Delta Flyer vs X-Wing

[Connor MacLeod]

Incidentally, back when the trailers for AOTC first came out, we saw the "asteroid hit" scene that The Dude e is referring to, and I did scaling and firepower calculations for that. My estimates actually came out pretty close to his. I'm inclined to agree with his assessment of the situation.

[Alyeska]

Alyeska, did you or did you not state:

Go ahead. It won't do jack shit. There is exactly ONE clip of a Starfleet ship missing in [Trekmiss.avi].

I had already stated in a PREVIOUS post that I was talking specificaly about Beam phasers.

Are the Defiant and the runabout Federation starships?

And they are mostly irrelevent. The Runabout is a good example, but the Defiant is not.

Your story has changed over the course of the thread, Alyeska. You can't claim one thing and then claim rebuttals to that are red herrings by changing your position.

Unless Poe has an attention span measured in seconds, he knows damned well what my position is. Just do a search on the Topic at SB to see how many times I've crushed him on the beam phaser issue.

Now, your latest position (which is significantly revised since you first entered the thread) claims a number of things that have not yet been proven:

1. Runabouts require manual targetting, but the Delta Flier has a computer controlling its weapons fire.

I concede this one. I was thinking about something else at the time.

2. Pulse-fire weapons, such as the Defiant's systems and torpedoes, cannot be used to gauge starship accuracy, even though they use UFP computer control systems.

Because these are fixed axis weapons that require the ship to be aimed on the target.

3. Your last post alternately claims that:

There is only one of these examples, its a pop-up phaser system that comes from the runabout pads. There were no pop-up torpedoes that Starfleet installed.

There were no popup phaser banks, only torpedo launchers. And yes, they were always there.

Two different contexts. Wayne was trying to say all the weapon systems on DS9 were new Federation. I pointed out this was wrong. The second statement is totaly in regards to a different part of the station and the topic indicates this.

Alyeska, you are being blatantly self-contradictory in this thread. I suggest you review your primary evidence. It might also be useful if you documented how you arrived at your conclusion of "99% beam weapon accuracy," since that's the one you now present (or is it? You recently claimed "90% is probably more accurate). Tell me, how did you arrive at this conclusion, since it keeps changing? Why are your conclusions changing, if you had conducted all of this research earlier in the thread?

Self contradictory? Hell no. I wasn't explicitly clear in the begining what I was talking about but any research on the topic at SB and you will know exactly what I am talking about. And where did I come up with the accuracy? I did a basic comparison of known misses to known hits.

[Metrion Cascade]

Alyeska, I hate to say it, but anyone who could see out of a window (the way Wars gunners can) would have fared better in the Briar Patch, the Mutara Nebula, or the Bazen Rift. There was no excuse for any of the misses in Insurrection or Wrath of Khan, or for most of the misses in Nemesis. In most instances, the target would have filled the bulk of a visual gunner's field of view. In fact, some shots were so bad I'd rather suggest that they were malfunctions - that the phasers successfully targeted the enemy but were physically unable to fire in the same direction.

The Mutara Nebula is a red herring. The Briar Patch accuracy was only a problem for the Torpedoes and I have never made claims for their being exceptionaly accurate.

How is it a red herring? Granted, we're not talking about the exact same type of weapon, but they are pulse phasers. And why the hell can't the torpedoes be fired in a STRAIGHT LINE, with the pilot simply pointing the ship at the target? And again, Nemesis was just embarassing. The phasers could easily have been visually targeted every time the Scimitar fired. A twelve year old with a joystick and a crosshairs would have nailed it. And why didn't they try proximity hits? We know that firing phasers at a photorp after it's launched causes some type of massive explosion that damages everything within half a dozen kilometres (perfect for the ranges seen in the Bazen Rift battle).

[Alyeska]

Alyeska, I hate to say it, but anyone who could see out of a window (the way Wars gunners can) would have fared better in the Briar Patch, the Mutara Nebula, or the Bazen Rift. There was no excuse for any of the misses in Insurrection or Wrath of Khan, or for most of the misses in Nemesis. In most instances, the target would have filled the bulk of a visual gunner's field of view. In fact, some shots were so bad I'd rather suggest that they were malfunctions - that the phasers successfully targeted the enemy but were physically unable to fire in the same direction.

The Mutara Nebula is a red herring. The Briar Patch accuracy was only a problem for the Torpedoes and I have never made claims for their being exceptionaly accurate.

How is it a red herring? Granted, we're not talking about the exact same type of weapon, but they are pulse phasers. And why the hell can't the torpedoes be fired in a STRAIGHT LINE, with the pilot simply pointing the ship at the target? And again, Nemesis was just embarassing. The phasers could easily have been visually targeted every time the Scimitar fired. A twelve year old with a joystick and a crosshairs would have nailed it. And why didn't they try proximity hits? We know that firing phasers at a photorp after it's launched causes some type of massive explosion that damages everything within half a dozen kilometres (perfect for the ranges seen in the Bazen Rift battle).

The TWOK example is a red herring because its 80 years out of date. The Nemesis example is also invalid because they DID target the Scimitar upon its weapons fire much of the time.

[Metrion Cascade]

I can't agree with Alyeska's excuses for all of the battles, and somehow I do think the Defiant's fire can converge (I'm sure I've seen it, and would love a screencap). But the weapons on DS9, Cardassian and Starfleet, are being controlled by Cardassian computers. Nary an LCARS screen appears in Ops, nor any flat Starfleet isolinear chips. All Cardassian graphics and isolinear rods. Perhaps the Cardassian computer is just too damned big to replace, or replacing it would require replacing vast amounts of other machinery on the station.

[Metrion Cascade]

The Mutara Nebula is a red herring. The Briar Patch accuracy was only a problem for the Torpedoes and I have never made claims for their being exceptionaly accurate.

How is it a red herring? Granted, we're not talking about the exact same type of weapon, but they are pulse phasers. And why the hell can't the torpedoes be fired in a STRAIGHT LINE, with the pilot simply pointing the ship at the target? And again, Nemesis was just embarassing. The phasers could easily have been visually targeted every time the Scimitar fired. A twelve year old with a joystick and a crosshairs would have nailed it. And why didn't they try proximity hits? We know that firing phasers at a photorp after it's launched causes some type of massive explosion that damages everything within half a dozen kilometres (perfect for the ranges seen in the Bazen Rift battle).

The TWOK example is a red herring because its 80 years out of date. The Nemesis example is also invalid because they DID target the Scimitar upon its weapons fire much of the time.

Yes. And they missed at very close ranges. They missed even when the ship was still visible. I see a ship, the torpedoes are headed right for it, and they actually turn away from it. Or it moves slightly (still visible) and they don't adjust course. I will say this - the phasers did do a lot better than the photorps.

[The Silence and I]

The Dude:
I can't check the time of the scene I refered to, as my sister has the TV and won't let me use it (yes, no DVD player on my PC ) Also, Free Host is too slow! I have been trying to upload screen caps for the past hour or so, no good. Maybie tommorro Anywho, Obi Wan comes from the left, and banks nearly into the camera while Slave-I follows a few dozen meters away. Obi Wan passes very close to a largish asteroid on the right hand side of the screen, and a blast from Slave one clips a protuding bump on the top of the asteroid. I scaled the bump to ~2 and 3 meters in diameter. This bump was mostly fragmented, with some heating effects visible. The majority of the asteroid was not damaged.

Now, if I understand you right, you have said part of the 'roid must be vaporized to produce mechanical effects such as cratering, and that vaporization requires magnitudes more energy than fragmentation --You are most certainly correct. However, the shot need not vaporize much asteroid to fragment the rest... An analogy: ANH, docking bay 94-Han blasts a wall, made of some concrete like substance and large chunks are blown clear. The working theory? The bolt bores into the surface, vaporizing as it goes, until at a certain depth the expanding gasses from the bolt's passing are too confined to escape through the entrance hole, and instead act like a blasting charge.

I see no reason this is any different.
1) Laser blast hits the surface of the asteroid
2) The intense, focused heat vaporizes an entrance hole leading into the asteroid along the bolt's flight path
3) As the hole deepens less gas can readily escape, and the pressure on the surrounding walls increases
4) At some point the gas is effectively trapped, enter the buried explosive charge senario, and the 'roid is fragmented.
The amount vaporized? Considerably less than the material contained in the asteroid proper. So while the energy cost to vaporize that material is relatively high, it does not effect the total by epic proportions, as the cost to fragment the rest of it is relatively low.

[Connor MacLeod]

I'm still waiting for a rebuttal on my point about the observed differences in convergence/divergence of the phaser pulses on the Defiant in the Lakota incident vs others (that can all be witnessed on Wayne's clip, as I mention several times.) refuting that they are strictly "fixed axis" weapons.

[Ender]

I see no reason this is any different.
1) Laser blast hits the surface of the asteroid
2) The intense, focused heat vaporizes an entrance hole leading into the asteroid along the bolt's flight path
3) As the hole deepens less gas can readily escape, and the pressure on the surrounding walls increases
4) At some point the gas is effectively trapped, enter the buried explosive charge senario, and the 'roid is fragmented.
The amount vaporized? Considerably less than the material contained in the asteroid proper. So while the energy cost to vaporize that material is relatively high, it does not effect the total by epic proportions, as the cost to fragment the rest of it is relatively low.

Not quite. Your scenario would have it break apart, yes. But that's not what happened, the thing blew apart with the pieces moving at a fairly good speed. Meaning that in order for sufficient momentum to have been imparted, large amounts must have been vaporized and be being removed in the opposite direction from the pieces.

[Alyeska]

I'm still waiting for a rebuttal on my point about the observed differences in convergence/divergence of the phaser pulses on the Defiant in the Lakota incident vs others (that can all be witnessed on Wayne's clip, as I mention several times.) refuting that they are strictly "fixed axis" weapons.

Convergence? I've never seen such examples and if it was capable when the Defiant made its roll that capability would have been very useful. At most this indicates the PPCs can be used against smaller targets so the Defiant can hit them at range with 4 guns rather then 2. And ultimately this is still irrelevent because it doesn't have anything to do with beam phasers.

[Connor MacLeod]

I'm still waiting for a rebuttal on my point about the observed differences in convergence/divergence of the phaser pulses on the Defiant in the Lakota incident vs others (that can all be witnessed on Wayne's clip, as I mention several times.) refuting that they are strictly "fixed axis" weapons.

Convergence? I've never seen such examples and if it was capable when the Defiant made its roll that capability would have been very useful. At most this indicates the PPCs can be used against smaller targets so the Defiant can hit them at range with 4 guns rather then 2. And ultimately this is still irrelevent because it doesn't have anything to do with beam phasers.

Watch the Trekmiss clip. We see plenty of examples of the defiant's bolts firing and converging on each other in the distance (they angle visibly.) This is quite different from what we see in the Lakota example (where they do not converge.)

Besides which, has it occured to you that your hinging your argument on the "beam" phasers alone is in fact the red herring? Unless you can prove the two use completely different targeting systems that do not have to yield the same accuracy? (you insisted it was because one was fixed axis but the other isn't) Occam's Razor *does* apply, and your claim makes an extraordinary claim.

[Chris OFarrell]

After reviewing the said scenes it does appear the Defiants PPC's have a VERY limited ability to fire off their physical axis, no more then ten or twenty degrees from nose from the (admittedly rough) esitamtes I've made. Not exactly an amazingly useful ability. And you have to wonder why this convergence ability is very rarely used.

But I don't see what all the SCREAMING is about. The Defiants Pulse Phasers were designed to beat the shit out of Borg Cubes, not X-Wings. They were designed to hit something that has a face that’s measured in kilometres, not meters. Tight accuracy was not a design specification. Any idiot can see the pulse phaser and the beam phaser are totally different animals. Saying that there is no reason a pulse phaser shouldn't have the same accuracy as a beam phaser is like saying a sniper rifle and machine gun should both have amazing accuracy. They're both guns aren’t they?

And can someone tell me WHY the bloody Defiants accuracy is relevant to a debate about the Delta Flyer and an X-Wing?

The facts about beam phaser accuracy from Federation Ships speak for themselves. And I don't need to go into it.

[The Dude]

Anywho, Obi Wan comes from the left, and banks nearly into the camera while Slave-I follows a few dozen meters away. Obi Wan passes very close to a largish asteroid on the right hand side of the screen, and a blast from Slave one clips a protuding bump on the top of the asteroid.

Well, there's the problem. The asteroid I am talking about was a direct hit on an asteroid in the upper-left hand corner.

I see no reason this is any different.
1) Laser blast hits the surface of the asteroid
2) The intense, focused heat vaporizes an entrance hole leading into the asteroid along the bolt's flight path
3) As the hole deepens less gas can readily escape, and the pressure on the surrounding walls increases
4) At some point the gas is effectively trapped, enter the buried explosive charge senario, and the 'roid is fragmented.
The amount vaporized? Considerably less than the material contained in the asteroid proper. So while the energy cost to vaporize that material is relatively high, it does not effect the total by epic proportions, as the cost to fragment the rest of it is relatively low.

Your 4 points above is correct, but to suggest that the energy required to vapourize the material needed to produce the fragmentation is on the same order as the fragmentation energy itself is a non sequitur.

[The Silence and I]

Well that clears up some of it doesn't it

I'll give you the non-sequitor, no problem, I already said I erred in not including the difference vaporization makes.

Lacking knowledge on the other 'roid I am going to change my claim for now: All I want to prove now is the blast that hit the asteroid I was refering to (and I'll have to check out the other one, I don't recall it ) imparted less than kt level energies to it. I'm not kidding when I say the bump was about 3 meters wide, and less than that in height. If it were a sphere 3 meters in diameter (generous, but not overly so) it would have a volume just over 14 meters^3. Even solid iron requires only about 850 GJ to vaporize that, and it is easy to see that by far most of it was not vaporized, but fragmented, and sluggishly at that (maybie a few meters/sec--I'll check that now and get back to you )

[Alyeska]

I still say that if a Federation fire-control system can miss a big, slow-moving starship at close range, no matter how infrequently, it can also miss an X-wing juking around at attack speed.

Can you actualy give me an example of this in regards to beam phasers.

Hmm... Every time they've ever missed. I mean, come on, when do they ever fight anything smaller than a Bird of Prey? An X-wing is not going to make a stationary target of itself, and it is much more maneuverable than anything Trek has ever shown.

Unless you're asking for an example of beam phasers firing at and missing an X-wing. No, of course I can't give you that.

You should try looking into the topic more. On the issue of Starfleet Beam phasers they have a 90% accuracy rating. Poe has found a handful of examples (which have been factored in) and there are several others not listed. The majority of the examples have to do with cloaked or stealthed ships. There is only a couple that have to do with missing a standard ship and these examples have the exception, not the norm. We have several instances of Starfleet ships hitting precise targets at rapid fire and also small targets with beam phasers.

[Alyeska]

Re: Convergence and the Defiant PPCs.

After reviewing Poe's Trek Miss video I've spotted the example of convergence and even off axis aiming. I also spotted another example on a video clip that Wayne didn't put in the video. Every single one of these instances comes from "What You Leave Behind". It seems that the PPCs can both converge on target to concentrate power and the PPCs can fire to a degree off axis while the Defiant is manuevering. Quite useful.

However.

It should be noted that all these examples come from the final episode of Deep Space Nine. The Defiant has never demonstrated this ability before in several circumstances where it would have been useful. Now, there is a very simple reason behind this. "What You Leave Behind" does not feature the Defiant, not exactly. This is the Defiant class ship formerly named the Sau Paulo. It would seem after the original Defiant was built Starfleet put some upgrades into the design.

This would render all clips of the original Defiant ultimately irrelevent on the issue of accuracy. Furthermore it should be noted that PPCs and Beam Phasers are two different weapon systems. They do not opperate under the same principles and the omni directional nature of phaser arrays allows for better accuracy. Where the PPCs have to be aimed by the emission points, it seems beam phasers can automaticaly sent in the direction desired.

Irregardless, good eye Connor. I've watched these particular clips for years and I never saw what you did.

[The Dude]

Lacking knowledge on the other 'roid I am going to change my claim for now: All I want to prove now is the blast that hit the asteroid I was refering to (and I'll have to check out the other one, I don't recall it ) imparted less than kt level energies to it.

Well, your math is certainly correct, but I'm not sure exactly which asteroid you are referring to (he clips a few over the course of the chase). Perhaps once you get your hands on the tape/DVD, you can indicate the time of the incident?

[The Dude]

Actually, I looked again and I think I know which one you are talking about - a chunk about as wide as the Aethersprite is blasted off the top of an asteroid at 1:08:29+4.

[Connor MacLeod]

You spotted another asteroid? I remember Brian Young telling me some time in the past he'd noted other asteroids in AOTC Getting vaporized, but I could never spot them. I guess I'll have to look again (My original calcs were on a different asteroid.)

[The Dude]

You spotted another asteroid? I remember Brian Young telling me some time in the past he'd noted other asteroids in AOTC Getting vaporized, but I could never spot them. I guess I'll have to look again (My original calcs were on a different asteroid.)

There are definitely two: upper left at 1:08:26 and centre-right at 1:08:29. I can't see any others.

Just another weird observation from that scene: the second seismic charge damages the huge asteroid on the left almost a full second (23 frames) before the planar wave hits, and cracks it completely in two at least six frames before.

[The Silence and I]

I checked, and the scene I am refering to is at time 1:08:28,

Actually, I looked again and I think I know which one you are talking about - a chunk about as wide as the Aethersprite is blasted off the top of an asteroid at 1:08:29+4.

That's the one. It is nice and easy to scale because the Aethersprite pulls up along side it about the same distance from the camera as the 'roid. (You can tell because Jango's fire comes from behind the 'roid, meaning it is in the foreground...or Jango wasn't even close to the fighter at that time-I'll take the former ) I also checked out the other clear example, and it seems harder to get a scale for it , but I don't have a screen cap of it. Personally it looked like a lot of melting was involved, as the debris largely stayed clumped together, instead of rapidly expanding. It would help greatly if I could tell if it is in the fore ground of the back ground. Grr. By the by, I eyeballed the debris expansion for the 'roid at 1:08:28, and found it expands at ~7-8 meters/sec, with a few chunks moving at around 17 meters/sec. This is off my TV screen, so take as generalities only, and it looks like this 'roid was hit more than once...The fastest debris take of right away, while a bolt is busy flashing behind the 'roid, then a new bolt appears and seems to hit the back of the bump. Then a much larger part of the bump is visibly affected and the second set of debris goes off uniformly at the slower speed.

[Connor MacLeod]

However.

It should be noted that all these examples come from the final episode of Deep Space Nine. The Defiant has never demonstrated this ability before in several circumstances where it would have been useful. Now, there is a very simple reason behind this. "What You Leave Behind" does not feature the Defiant, not exactly. This is the Defiant class ship formerly named the Sau Paulo. It would seem after the original Defiant was built Starfleet put some upgrades into the design.

Was not the episode "Paradise Lost", where the Lakota fought the Defiant, before its destruction? I believe it was, and we have *seen* examples of convergence from the earliest episodes that featured the ship. It would still apply then. Futhermore, it would be odd to assume that the guns would not be able to adjust their point of convergence according to differances in target range.

This would render all clips of the original Defiant ultimately irrelevent on the issue of accuracy. Furthermore it should be noted that PPCs and Beam Phasers are two different weapon systems.

The only difference is that one fires in a sustained beam and the other fires in pulses. How does this make for a different targeting system, exactly and by what proof?

Besides, even if the ORIGINAL defiant examples are invalid, there are still the other ones, which are perfectly applicable.

They do not opperate under the same principles and the omni directional nature of phaser arrays allows for better accuracy. Where the PPCs have to be aimed by the emission points, it seems beam phasers can automaticaly sent in the direction desired.

Er, what? That makes no sense whatsoever.

[Lord of the Farce]

They do not opperate under the same principles and the omni directional nature of phaser arrays allows for better accuracy. Where the PPCs have to be aimed by the emission points, it seems beam phasers can automaticaly sent in the direction desired.

Er, what? That makes no sense whatsoever.

I think he is saying that where phaser arrays can instantly fire in any direction within their firing arcs (presumably, once they have target lock), while PPCs on the other hand have to physically point its barrels at the target and thus has less accuracy.

[Alyeska]

Was not the episode "Paradise Lost", where the Lakota fought the Defiant, before its destruction? I believe it was, and we have *seen* examples of convergence from the earliest episodes that featured the ship. It would still apply then. Futhermore, it would be odd to assume that the guns would not be able to adjust their point of convergence according to differances in target range.

As I already stated we have evidence that the newer Defiants have upgrades over the experimental mdoel. I just checked Paradise Lost and there is no convergence in that episode.

The only difference is that one fires in a sustained beam and the other fires in pulses. How does this make for a different targeting system, exactly and by what proof?

Besides, even if the ORIGINAL defiant examples are invalid, there are still the other ones, which are perfectly applicable.

Huh? Your talking about Convergence here. The only known examples come from WYLB. So far the bulk of the PPC examples come from the original Defiant and since it doesn't have Convergence, you can't talk about its missing.

Er, what? That makes no sense whatsoever.

Beam phasers are omni directional while it seems PPCs are turreted.

[Lord Poe]

Huh? Your talking about Convergence here. The only known examples come from WYLB. So far the bulk of the PPC examples come from the original Defiant and since it doesn't have Convergence, you can't talk about its missing.

Then I guess you haven't seen "The Die Is Cast", then? You can see Convergence there. Its in the Trekmiss video, if you'd like to review.