damage it (they can't target it specifically because they don't realize what it is). Kes is easy meat, except she can move objects, cause explosions at will, boil liquids (the bats have body fluids), and will the whole swarm into transwarp.

See above.

[Crown]

Fuck it ... the Star Wars team wins. Why? Because Han is in carbonite. Chewie the ever loyal, realises that he doesn't have a chance in hell, but knows that the sun rises in X days which means that the bats go into hidding.

He sets the timmer on the carbonite to dissolve just after sunrise has come, leaves a note to Han, drags him outside and then dies.

Since the Trek team is made up of morons, they all die, as do the rest of the Wars team as they have no weapons. The only one left standing is Han (or lying, which ever way you think about it) once the sun has risen, and the carbonite has been melted!

There you go, easy. Star Wars wins by default. Too easy!

[Metrion Cascade]

Data as of Nemesis is a cloud of vapor. He contributes nothing. Maybe a pungent odor. Odo is not solid, therefore he serves little purpose. He could be a puddle, and Chewie might almost slip. Or something.

I said Data's still in one piece. And Odo can be solid at will. He's what's called a Founder.

Data, as of Star Trek: Nemesis, is dead. You explicitly stated that Odo was not solid. If you're too stupid to realize the implications of your own statements, that's not my problem.

I said Data's alive. Period. Looking for ways around that is a copout. I also said Odo was "not solidified." That is a reference to the time the Founders made him a permanently solid human as punishment for killing another Founder. Meaning not that he is stuck in his liquid state, but that he is still able to shapeshift. Stop telling me what I meant.

I never agreed to assume that Kes' powers are derived from the Force. I did say Kes has all her powers, therefore she does until I say otherwise. Don't like it, write your own hypothetical. I suppose you'll correct me on which characters I picked next?

I'm correcting the logical consistency of your scenario. You're violating logical parsimony in assuming that their powers must come from a different source. The difference between this scenario and Ted C's is that you've deliberately changed the rules that versus debates normally operate by with no good reason, while Ted C simply put together a gross mismatch. They are not analogous.

In the above quote, there are no references to Ted C's scenario. And it's a moot point, since I've found something that actually DOES constitute a contradiction (the Force either creates or is created by all Wars life, and hence their presence requires it). There is no contradiction in saying the powers come from a different source - Lucas makes it clear that his Force is some spiritual concept, while Trek makes it clear that while things like telekinesis and telepathy are present, they are caused by more mundane laws of physics and nothing is supernatural - not even the Q.

[Metrion Cascade]

Geordi can see in the dark which is an advantage, but he's wimpy. Everyone else can't see, and half of them are powerless or dead from the get-go. It would have helped if you'd armed them.

Riddick was the only one in Pitch Black who could see, and he saved a little girl and an imam.

He could also kick Geordi's ass six ways from Sunday. As I said, Geordi is wimpy.

And Kes can "see" through matter. We also aren't sure about the limitations of Data's vision (we know his underwater vision is better than a human's), and we have no idea about Odo (who makes brand new eyes every morning) or the Holodoc.

Kes will have no powers and the Holodoc won't work in this no-suspension-of-disbelief scenario (and don't try to rewrite it now), Data's head will explode and kill everyone close to him because positrons are antimatter, and Odo is a blob of inert liquid.

Geordi could be killed by the bats. Data, Odo, and the Holodoc might not even be recognized as food by the bats. Data should suffer at least some damage if attacked, but probably not enough to make him unsalvageable. Odo is a munchkin - he has no bones to break or blood to spill or vital organs, so the bats can't kill him. Ditto for the Holodoc, who might also be able to keep his emitter out of the way so the bats don't accidentally damage it (they can't target it specifically because they don't realize what it is). Kes is easy meat, except she can move objects, cause explosions at will, boil liquids (the bats have body fluids), and will the whole swarm into transwarp.

See above.

Your "suspension of disbelief" scenario no longer applies. Stravo proved that the Wars characters can't be included without the Force, so it's still present.

[Darth Wong]

Your "suspension of disbelief" scenario no longer applies. Stravo proved that the Wars characters can't be included without the Force, so it's still present.

Sure it is, if you rewrite the scenario. However, as written, it makes no sense at all unless we are rejecting suspension of disbelief.

PS. One more reason Kes would have no powers is that she didn't have those powers until her "ascension to godhood", and you have explicitly defined her as being stuck in the ship with everyone else after nightfall. Obviously, this is pre-ascension Kes.

[Metrion Cascade]

Another reason your "suspension of disbelief" scenario doesn't automatically mean everyone dies - Geordi is still around, as is Kes. And Data doesn't explode. Antimatter has already been synthesized and contained in labs.

[Metrion Cascade]

Your "suspension of disbelief" scenario no longer applies. Stravo proved that the Wars characters can't be included without the Force, so it's still present.

Sure it is, if you rewrite the scenario. However, as written, it makes no sense at all unless we are rejecting suspension of disbelief.

PS. One more reason Kes would have no powers is that she didn't have those powers until her "ascension to godhood", and you have explicitly defined her as being stuck in the ship with everyone else after nightfall. Obviously, this is pre-ascension Kes.

I said she was IN the ship. I didn't say she was stuck.

[Darth Wong]

Another reason your "suspension of disbelief" scenario doesn't automatically mean everyone dies - Geordi is still around, as is Kes.

Why would Geordi or Kes die in a non-suspension of disbelief scenario? Nothing about them is impossible (assuming we're talking about pre-ascension Kes).

And Data doesn't explode. Antimatter has already been synthesized and contained in labs.

Of course it has, but it can only be contained in vacuum chambers with confinement fields. Using it as a replacement for electrons in a computer would result in an explosion.

[Darth Wong]

I said she was IN the ship. I didn't say she was stuck.

How can a non-corporeal being be "in" the ship? And why would she still be there after nightfall if she can leave? Are you trying to rewrite your own scenario again?

Doesn't matter though; in a non-suspension of disbelief scenario, impossible powers such as the Force are disallowed (after all, that was your big gripe about the Force, right? And that's the reason you disallowed it?), and Kes' powers are impossible.

[Durandal]

I said Data's alive. Period. Looking for ways around that is a copout. I also said Odo was "not solidified." That is a reference to the time the Founders made him a permanently solid human as punishment for killing another Founder. Meaning not that he is stuck in his liquid state, but that he is still able to shapeshift. Stop telling me what I meant.

Try making yourself clearer first.

In the above quote, there are no references to Ted C's scenario.

Oh puh-fucking-leeze. We all know why you posted this absurd scenario.

And it's a moot point, since I've found something that actually DOES constitute a contradiction (the Force either creates or is created by all Wars life, and hence their presence requires it). There is no contradiction in saying the powers come from a different source - Lucas makes it clear that his Force is some spiritual concept, while Trek makes it clear that while things like telekinesis and telepathy are present, they are caused by more mundane laws of physics and nothing is supernatural - not even the Q.

I've highlighted your latest bit of contradictory lunacy. According to you, by taking away the Force, the characters cannot exist. Thus your scenario is even more absurd than before. Are you going to crow about the triumph of Star Trek characters over Star Wars characters in a scenario where, according to you, Star Wars characters cannot exist? Woohoo! Star Trek triumphs over ... nothing!

Furthermore, the Force has physical effects and interactions with the universe, therefore it must, itself, bow to the laws of physics. Your interpretation of what the writers mean is utterly irrelevant to a physical description of either phenomenon.

[Metrion Cascade]

Another reason your "suspension of disbelief" scenario doesn't automatically mean everyone dies - Geordi is still around, as is Kes.

Why would Geordi or Kes die in a non-suspension of disbelief scenario? Nothing about them is impossible (assuming we're talking about pre-ascension Kes).

And Data doesn't explode. Antimatter has already been synthesized and contained in labs.

Of course it has, but it can only be contained in vacuum chambers with confinement fields. Using it as a replacement for electrons in a computer would result in an explosion.

What proof is there that the positrons are being used in the exact same fashion as electrons rather than being involved in some other way?

[Metrion Cascade]

I said Data's alive. Period. Looking for ways around that is a copout. I also said Odo was "not solidified." That is a reference to the time the Founders made him a permanently solid human as punishment for killing another Founder. Meaning not that he is stuck in his liquid state, but that he is still able to shapeshift. Stop telling me what I meant.

Try making yourself clearer first.

In the above quote, there are no references to Ted C's scenario.

Oh puh-fucking-leeze. We all know why you posted this absurd scenario.

And it's a moot point, since I've found something that actually DOES constitute a contradiction (the Force either creates or is created by all Wars life, and hence their presence requires it). There is no contradiction in saying the powers come from a different source - Lucas makes it clear that his Force is some spiritual concept, while Trek makes it clear that while things like telekinesis and telepathy are present, they are caused by more mundane laws of physics and nothing is supernatural - not even the Q.

I've highlighted your latest bit of contradictory lunacy. According to you, by taking away the Force, the characters cannot exist. Thus your scenario is even more absurd than before. Are you going to crow about the triumph of Star Trek characters over Star Wars characters in a scenario where, according to you, Star Wars characters cannot exist? Woohoo! Star Trek triumphs over ... nothing!

Furthermore, the Force has physical effects and interactions with the universe, therefore it must, itself, bow to the laws of physics. Your interpretation of what the writers mean is utterly irrelevant to a physical description of either phenomenon.

Yes, dumbass, I myself said it was contradictory. Which is why I then said that I cannot include Wars characters and deny the Force at the same time.

[Metrion Cascade]

I said she was IN the ship. I didn't say she was stuck.

How can a non-corporeal being be "in" the ship? And why would she still be there after nightfall if she can leave? Are you trying to rewrite your own scenario again?

Doesn't matter though; in a non-suspension of disbelief scenario, impossible powers such as the Force are disallowed (after all, that was your big gripe about the Force, right? And that's the reason you disallowed it?), and Kes' powers are impossible.

I never said the Force is disallowed because it's impossible. I offered no reason at all why the Force wasn't present.

Getting anyone to the planet is impossible as well. But I've already done it (and you've already accepted that the planet exists and the other characters are on it), so disbelief isn't the problem. And Kes never became non-corporeal. She returned in VOY "Fury," very much corporeal, and wrecked bulkheads at will, and changed shape (only insofar as it made her look like her younger self), and traveled back in time just by putting her hands on the warp core. And she's in the ship after nightfall because I said so. Nobody has any actual reason for being on this planet except the competition.

[Metrion Cascade]

So to recap, we have team Trek:

- a bullet-resistant machine with superhuman strength, speed, and sensory perception, who has no blood for the bats to smell, and can't be completely destroyed by them, and can be salvaged as long as his head is intact
- a shapeshifter who can form metal objects and sharp edges (the burden of proof is on anyone who says he can't do both at once) and form restraints, barriers, and animals (all shown onscreen), and has no blood for the bats to smell, and can probably form anatomy capable of seeing infrared or echolocating (there are Earth animals that do each), and can't be injured at all by the bats
- a guy who can see the whole EM spectrum
- a forcefield with superhuman strength and speed, who has no blood for the bats to smell, and whose emitter can be hidden inside him
- a telekinetic who can will things into transwarp, cause explosions at will, and boil blood

Team Wars:
- a little boy who can sense things a few seconds before they happen
- a block of metal (who can be unfrozen, but you might want to use him as a shield - I'm assuming the bats can't penetrate Carbonite)
- a Wookiee
- a cartoon liable to be killed by the Wookiee

Assuming the Wookie even figures out where Team Trek is, and can catch Data or the Holodoc or a fucking bird named Odo, he loses almost instantly. Data punches him too hard or nerve pinches him. Or Odo goes T-1000 on him (or disguises himself as water and does the Alien thing after Chewy drinks him, or forms a wall, or a blunt object, or just hides). Or he tries to hit the Holodoc, and burns the fuck out of his hand (in the program where the Holodoc fought Beowulf, a Viking tried to hit him with a sword and the sword got extremely hot when it passed through him) or gets his ass kicked (like Tuvok and Paris) plain and simple. Or Kes looks at him funny and he boils or his head explodes or he finds himself a few lightyears away, breathing vacuum. Let's think about cooperating.