Terran Empire vs Galactic Empire

[Patrick Degan]

A planetary shield did not save Alderaan from destruction, and the Death Star does not have to make a close approach to its target. Any defence fleet, minefield, or network of battlestations in Earth orbit —or even out past Earth's Moon— will be obliterated along with the planet.

The empire doesn't have any death stars they were blow up.

And Star Trek has no Genesis devices. Again, what's your fucking point?

[Illuminatus Primus]

A planetary shield did not save Alderaan from destruction, and the Death Star does not have to make a close approach to its target. Any defence fleet, minefield, or network of battlestations in Earth orbit —or even out past Earth's Moon— will be obliterated along with the planet.

The empire doesn't have any death stars they were blow up.

You idiot.

You can't arbitrarily mark the Empire's strength where you want to if you're giving the TE all the Genesis Devices it wants--especially when the stores are depleted as of the war with S8742.

[Crazedwraith]

A planetary shield did not save Alderaan from destruction, and the Death Star does not have to make a close approach to its target. Any defence fleet, minefield, or network of battlestations in Earth orbit —or even out past Earth's Moon— will be obliterated along with the planet.

The empire doesn't have any death stars they were blow up.

You idiot.

You can't arbitrarily mark the Empire's strength where you want to if you're giving the TE all the Genesis Devices it wants--especially when the stores are depleted as of the war with S8742.

I never said the TE had all the genesis devices they want, But thye have some and it seems resaonble Emperor Jack would let S31 re-formatt the capital of such a caple opentant don't you?

[Illuminatus Primus]

And the Empire has superlasers and Death Stars at certain periods.

Probability demands that Wars will find the wormhole first, fortify it, thus preventing such a strike, and then the torrent of Wars might would surge into the Milky Way and crush the TE.

[Chris OFarrell]

Ah, I get it —your Terran Empire is allowed to have Genesis torpedoes, which in the Trek continuity are a lost technology, but the Empire doesn't get CGT sensors as standard warship equipment. How convenient.

One. Its no my Terran Empire.
Two. Genesis Torpedoes are not lost tech in the TE. Deal with it.
Three. CGT's never were Standard warship equipment in the SW universe, did you ENTIRELY miss that point? THEY NEVER WERE!

So who says the CGTs would be deployed so close to Coruscant that the planetary mass would swamp the system?

Because you NEED to? Duh? Ship comes out of hyperspace in orbit of Courscant. Ship go's down to Courscant. Where exactly were you going to PLACE the CGT array to protect Courscant?

And I suppose the carrier for a Genesis torpedo won't have to cross spaces controlled by the Empire in their own galaxy to deliver the weapon?

Range of a CGT, thousands of Kilometers (The Last Command). Size of space controled by the Empire, God knows how many millions of cubic lightyears. Number of CGT's controled by the Empire? Very very few to the point only 3 were left by Thrawns time.

Yeah, I can see the odds of a CGT being in place, even IF the Defiant decides for whatever reason to move around in realspace at sublight instead of at slipstream, to be good For Gods sake THINK!

See, there's this thing called "traffic control".

Which is no the problem. The problem is the shear numbers of ships and the CGT's ability to even pick their individual signatures from Courscants swamping mass of many trillions of times greater signifigance to the CGT.

There's also sensor deployment at various distances from the system, and a state of defensive alert in force due to a condition of war being active.

Oh great. So now you've put the CGT outside the system when it has a range of thousands of kilometers, a defensive force that even at the hight of the Rebel - Imperial war were incompetnet enough to allow ships through which had other ships hiding right behind them and using them as a shield! Even without a cloak! There are thousands of ships moving in out and around Courscant 24/7. At the hight of a civil war in their own Galaxy when infiltration was the way the enemy worked, they couldn't stop ships from sneaking in through a trick that was well known to everyone.

And as for your doubts about a CGT sensor not being able to spot your close tucked-in Defiant, it would not be a tremendous stretch for an Imperial to figure out that a ship having a larger mass-distortion signature than it's supposed to have signals "something wrong".

Oh so your going to be blasting every single overloaded ship now? Good idea there. Nor do I think a CGT was ever said to be that accurate. It can detect the mass of a target but with quite a moderate margin of error.

Objects in subspace still interact with realspace, and in "Balance Of Terror", it was no challenge to track a cloaked ship with passive sensing. Contrary to what many people believe, subspace doesn't erase mass.

You bring up a one hundred year old prototype cloak as proof that cloaks the TE uses can be tracked by passive sensors? When even in the TNG timeline, not the TE timeline, they had eliminated this flaw long before the current time period? Hell back in ST6 they had eliminated this flaw. What kind of stupid reasoning is this? How about I claim a B1A's stealth technology proves an F117's stealth technology is easily countered and tracked with simple radar systems?

Subspace doesn't erase mass no. It does MOVE it out of realspace though where the CGT is looking.

CGT sensors are based on the principle of mass detection and gravitic distortion —neither of which is particularly mysterious or a massive technical challenge.

Funny that how the Empire has gramemetic sensors which are said to be quite different to CGT technology...

Unless you can point out how gravity can't be detected, you're going to have to come up with a better argument than that one.

WHAT argument? That a TE Starship will have a reduced mass signature? This is as established Trek technology thats just as integral in the TE as the normal ST timeline. Unless your going to come up with an argument as to why (and make it a good one) a CGT will be able to detect mass that doesn't exist where its looking, I'll accept your concession.

[Patrick Degan]

Ah, I get it —your Terran Empire is allowed to have Genesis torpedoes, which in the Trek continuity are a lost technology, but the Empire doesn't get CGT sensors as standard warship equipment. How convenient.

One. Its no my Terran Empire.
Two. Genesis Torpedoes are not lost tech in the TE. Deal with it.
Three. CGT's never were Standard warship equipment in the SW universe, did you ENTIRELY miss that point? THEY NEVER WERE!

One: Learn to recognise a figure of speech.

Two: The TE's posession of Genesis is not the bone of contention.

Three: You don't get to pick and choose which tech the GE has available to it in a vs. debate. CGT sensors are part of the military hardware of the Imperial forces, and as the existence of cloaking technology is a given according to TESB, the existence of cloaking detection technology is a logical consequence. Furthermore, after protesting for the existence of an arsenal of devices which in the main ST universe was a failure, you forfeit the right to protest against the Galactic Empire posessing CGT sensors.

Deal with that.

So who says the CGTs would be deployed so close to Coruscant that the planetary mass would swamp the system?

Because you NEED to? Duh? Ship comes out of hyperspace in orbit of Courscant. Ship go's down to Courscant. Where exactly were you going to PLACE the CGT array to protect Courscant?

Ships do not exit hyperspace within orbital range, for a start, due to the dangers of a planet's mass-shadow and collision. Furthermore, we never see any Star Trek vessel dropping out of warp within close range of a planet; indeed, we see their vessels always making a normal space approach from distances of several hundred thousand kilometres at minimum. We also have ample evidence of the necessity for ST ships to periodically drop out of warp during their transits. This leaves more than several options for deployment of CGT-equipped vessels to cover the spaces around as well as within the Coruscant system.

And I suppose the carrier for a Genesis torpedo won't have to cross spaces controlled by the Empire in their own galaxy to deliver the weapon?

Range of a CGT, thousands of Kilometers (The Last Command). Size of space controled by the Empire, God knows how many millions of cubic lightyears. Number of CGT's controled by the Empire? Very very few to the point only 3 were left by Thrawns time.

Still trying to arbitrarily limit the GE for your convenience, I see.

Yeah, I can see the odds of a CGT being in place, even IF the Defiant decides for whatever reason to move around in realspace at sublight instead of at slipstream, to be good For Gods sake THINK!

I have —far more so than you, it seems. While Space may be Big, the number of practical course options to Coruscant are limited to a very small finite number, which consequently delimits the spaces the attack ship must traverse to reach the target. That also places a practical limit on how much space Imperial forces will actually have to search and cover.

See, there's this thing called "traffic control".

Which is no the problem. The problem is the sheer numbers of ships and the CGT's ability to even pick their individual signatures from Courscants swamping mass of many trillions of times greater signifigance to the CGT.

In our own time, with our own science, we are technologically capable of mapping gravitic anomalies on our own world despite its total mass. Picking out a ship against the mass-shadow of an entire planet is a matter of setting the readouts to pick out mass/gravity signatures which vary against the local background gravitational field.

There's also sensor deployment at various distances from the system, and a state of defensive alert in force due to a condition of war being active.

Oh great. So now you've put the CGT outside the system when it has a range of thousands of kilometers, a defensive force that even at the hight of the Rebel - Imperial war were incompetnet enough to allow ships through which had other ships hiding right behind them and using them as a shield! Even without a cloak! There are thousands of ships moving in out and around Courscant 24/7. At the height of a civil war in their own Galaxy when infiltration was the way the enemy worked, they couldn't stop ships from sneaking in through a trick that was well known to everyone.

Pathetic strawman argument and a total misunderstanding of the events of the movies. While CGT-equipped ships may be deployed outside the Coruscant system, I did not say that was the only zone where they would be deployed. And despite Han Solo's trick, the Millenium Falcon was picked up and tracked by Boba Fett as soon as he degrappled from the Avenger. Furthermore, the temporary success of an evasion tactic does not point to "incompetence" on the part of Capt. Needa or his officers.

And as for your doubts about a CGT sensor not being able to spot your close tucked-in Defiant, it would not be a tremendous stretch for an Imperial to figure out that a ship having a larger mass-distortion signature than it's supposed to have signals "something wrong".

Oh so your going to be blasting every single overloaded ship now? Good idea there.

Man of Straw.

Nor do I think a CGT was ever said to be that accurate. It can detect the mass of a target but with quite a moderate margin of error.

The function of a CGT sensor is to spot the presence of mass anomalies. This does not require precision to six decimal places.

Objects in subspace still interact with realspace, and in "Balance Of Terror", it was no challenge to track a cloaked ship with passive sensing. Contrary to what many people believe, subspace doesn't erase mass.

You bring up a one hundred year old prototype cloak as proof that cloaks the TE uses can be tracked by passive sensors? When even in the TNG timeline, not the TE timeline, they had eliminated this flaw long before the current time period? Hell back in ST6 they had eliminated this flaw. What kind of stupid reasoning is this? How about I claim a B1A's stealth technology proves an F117's stealth technology is easily countered and tracked with simple radar systems?

First, the Romulan cloak used in "Balance Of Terror" was not a prototype. Second, Data was alerted to the presence of a cloaked Romulan Warbird tracking the Enterprise to Beta Stromgren by passive sensors in "Tin Man". Third, the mass of a ship is not a cloaking "flaw" that can be eliminated no matter how good the technology gets, it is a fundamental property of the ship itself. Fourth, we have more than enough indications that the technology of the TNG era is not much more advanced than that of the TOS era. And fifth, since the B-1 bomber was never a stealth plane, I have no idea what argument you think you're making there.

Subspace doesn't erase mass no. It does MOVE it out of realspace though where the CGT is looking.

It doesn't matter whether the mass is in subspace; since said masses still interact with realspace. And you've just suggested a second detection method —tracking subspace distortions with subspace sensors, which has been part of the technology of the SW galaxy since the time of Xim the Despot.

CGT sensors are based on the principle of mass detection and gravitic distortion —neither of which is particularly mysterious or a massive technical challenge.

Funny that how the Empire has gravimemetic sensors which are said to be quite different to CGT technology...

Different in mechanics, perhaps, not in terms of the basic physical principle involved.

Unless you can point out how gravity can't be detected, you're going to have to come up with a better argument than that one.

WHAT argument? That a TE Starship will have a reduced mass signature? This is as established Trek technology thats just as integral in the TE as the normal ST timeline. Unless your going to come up with an argument as to why (and make it a good one) a CGT will be able to detect mass that doesn't exist where its looking, I'll accept your concession.

Asked and answered. And you can keep waiting for a non-existant concession for as long as you like.

[D.Turtle]

The only way the TE might hold the GE off is if they detect the wormhole first and have enough time to massively fortify it. It would also depend on how many ships fit through the wormhole at a time. Only if the TE has such a bottleneck could they hold off the GE (so it would be a stalemate).

Even if they manage to fortify the wormhole with their best defenses the TE still loses due to technological inferiority. A single star destroyer can easily take on multiple TE warships and win. Larger warships like the Executor class command ships could defeat an entire fleet. Combined with the Empires superior numbers this would mean they can destroy whatever fortifications the TE can build.

The TE is quite powerful. With massive fortification I mean something along the likes of placing the entire 2nd Fleet there, add huge minefields and lots of space stations.

IIRC, 2nd fleet has around 2000 Wraiths (upgrades). Each Wraith has 3 phaser lances (2 forward, 1 aft) which each do about 1TT damage. Additionally they have 4000 Excaliburs(which carry fighters, and only lighter weaponry so I'll leave them out).

That would be a forward volley of 4000 TT. Admittedly aiming isn't perfect, not all ships could probably shoot, the firepower would be divided to a point among several ships, etc, so it would be less per ship of the GE. Still quite a lot of fire power - able to damage GE ships.

Like I said: it would depend on the size of the wormhole, who finds the wormhole first, and how much time they have before the other side detects it.

I am NOT saying that the TE could defeat the GE. I am merely saying that under the right circumstances (TE finds wormhole first, has enough time to massively fortify it, and the wormhole isn't so big that huge fleets can fit through at a time) the TE could hold off the GE for a long time.

The other possible tactic/strategy could be to use Genesis Torpedoes as an anti-fleet weapon (which works - it was used in Reap The Whirlwind chapter 36 against 2nd Fleet).

[Howedar]

Furthermore, after protesting for the existence of an arsenal of devices which in the main ST universe was a failure

For God's sakes, we aren't talking about the main ST universe and never were. Genesis devices are successful and in production in this hypothetical TE defined in the OP. Don't like it? Go to another thread.

[Patrick Degan]

Furthermore, after protesting for the existence of an arsenal of devices which in the main ST universe was a failure

For God's sakes, we aren't talking about the main ST universe and never were. Genesis devices are successful and in production in this hypothetical TE defined in the OP. Don't like it? Go to another thread.

That is not the point. The TE advocates in this thread are trying to have things both ways: a technology which was a failure in the main ST continuity is a working weapon for the Terran Empire, but somehow the Galactic Empire cannot have either CGT sensors or Death Stars in this scenario. That is what can best be referred to as "fixing" the playing field —as well as rank hypocricy.

In case the point needs reminding:



From the SDNet "Battles" page

Of course, if we're playing this particular game, we have to remember that it's too easy to tilt the playing field. Therefore, we need some ground rules:

1. Equal intel: both sides have as much intel data as their enemies' natural foes would have. For example, a Federation starship would not be surprised by an Imperial hyperspace jump. Conversely, an Imperial ground commander would not be surprised by transporters. This means that Imperial forces will be using transport scramblers and sensor jammers whenever possible (and don't give me that nonsense about how they wouldn't be able to do it; we've seen countless natural phenomena that stop transporters), and Alpha Quadrant forces will try to snare Imperial ships with tractor beams if possible (given the range restrictions of Federation tractor beams), to keep them from jumping into hyperspace.
LI>

Neither side can use lost technology ie- no Suncrushers, Genesis devices, phasing cloaks, or ancient Sith superweapons).

2. Neither side can use the other side's technology. They may know about it, but they don't possess it. For example, the Federation wouldn't be able to use a planetary shield to defend Hoth, and the Empire wouldn't be able to use self-replicating mines to block the Bajoran wormhole.

3. Both sides' technology works. We'll have none of this inane stupidity of one side's technology working perfectly while the other side's technology becomes totally useless.

4. The "visiting team" has resources which are appropriate to the battle and their capabilities. For example, the Empire must fight the Siege of AR-558 with just one ground unit, but they can throw in as large a fleet as they can muster for "do or die" battles such as the Battle of Cardassia Prime. Conversely, the Federation can throw in as large a fleet as they can muster when replacing the Empire in the Battle of Yavin.

After receiving some complaints, I realized that I hadn't fully described the condition of the "visiting team":

1. The "visiting team" is in an idealized condition, ie- at the height of its strength, without having to worry about enemies in its own galaxy. In other words, the Empire has all the ships and weapons it built for the civil war, without having to worry about the Rebellion. The Federation has all the ships and weapons it built for the Borg and the Dominion, without having to worry about either of them. Of course, this tends to give an advantage to the visiting team.

2. The "visiting team" doesn't get to use any special characters with special powers. In other words, no shape-shifters, sith lords, or any other unique characters. The home team gets to keep whatever special characters it had in the original battle, thus counter-balancing the advantage granted with the previous rule.




And those are generally the rules which cover the vs. debates here.

Don't like it? Go to another website.

[Lord of the Farce]

Quote (link) courtesy of SirNitram:

Crystal Gravfield Traps (CGTs): These expensive sensors utitize a synthetic crystal grid to defect gravitic field fluctuations. High quality CGTs can detect and identify any fluctuation in the gravity field for hundreds ot thousands of kilometers around.

CGTs can be blocked by the presence of mass. For example, a CGT will strongly register a nearby planet's presence, but may miss a ship in orbit on the other side of the planet.

[HRogge]

I remember that Stravo said the Genesis Torp of the TE cannot be stopped by shields...

Appeal to Authority fallacy, and a weak one as well.

Bullshit... Stravo has CREATED the TE universe... so he is the highest authority about things not said directly in his story.

And naturally, there is just no chance of either the torpedo or its carrier ship being shot down...

The GE has no idea how to shoot down a ship with a real space FTL drive...

[Crazedwraith]

I remember that Stravo said the Genesis Torp of the TE cannot be stopped by shields...

Appeal to Authority fallacy, and a weak one as well.

Bullshit... Stravo has CREATED the TE universe... so he is the highest authority about things not said directly in his story.

You idiot. Stravo didn't create the TE Happytarget did.

[HRogge]

And according to the normal Trek continuity, there are no Genesis devices. What's your point?

Normal Trek continuity doesn't matter at all for the TE...

[HRogge]

Appeal to Authority fallacy, and a weak one as well.

Bullshit... Stravo has CREATED the TE universe... so he is the highest authority about things not said directly in his story.

You idiot. Stravo didn't create the TE Happytarget did.

ARG... sorry about posting such bullshit, I mixed up the two fanfictions...

( writing on a note 100 time: "I'm an idiot..." )

[D.Turtle]

Furthermore, after protesting for the existence of an arsenal of devices which in the main ST universe was a failure

For God's sakes, we aren't talking about the main ST universe and never were. Genesis devices are successful and in production in this hypothetical TE defined in the OP. Don't like it? Go to another thread.

That is not the point. The TE advocates in this thread are trying to have things both ways: a technology which was a failure in the main ST continuity is a working weapon for the Terran Empire, but somehow the Galactic Empire cannot have either CGT sensors or Death Stars in this scenario. That is what can best be referred to as "fixing" the playing field —as well as rank hypocricy.

The TE advocates (as you call them) in this thread are using a technology which is a widely used technology. One that was successfully used many, many times (against the Borg and other enemies).
The GE has only a few CGT sensors and only had 2 DS (both of which were destroyed shortly after or before completion).

This is NOT a case of using a technology that is rare in TE and at the same time taking out a technology that is rare in the GE.

This IS a case of using a technology(weapon) that has seen widespread use in the TE and taking out a technology which was apparently very rare (the other's pointed out that CGT sensors were only used/seen three times - if this is wrong then point it out and provide proof).

Remember - this is the TE not normal ST. Genesis torpedoes in sT are a lost tech. In the TE they were used excessively and are not a lost tech.

In normal ST Genesis torpedoes most probably do not work through shields. In the TE they work through shields (starship shields and IIRC also through planetary shields).

You can NOT argue with normal ST in an argument that is not even involving normal ST.

[Ender]

ST shields work under an entirly different set of principles from SW shields. So the fact that it can penetrate TE ships shields doesn't really show alot.

That said, i think a strike against Coruscant would fail because if it was an incoming danger, the Emperor would be alerted and gone, thus making it moot whether the strike worked or not as the primary objective would have failed.

[Kamakazie Sith]

ST shields work under an entirly different set of principles from SW shields. So the fact that it can penetrate TE ships shields doesn't really show alot.

That said, i think a strike against Coruscant would fail because if it was an incoming danger, the Emperor would be alerted and gone, thus making it moot whether the strike worked or not as the primary objective would have failed.

I wonder if the destruction of Coruscant would free up more resources than it would destroy?

[Howedar]

For God's sakes, we aren't talking about the main ST universe and never were. Genesis devices are successful and in production in this hypothetical TE defined in the OP. Don't like it? Go to another thread.

[/quote]Degan, quit trolling and get the fuck out.

The OP clearly defines what SW has (what we see in canon and the EU) and what the TE has (In HappyTarget's fanfic). You seem quite unable to comprehend or accept that.

[Sea Skimmer]

I wonder if the destruction of Coruscant would free up more resources than it would destroy?

The Empire did have an entire sector fleet guarding it. But it does have quadrillions of people and likely some very potent manufacturing capabilities and the Empire probably wouldn't run too well after having had all of its central government functions blown away. So the loss would be a pretty big one.

[Kamakazie Sith]

I wonder if the destruction of Coruscant would free up more resources than it would destroy?

The Empire did have an entire sector fleet guarding it. But it does have quadrillions of people and likely some very potent manufacturing capabilities and the Empire probably wouldn't run too well after having had all of its central government functions blown away. So the loss would be a pretty big one.

The Emperor was the government for the Empire, if he escaped....

I remember reading something somewhere which seemed to indicate that Coruscant actually ate up more resources than it produced.

[D.Turtle]

That it actually very probable - if you only count (material) resources.

Coruscant is the capital - so probably large parts of the bureaucracy are on it. The Emperor is not the government - he cant do all of the adminisrative and bureaucratic jobs that a government depends on to work properly. The Emperor is the head of the government and controls it overall, but he still needs lots and lots of people to do his wishes. Therefore the loss of Coruscant would be quite a loss (symbolically too).

I think its doubtful that the TE could pull that off though.

@Ender: I think it doubtful that the TE genesis torps have a special mechanism to penetrate ST shields (Then they would have to be calibrated for every new type of shields, each new species discovered etc). Problem is that we do not know anything about the yield of the TE genesis torps. Therefore it cant be evaluated. Therefore though it is an interesting weapon, it cant really be used in this vs debate (unless Happytarget would say something about the yield or the mechanism of TE genesis torps).

[Ender]

ST shields work under an entirly different set of principles from SW shields. So the fact that it can penetrate TE ships shields doesn't really show alot.

That said, i think a strike against Coruscant would fail because if it was an incoming danger, the Emperor would be alerted and gone, thus making it moot whether the strike worked or not as the primary objective would have failed.

I wonder if the destruction of Coruscant would free up more resources than it would destroy?

If nothing else it would provide justification to make the galaxy unite agaisnt them instead of having all the terrorist groups.

well, you'd probably have pirates still going like you did after the Vong took out coruscant, but other then that it should galvanize them like it did for the GA

[Patrick Degan]

Degan, quit trolling and get the fuck out.

It is you who is acting the troll. And as you started with a snotty attitude in your reply to me, you can take your hypocritical protestation and shove it up your ass.

The OP clearly defines what SW has (what we see in canon and the EU) and what the TE has (In HappyTarget's fanfic). You seem quite unable to comprehend or accept that.

Except here, we're not playing by the rules Happy Target laid down. This is a vs. debate and the rules of conduct here are the only ones that matter. So you can stop your Style over Substance bullshit as well.

[Patrick Degan]

The TE advocates (as you call them) in this thread are using a technology which is a widely used technology. One that was successfully used many, many times (against the Borg and other enemies).
The GE has only a few CGT sensors and only had 2 DS (both of which were destroyed shortly after or before completion).

This is NOT a case of using a technology that is rare in TE and at the same time taking out a technology that is rare in the GE.

This IS a case of using a technology(weapon) that has seen widespread use in the TE and taking out a technology which was apparently very rare (the other's pointed out that CGT sensors were only used/seen three times - if this is wrong then point it out and provide proof).

Remember - this is the TE not normal ST. Genesis torpedoes in sT are a lost tech. In the TE they were used excessively and are not a lost tech.

In normal ST Genesis torpedoes most probably do not work through shields. In the TE they work through shields (starship shields and IIRC also through planetary shields).

You can NOT argue with normal ST in an argument that is not even involving normal ST.

To reiterate:

The "visiting team" is in an idealized condition, ie- at the height of its strength, without having to worry about enemies in its own galaxy. In other words, the Empire has all the ships and weapons it built for the civil war, without having to worry about the Rebellion. The Federation has all the ships and weapons it built for the Borg and the Dominion, without having to worry about either of them. Of course, this tends to give an advantage to the visiting team.

[darthdavid]

This is actually better for TE. All the genisis torps pre borg, no borg to waste them on. GE has mabye 5-6 cgts at most even at it's absoulte hight so .