Mike is Prescient

[Ryoga]

M-16 out, M-4 in

Remember the section on personal weapons, where he noted that carbines and SMGs are probably going to be replacing assault rifles in future warfare? Let's put out a book! Then 200 years from now conspiracy-nuts will be discussing SDNet instead of Nostradamus.

[phongn]

This process has been going on for some time. Mike is hardly prescient

[MKSheppard]

Funny, I heard that they stopped replacing the M-16 with the M-4 in a lot of
cases, because the M-4 did jack squat in the combat we faced in Afghanistan
in 2001, and now with Operation Iraqi Freedom in 2003. The longer
barrelled M-16s had more range accuracy and knockdown power than the
M-4s.

If you really want a carbine, get this instead:



811 mm long, 267mm barrel, vs the M-4s 838 mm with stock extended.

You just can't beat 700 RPM of .45 ACP manstopper!

[Vympel]

That's a submachine gun.

[MKSheppard]

That's a submachine gun.

You have something against the almighty Thompson? It's more
realistic than a M-4 for the kind of combat we're facing. Course, if
I was really insane, I'd have said:



Course, we care about civilian casualties, so the ALMIGHTY PPSH-41 is
out.

[Sea Skimmer]

Remember the section on personal weapons, where he noted that carbines and SMGs are probably going to be replacing assault rifles in future warfare?

Hears the problem with your rambling, the US Army began replacing the M16's with M4's the better part of a decade before Stardestroyer.net existed.

[Darth Wong]

I thought it was common knowledge that things were headed in that direction.

[The Kernel]

I think there's still some debate that carbines will totally replace rifles. Surely the majority of fielded weapons will be carbines simply because combat isn't occurring at the kind of ranges that makes a rifle advantages over the carbine, but there has still been some great innovation in rifle design lately that make them more practical for close in fighting.

Take a look at the Russian AN 94, only a bit smaller than the M16A2 at 37 inches, but still classified as a rifle and the Russian Spetsnaz swears by it as the best weapon ever made and has proven itself successful in field tests at < 100 meters.

The article mentions that the M4 is simply a stopgap measure until the OICW goes into massed production. Anyone care to guess what to classify this weapon as? I mean, with its attachments I guess it is a rifle but the .223 portion of the gun seems to be a carbine.

[MKSheppard]

The article mentions that the M4 is simply a stopgap measure until the OICW goes into massed production.

AHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHA



The XM8 (M8 after its official adoption) should become a standard next generation US forces assault rifle. It will fire all standard 5.56mm NATO ammunition, and, to further decrease the load on the future infantrymen, a new type of 5.56mm ammunition is now being developed. This new ammunition will have composite cases, with brass bases and polymer walls, which will reduce weight of the complete ammunition, while maintaining compatibility with all 5.56mm NATO weapons. Along with 20% weight reduction in the XM8 (compared to the current issue M4A1 carbine), this will be a welcome move for any infantryman, already overloaded by protective, communications and other battle equipment.

[MKSheppard]

I thought it was common knowledge that things were headed in that direction.

Well, they're not anymore, after two back to back wars where carbines got
ragged upon in combat roles, by anyone other than supply clerks who
needed to jam them into their vehicles

[MKSheppard]

Course, to the US Army bureaucracy, the M249 SAW is an effective
weapon, even if the troops have to keep the damned thing held
together on the battlefield with fucking PLASTIC TIES!

[Sea Skimmer]

Course, to the US Army bureaucracy, the M249 SAW is an effective
weapon, even if the troops have to keep the damned thing held
together on the battlefield with fucking PLASTIC TIES!

That's just because most of the initial batch of guns are worn out, that happens with guns, espically 5.56mm weapons which tend to last only about 10-15 years in service.

[Sea Skimmer]

I thought it was common knowledge that things were headed in that direction.

It is, but it is also likely changing. The replacement for the M16 and M4 is the XM-8, which can accept any barrel length between 20 and 14.5 inches, the length of the M16 and M4 barrels respectively. Most likely troops will be issued primarily with the 20-inch barrel despite the fact that a great many units have converted over to short barreled M4's. Caliber may also jump up from 5.56mm to 6.8 though that's a lot less likely.

This is all because Afghanistan has found troops dropping even full sized M16's for 7.62x51mm M14's, while all the 7.62mm sniper units are clamoring for 12.7mm weapons. Iraq had some similar complaints, though mostly only about the short range of the M4. But since mountain fighting has proven relatively rare in the past 50 years its more likely that the lessons of Iraq will be listen to, favoring full length 5.56mm barrels, while those of Afghanistan which would suggest 7.62x51 for new rifles will receive a "so what we can always pass out a few M14's if we must" answer.

[MKSheppard]

This is all because Afghanistan has found troops dropping even full sized M16's for 7.62x51mm M14's

The answer is simple! We put forth a proposal for new build M-14s utilizing
the latest materials technology!

[Sea Skimmer]

The answer is simple! We put forth a proposal for new build M-14s utilizing
the latest materials technology!

We can just refurbish existing M14's. We could however produce all new Lebel 1886's as I've suggested in the M16/AK47 thread however. The three round magazine encourages accuracy, while the sights and bullet are good out to 2 kilometers. Those can hold the line while we genetically engineer bigger soldiers to use even more powerful rifles.

[Vympel]

The whole eternal squabble is one huge false dilemma anyway. Afghanistan= M4s too short! We need 7.62x51mm long range M14s! Iraq= M16s too large, we need short 5.56x45mm M4A1s!

1. Long range? Give your troops full-size assault rifles. But not ridiculously long- combat beyond 300-500m hardly ever happens in most environments. Squad designated marksman with accurate battle rifles (i.e. M21 or SVD) can extend the range further *if required*. There were sometimes as many as 6 SVDs per squad among Soviet units in Afghanistan.

2. Close-medium range (i.e. urban and second-line support troops). Hand out 'shorty' assault rifles/ carbines, like the M4A1, G-36K or AK-105 (the AKS-74U is a submachine gun).

In short, keep a balanced, plentiful armory of a variety of arms for a variety of tasks. The XM8 carbine/rifle/LMG goes some way towards this, but the majority of the variants will be M4A1 size, the long-barrel will be relatively rare, and they'll all be in 5.56x45mm.

[Sea Skimmer]

The whole eternal squabble is one huge false dilemma anyway. Afghanistan= M4s too short! We need 7.62x51mm long range M14s! Iraq= M16s too large, we need short 5.56x45mm M4A1s!

Clearly what we need is an 15.5x115mm cartridge fired from a pistol

1. Long range? Give your troops full-size assault rifles. But not ridiculously long- combat beyond 300-500m hardly ever happens in most environments. Squad designated marksman with accurate battle rifles (i.e. M21 or SVD) can extend the range further *if required*. There were sometimes as many as 6 SVDs per squad among Soviet units in Afghanistan.

That's not surprising, its seems some units also replaced there RPK-74's for the older RPK's. For long-range work machine guns really are better, the XM312 would be ideal for this sort of work.

2. Close-medium range (i.e. urban and second-line support troops). Hand out 'shorty' assault rifles/ carbines, like the M4A1, G-36K or AK-105 (the AKS-74U is a submachine gun).

Well the argument against swapping around weapons as needed, espically for the US, which expects to react quickly, is that its harder and more expensive to keep troops well trained on all of them. Now of course once you reach the theater and if you have some time, it becomes much easier, since suddenly no ones stingy with ammunition and range space becomes very plentiful.

In short, keep a balanced, plentiful armory of a variety of arms for a variety of tasks. The XM8 carbine/rifle/LMG goes some way towards this, but the majority of the variants will be M4A1 size, the long-barrel will be relatively rare, and they'll all be in 5.56x45mm.

If my lobbying is successful the XM-8 will soon be declared a sidearm while all soldiers are issued with an 8x54mm Force XIX Personal Termination Munition Delivery System

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

Troops wouldn't have to fire out of vehicles in the first place if the US Ary had followed my advice and mounted multiple remote controlled 12.7mm machines guns on every vehicle, plus a few gatling guns on larger ones.

[The Kernel]

Shep, can I have a link to some info on this gun? It looks freakin insane.

[Einhander Sn0m4n]

I still maintain the good (not-so) old .458 SOCOM would work best if you don't mind heavyish recoil. .45 caliber bullets pushed hella faster than .45 ACP can go in an easy-open AR15 case.

And yes, it uses the exact same magazine as the .223 Remington/5.56 NATO AR15.

[Sea Skimmer]

Shep, can I have a link to some info on this gun? It looks freakin insane.

http://world.guns.ru/assault/as61-e.htm
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... 8-oicw.htm

I still maintain the good (not-so) old .458 SOCOM would work best if you don't mind heavyish recoil. .45 caliber bullets pushed hella faster than .45 ACP can go in an easy-open AR15 case.

And yes, it uses the exact same magazine as the .223 Remington/5.56 NATO AR15.

Puny, the USCG is using a M16 rechambered for a .50cal round.

[Howedar]

Of course, it is the .50AE, not the GODLY .50BMG.

[Nathan F]

I still maintain the good (not-so) old .458 SOCOM would work best if you don't mind heavyish recoil. .45 caliber bullets pushed hella faster than .45 ACP can go in an easy-open AR15 case.

And yes, it uses the exact same magazine as the .223 Remington/5.56 NATO AR15.

Puny, the USCG is using a M16 rechambered for a .50cal round.

Speaking of which, guess what I saw at a gun show today for 900 buckaroos?