The official Revolutions DISCUSSION thread

[Death from the Sea]

i would like to comment on the flaws of the zionists tactics.

This occured to me for some stupid reason this afternoon.

The general guy isn't actually a general, he has no real military training... zion has been around for 100 hundred years, started from scratch from a handful of people.

maybe he was a general in the matrix.

The only reason he is in charge is because he showed an aptitude for strategy... but does he have any military training beyond what is obviously a very basic arena, against a predictable enemy?

it is hinted at that previous machine attacks have been pretty much the same, meaning that they are likely to have a set "book" of tactics for dealing with them.

However this is obviously something different for them, he has to think on his feet, and formulate a plan to deal with it. With no formal training made up of years and years of advice from experienced military generals? not likely to be a very good plan and as such is inherintly (sp?) going to be flawed.

although, i doubt the wachowski brothers considered that anyways.

I don't think the W bros considered alot of things....

[Zac Naloen]

maybe he was a general in the matrix.

he was never in the matrix, that was my main point... he grew up in zion, meaning he had to learn from whatever shitty education system they would likely have, and can't be plugged in to have all this tactical stuff uploaded, he would have to learn the traditional way...

[zombie84]

I actually thought that the incompetance of the Zion seige on the part of both forces involved is highly overexagerated. True, there are some glaring holes in both forces stragegy's, but there are a lot of little details in the film that actually address many of the criticisms, and upon seeing the film again, i noticed a lot of clever little bits that i never thought of before.

-Why do the Zionites not just blow a large scale EMP when the Sentinels first reach the dock? many reasons.

One--for whatever reason, they didnt have any EMP's. I am assuming they only had a limited amount and that they are all placed on the ships (which were all destroyed in the failed counter-attack). Lock says in one scene: "the machines cant possibly know that we dont have any EMP's, so they'll send them in waves".

which leads to two: the machines are prepared for an EMP assault and an EMP blast will cripple the Zion defense network. When Niobe's ship crashes into the dock and blows its EMP it effectivly terminates the massive wave of Sentinels but its effect on Zion is perhaps worse. Locke is furious at Morpheus because all their equipment is fucked--the machines send in the second wave of Sentinels, which is even bigger than the first, rerouting all Sentinels in their disposal to the attack. If it werent for Neo, the humans would have been killed (though at that point they were probably fucked anyway).

The Zion strategy is to await each wave and simply gun them down, wave by wave. The Sentinel force is of course enormous and much too large for the Zionites to stand much of a chance against. Therefor a counter-attack is sent before the machines even reach Zion, in order to defeat or at least cripple the Sentinel force. Five ships are dispached, and they should have been able to seriously hamper the machines forces--however Bane of course sets the EMP off early, resulting in all 5 ships being destroyed, but that is something that could never have been predicted.

Once the machines forces reach Zion, they are waiting with massive firepower. Multiple mounted machine guns/cannons sit atop the roofs of the central control room in the centre of the dock, and dozens of APU's and an undisclosed amount of infantry meet the Sentinel force head on. While these target the Sentinel swarm, multiple bazooka teams are waiting in position to disable the drills that fall through. Ammo teams are waiting in an armored room where computer displays alert which APU needs reloading--one man carries a trolly of ammo to it while two other men provide cover fire. Meanwhile, Locke sits in a bunker, giving orders and organizing strategies.

The plan is to win the battle in the dock. However should that be lost, they are to retreat to the temple where the other half of the infantry is waiting in backup. The Zionites blow the passage ways to slow down the Sentinels while the Zionites prepare themselves. As the machines finally reach the Temple, they are forced into the temple into a bottleneck, allowing the Zionites to concentrate all firepower on the remaining Sentinels. Between waves, teams are sent out to scavege and reload.

Of course the battle is frought with some logical errors (the APU's being a main one, but one i can accept for the purposes of the story/characters) but the Zionites plan is not the catastrophy many make it out to be. The machine's plan is much more illogical, but even then there are some overlooked strategies:

-The machines anticipate that the Zionites will be equipped with EMP's. Therefore sending all the forces at once is illogical, and they instead send in multiple waves of sentinels.
-Once the dock roof is breached, the giant drill bit falls to the bottom, puncturing a way through. The Sentinels rush out but are met with heavy firepower, so they begin to disperse themselves so that the Zionites cant concentrate firepower in any one area.
-Meanwhile, the drill bit unfolds into a giant robot and resumes drilling to the next level. Sentinels are then ordered to protect the drill, and begin swarming around it and taking the rocket hits.
-The Sentinel swarm reforms and swarms over the main control room, destroying it and the mounted guns on top of it.
-Meanwhile, the Drill bit is damaged, but reforms itself to operate with only two legs
-The Sentinels then break off into multiple teams and begin swarming the APU's (to varrying degrees of success). Meanwhile, smaller Sentinel teams begin chasing down the infantry and bazooka teams.
-As the Zion forces are being depleted, the second wave enters, using the same tactics, creating two fronts for the Zionites to concentrate on

Morpheus then releases the EMP, killing off the remaining Sentinels.

-The machines then send the last wave, rerouting all Sentinels to Zion and resulting in a force that is the biggest yet
-The remaining Zionites are quickly killed and begin to retreat to the Temple
-The new wave of sentinels then attach themselves to the drill bit and re-activate it
-The drill reaches Inner-Zion and punctures down to the Temple. The Sentinels then swarm in and completely overwhelm the miniscule Zion forces. Once the Zion army is defeated, the Sentinels simply massacre the defenseless civilians. Of course that lat bit never happened because Neo calls a truce.

So like i said, there a few holes, but to me those sound like pretty sound strategies. I know if you or I were to sit here and think about it we could maybe come up with errors and ways to improve it, but its important to also remember that the Zionites have very limited resources as well. But like i said, the strategies could be much more efficient (i.e. the machines simply Nuke or gas Zion) but its not something i'm going to bitch about and nitpick to death.

[Hotfoot]

maybe he was a general in the matrix.

he was never in the matrix, that was my main point... he grew up in zion, meaning he had to learn from whatever shitty education system they would likely have, and can't be plugged in to have all this tactical stuff uploaded, he would have to learn the traditional way...

Arguably, learning the "traditional" way is better than having a program downloaded into your brain, because it would mean that you're more likely to fully understand the material you're being taught and able to make improvisations, whereas the program learning is more along the lines of rote memorization. When people are freed from the Matrix, they bring with them whatever knowledge they had at the time of their liberation. However, the problem is that supposedly Zionists don't generally free anyone beyond a certain age. Freeing an Adult like Neo is a rarity, so it would seem they tend to target kids, perhaps college age and down. The chances of freeing someone with a good knowledge of tactics and strategy are going to be pretty slim.

[neoolong]

Matrix Revolutions streets on Jan. 6th if anybody cares.

Source.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Ouch.

[Stravo]

Matrix Revolutions streets on Jan. 6th if anybody cares.

Source.

I suspect we will see little in the way of extras.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

IIRC, the W bastards said that they're planning on holding out for a box set or such...

[Stravo]

IIRC, the W bastards said that they're planning on holding out for a box set or such...

Those FUCKERS. Let it die already, put out a great Revolutions DVD and just leave it be. I utterly refuse to buy movies I already have. It will have to be something like the FOTR and TTT extended edition in terms of extras and commentary if they're going to suck more dollars out of my wallet

[Spanky The Dolphin]

IIRC, the W bastards said that they're planning on holding out for a box set or such...

Those FUCKERS. Let it die already, put out a great Revolutions DVD and just leave it be. I utterly refuse to buy movies I already have. It will have to be something like the FOTR and TTT extended edition in terms of extras and commentary if they're going to suck more dollars out of my wallet

Actually, it was something decided months before either Reloaded or the Animatrix came out, when it was leaked that Warner was planing for a big SE of the first film to come out, then quickly shelved when the W bastards decided to hold the content for a set after Revolutions.

Or something like that. It was reported on The Digital Bits, but I don't have the time to dig around for it.

[zombie84]

The SE for the Matrix was just the original single-disk edition with the Matrix Revisited added as a second disk IIRC--so nothing new, just a combo packaging really.

[consequences]

Okay, my take on certain things:

Remember the perimeter defenses mentioned in Reloaded? The massive gun arrays we all would have wanted in the docks were probably concentrated in those, and not movable in the time the Zionists had, as the docks weren't supposed to be reached by the Machines in the first place. The Spare EMP generators were also probably in the perimeter defenses. The control lines for the perimeter defenses probably ran through the Dock, and were thoroughly fried by the Hammer's EMP, keeping them from stopping the Sentinel wave that came through the main door, and giving a Reason for Locke to be so pissed off.

Remember, that the Machine attack through the roof of the dock was an unexpected event, with only 48 hours for Zion to try to change its entire defensive strategy. Thus, the counterattack by the ships, to hopefully eliminate the Diggers, or at least delay them long enough to shift more of the heavy firepower from the perimeter.

Although I still believe that the Machines were just being sadistic.

[Uraniun235]

Going back to the philosophical bullshit:

This is an excerpt from a post I made on a forum that my friends and I use. The person I addressed this post to tends to subscribe to such notions as the collective unconscious (and he seems almost to fantasize of one day transcending into a collective consciousness like the Matrix supposedly is, or like humanity in End of Evangelion, or something like that), as well as mind over matter and other such silliness.

As we discussed in the chat, I've come to the realization that the major reason you like the Matrix and it's derivative work so much is because it subscribes to your metaphysical beliefs. However, not many people share these beliefs (or even have a cursory understanding of them), so many of them are confused utterly by the Matrix because they are not seeing it in the same metaphysical context as you are.

Others are irritated because they don't necessarily agree with the philosophical premise (as opposed to the plot premise, e.g. human Duracells) and are thus uninterested in seeing the movie facilitate this.

If the Wachowski Bros. were truly great, the symbolism and philosophical references would have been much more subtle. It is not the fault of "American cinema" that they were so blunt. If they were truly great, they would have slipped it all in stealthily, so that the studio wouldn't have anything to point at and say "too obfuscating". If they were great, then the studio would have watched the movie, and said 'Nice. We like the story and it's execution. Have this barrel of cash.'

The all-ignorant American audiences would have gone in, watched the movie, said "Wow. What a good story. They executed it so well." and left, perhaps with a little itch in the back of their head. Those 'in the know' would have been able to look through the plot, see the themes and subtleties, and appreciate the depth behind the story.

As it is, the brothers seem to have been forced to bring the themes to the surface... almost as if the plot and/or execution they have can't pull it's own weight, which would explain why Revolutions' box office pull is rapidly dwindling and why so many are coming away from the trilogy disgusted.

[zombie84]

Well, in Reloaded/Revolutions' case, the plot is about the symbolism--Neo's messiatic journey, the various notions of life and reality...when you're story could be billed under the alternate title of If Jesus Had A Minigun, its hard to keep the mythology/religious symbolism quiet, basically because the story itself is about the symbolism.

Most people object to the symbolism because they feel its too heavyhanded, or more frequently, they simply dont care about stuff like that (which is what you stated--they'd rather have a straightforward narrative, and the subtext remaining subtle); i think its unaviodable given the nature of the story that the Wachowski's were aiming for. Even the first film was fairly obvious in its symbolism--its just that the plot and the writing was loads more interesting, so it didnt seem as bad. Oracle's and Chosen One's and resurrections arent any better than Architects and Keymakers and ascentions.

[Master of Ossus]

Problem is, the symbolism doesn't lead anywhere. Contrary to the beliefs of its fans, it presents no consistent moral or philosophical message. It simply exists for the sake of existing, rather than to instruct or to guide.

[Slartibartfast]

I just realized that during the Zion battle, the machines were probably using the Centipede tactical operating system.

[Vympel]

I just realized that during the Zion battle, the machines were probably using the Centipede tactical operating system.

The fucking Zionists could'nt even figure out centipede.

[Patrick Degan]

Well, Lisa and I just came back from the late show. They could have deleted the entire Battle of Zion and not lost a thing from the movie; a showcase of idiotic tactics from both sides of the fence. Early on when the sentinels breached the dock dome with their huge drills, the first thing I thought was "if the Machines brought a nuke with them..." while Lisa caught on to the idea that the Zionists could have prepped EMPs to set off each time sentinels breached the dome. Basically just a whole filler sequence of trigger-pumping morons firing off several million rounds of ammo. And since you already knew the actual battle really wouldn't decide anything, there was no suspense and I found myself totally uninvolved with the fate of the defenders and growing impatient for the movie to just get back to Neo and Trinity's flight to see the Wizard...er...to the Machine City.

You sort of had to see the movie to see the character arcs wrap, but overall The Matrix fizzled out to a disappointing and predictable ending. The Wachowskis betrayed the anarchistic sensibilities of the first movie to take the easy, lazy way out by completing Neo's transformation into Jesus Christ Mk II. And in the end, nothing really is decided. The prewar status quo between Zion and the Machines is back in force, and despite the attempt at a sunny ending the situation has largely turned out as if Neo had simply went to the Source and selected the nucleus group for New Zion as the Architect had intended. The Matrix is reset, the peace won't last, humanity remains largely enslaved to the Machines, and in the future —presumably— the whole cycle starts again.

After hearing the bad buzz starting early on, going to see Revolutions was sort of like indulging a morbid curiosity. It spared me from being disappointed to see that the Matrix franchise actually imploded as completely as the message traffic on this and Darth Wong's review thread indicated. I didn't even bother trying to follow the pseudophilobabble of this movie because in the end it was more than obvious where the whole thing was headed.

Perhaps Neo was the lucky one. Having been blinded by Bane/Smith, he was spared from seeing half this movie, whereas the (sparse) audience saw the whole thing.

[2000AD]

The thing is, the ZIonists are so fucked now.
They've lost all their ships apart from one that is badly damaged.
They've lost all their APU's
Presumably most, if not all their defences, were fried by the EMP
One of their front doors is wide open.

It is going to take a major rebuild just to get them back to what they had and y then chances are the machines would have enough forces to just walk over them!

[Darth Wong]

Well, in Reloaded/Revolutions' case, the plot is about the symbolism--Neo's messiatic journey, the various notions of life and reality...when you're story could be billed under the alternate title of If Jesus Had A Minigun, its hard to keep the mythology/religious symbolism quiet, basically because the story itself is about the symbolism.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but symbolism is supposed to be buried in the story, not advertised and explained for you in lieu of a plot.

Most people object to the symbolism because they feel its too heavyhanded, or more frequently, they simply dont care about stuff like that (which is what you stated--they'd rather have a straightforward narrative, and the subtext remaining subtle); i think its unaviodable given the nature of the story that the Wachowski's were aiming for. Even the first film was fairly obvious in its symbolism--its just that the plot and the writing was loads more interesting, so it didnt seem as bad.

You don't understand; the first movie had a serviceable plot in the sense that you could follow what was happening and things happened for a plausible reason (once you accepted some of the gaping holes in the intrinsic setup). There might have been symbolism beneath the story, but that's where it belonged. In the second and third movie, a lot of things happened for no intelligible reason at all other than the writers' hamfisted attempts at symbolism, which is a completely different situation.

Oracle's and Chosen One's and resurrections arent any better than Architects and Keymakers and ascentions.

Oracles and Chosen Ones are so common in fiction that they can be considered a storytelling convention, and Neo's "resurrection" was just a matter of him figuring out the cheatcodes for this videogame. It made sense, albeit of a very predictable sort. It was not as ham-fisted as the "look at me! I"m profound!" symbolism of the second and third movies.

[Companion Cube]

Matrix Revolutions streets on Jan. 6th if anybody cares.

Source.

I suspect we will see little in the way of extras.

Battle for Zion 2: MBTs vs. Sentinels!

[Isil`Zha]

Eh, didn't watch it for the philosophy, but for what it's meant to be - entertainment. Though I do agree there was a bit too much symbolizm that ended up leading NOWHERE. The only thing that really bothered me was the open cockpit APUs.....

Also, why they didn't have some massive last resort EMP in the dock, or just in Zion somewhere - just shut down all their life support machines like they shut down their ships when they activate the EMP, eliminating the machine threat right there.

[Xon]

Matrix Revolutions streets on Jan. 6th if anybody cares.

Source.

I suspect we will see little in the way of extras.

Battle for Zion 2: MBTs vs. Sentinels!

Unless the Sentinels use those laser's they are supposed to have. Which they used maybe once or twice in the attack of Zion(It wasnt a siege, not by a long shot). All the Sentinels are going todo is scratch the paintwork.