taiwan mentions independence, china commences primary igniti

arctic_series · Post by **arctic_series** » 2003-11-22 05:10am

http://edition.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/asiap ... index.html

"HONG KONG, China (CNN) -- For the first time since 2000, Beijing has threatened to use force against Taiwan should the island's pro-independence movement continue to escalate. "

interesting.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-11-22 05:39am

Wow, for the first time in three years. China is just saber rattling. There's nothing they can realistically do which won't lead to massive PRC losses both militarily and economically. They benefit too much from trade with Taiwan anyway.

Post by **Gandalf** » 2003-11-22 08:21am

This will probably just dissipate quickly, like that spy plane stuff.

Post by **Vympel** » 2003-11-22 08:34am

I think Taiwan should just go ahead and declare independence, and force China to admit they can't really do shit against them at all.

Post by **Gandalf** » 2003-11-22 08:41am

Vympel wrote:I think Taiwan should just go ahead and declare independence, and force China to admit they can't really do shit against them at all.

That'd actually be kind of cool.

Sarevok · Post by **Sarevok** » 2003-11-22 09:45am

Vympel wrote:I think Taiwan should just go ahead and declare independence, and force China to admit they can't really do shit against them at all.

The problem is how china responds is a big unknown. It may not respond or it may nuke Taiwan. The Taiwanese leadership can not act on hunches alone.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-11-22 09:57am

Vympel wrote:I think Taiwan should just go ahead and declare independence, and force China to admit they can't really do shit against them at all.

Except that also means giving up Taiwan's claim to being the true goverment of the mainland, which a large segment of the government doesn't want to do.

Post by **Vympel** » 2003-11-22 10:02am

Sea Skimmer wrote:Except that also means giving up Taiwan's claim to being the true goverment of the mainland, which a large segment of the government doesn't want to do.

That's even more retarded than China's claim on Taiwan.

arctic_series · Post by **arctic_series** » 2003-11-22 10:02am

the real question is, is chen doing it for votes or is he actually serious ?

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2003-11-22 11:46am

Of course, didn't we promise the Chinese that they would all be reunited 'eventually'? Gotta love those ambigous clauses.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-11-22 02:28pm

Vympel wrote:I think Taiwan should just go ahead and declare independence, and force China to admit they can't really do shit against them at all.

Except for the fact that China might feel compelled to do something stupid anyway. They can't take Taiwan by force (especially if the US intervenes) but they can do a lot of damage trying.

Vympel wrote:
Sea Skimmer wrote:Except that also means giving up Taiwan's claim to being the true goverment of the mainland, which a large segment of the government doesn't want to do.
That's even more retarded than China's claim on Taiwan.

Neither side is being terribly logical. Of course the fact that the international community treated Taiwan as the legitimate government of all China up until 1976 probably didn't talk sense into either side.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-11-22 03:08pm

Vympel wrote: That's even more retarded than China's claim on Taiwan.

No, retarded is the PRC's claim to Singapore, along with the rest of the Malaysian peninsula, plus everything else between it and China.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-11-22 03:11pm

Sea Skimmer wrote:
Vympel wrote: That's even more retarded than China's claim on Taiwan.
No, retarded is the PRC's claim to Singapore, along with the rest of the Malaysian peninsula, plus everything else between it and China.

What the fuck? How? Why?

Col. Crackpot · Post by **Col. Crackpot** » 2003-11-22 03:41pm

Illuminatus Primus wrote:
Sea Skimmer wrote:
Vympel wrote: That's even more retarded than China's claim on Taiwan.
No, retarded is the PRC's claim to Singapore, along with the rest of the Malaysian peninsula, plus everything else between it and China.
What the fuck? How? Why?

because China is big and strong and likes to wave it's dick around even more than the US.

Dark Hellion · Post by **Dark Hellion** » 2003-11-22 04:16pm

Thats just because they don't have a giant phallic monument in there capital. Of course they have to do some dick waving.

Exonerate · Post by **Exonerate** » 2003-11-22 07:45pm

PRC has always been sabre-rattling. This is nothing new...

When I was in Taiwan, the independence movement didn't seem to be that strong, but that was 7 years ago...

In the case that PRC does invade or something as a response to Taiwan declaring indepedence, I don't think the US would send in their military to help out. But PRC isn't rash enough to just nuke Taiwan either...

RedImperator · Post by **RedImperator** » 2003-11-22 10:08pm

Illuminatus Primus wrote:
Sea Skimmer wrote:
Vympel wrote: That's even more retarded than China's claim on Taiwan.
No, retarded is the PRC's claim to Singapore, along with the rest of the Malaysian peninsula, plus everything else between it and China.
What the fuck? How? Why?

China has a long memory. Before the European devils stuck their noses into Asian business, everyone between Siberia and the Strait of Malacca knew China was the boss. This is probably what the claim is based on. In the Chinese view, the last two centuries have been an unfortunate fluke, not a fundamental shift in China's position in Asia and the world.

Stuart Mackey · Post by **Stuart Mackey** » 2003-11-23 02:33am

RedImperator wrote:
Illuminatus Primus wrote:
Sea Skimmer wrote: No, retarded is the PRC's claim to Singapore, along with the rest of the Malaysian peninsula, plus everything else between it and China.
What the fuck? How? Why?
China has a long memory. Before the European devils stuck their noses into Asian business, everyone between Siberia and the Strait of Malacca knew China was the boss. This is probably what the claim is based on. In the Chinese view, the last two centuries have been an unfortunate fluke, not a fundamental shift in China's position in Asia and the world.

China wont move south..that might/will just trigger a war they could not win against the west..or at lest the English speaking part of the west.

Axis Kast · Post by **Axis Kast** » 2003-11-23 03:07am

As an aside, the Chinese also regard Vietnam (Annam) and Korea (Choson) as territories equitable in status to Taiwan.

The People’s Republic will, in general, pursue the American model of global ascendancy: protectionism in the early stages of industrial development, systematic export of capital produced in this vast (and fully protected) consumer enclave to points across the Asian rim, and later, naval visits and military guarantees or training missions to solidify the
“national interests” initiated by earlier financial ties. By this time (2200 at the latest), they will also possess a blue-water navy capable of at least policing their interests among neighboring states.

It will be interesting also to follow the nearly certain clash between Russia and China over CIS futures in Central Asia, a region both regard as their own particular domain. At this point in time, Moscow still holds the upper hand both strategically and culturally, although the Chinese are set to dominate economically.

Oh, and by the way … does anybody find it possible that China would launch a tactical nuclear strike on an American carrier battle group which attempted to interpose itself between the mainland and Taiwan (or, more prudently, lingered behind Taiwan itself)?

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-11-23 03:39am

RedImperator wrote:
China has a long memory. Before the European devils stuck their noses into Asian business, everyone between Siberia and the Strait of Malacca knew China was the boss. This is probably what the claim is based on. In the Chinese view, the last two centuries have been an unfortunate fluke, not a fundamental shift in China's position in Asia and the world.

Well the thing is China never controlled southern Thailand, Burma or Vietnam let alone the Malaysian peninsula. All the other areas they came where indeed Chinese's up until the 19th century or later.

Axis Kast · Post by **Axis Kast** » 2003-11-23 05:14am

Interestingly enough, Chinese records claim tribute originated as distant as Syria. There are also substantial accounts of merchants having produced gifts on behalf of empires presumably their own making, confident the counter-tribute offered by the Heavenly Kingdom (which the Chinese considered baubles) would make them rich men at home.

lance · Post by **lance** » 2003-11-23 03:19pm

I am nearly positive that tribute doesnot equal control.

Axis Kast · Post by **Axis Kast** » 2003-11-23 04:15pm

First of all, I never said that it did.

Second of all, it implies inferriority on the part of that party offering the tribute. In the case of Syria, for example, merchants and ambassadors from that land were admitting the primacy - and legitimizing the influence - of China.

BoredShirtless · Post by **BoredShirtless** » 2003-11-23 04:26pm

Axis Kast wrote:Oh, and by the way … does anybody find it possible that China would launch a tactical nuclear strike on an American carrier battle group which attempted to interpose itself between the mainland and Taiwan (or, more prudently, lingered behind Taiwan itself)?

If it got to that point, then maybe. But the chance of the situation getting to that point is much slimmer then the nuke strike IMO.

Axis Kast · Post by **Axis Kast** » 2003-11-23 04:28pm

Until China builds up a credible blue-water force.