Three American soldiers beaten to death by Iraqi Teens

[Stravo]

Three American Soldiers Killed in Iraq
By MARIAM FAM, AP

MOSUL, Iraq (Nov. 23) - Iraqi teenagers dragged two bloodied U.S. soldiers from a wrecked vehicle and pummeled them with concrete blocks Sunday, witnesses said, describing the killings as a burst of savagery in a city once safe for Americans.

Another soldier was killed by a bomb and a U.S.-allied police chief was assassinated.

The U.S.-led coalition also said it grounded commercial flights after the military confirmed that a missile struck a DHL cargo plane that landed Saturday at Baghdad International Airport with its wing aflame.

Nevertheless, American officers insisted they were making progress in bringing stability to Iraq, and the U.S.-appointed Governing Council named an ambassador to Washington - an Iraqi-American woman who spent the past decade lobbying U.S. lawmakers to promote democracy in her homeland.

Witnesses to the Mosul attack said gunmen shot two soldiers driving through the city center, sending their vehicle crashing into a wall. The 101st Airborne Division said the soldiers were driving to another garrison.

About a dozen swarming teenagers dragged the soldiers out of the wreckage and beat them with concrete blocks, the witnesses said.

''They lifted a block and hit them with it on the face,'' said Younis Mahmoud, 19.

It was unknown whether the soldiers were alive or dead when pulled from the wreckage.

Initial reports said the soldiers' throats were cut. But another witness, teenager Bahaa Jassim, said the wounds appeared to have come from bullets.

''One of the soldiers was shot under the chin and the bullet came out of his head. I saw the hole in his helmet. The other was shot in the throat,'' Jassim said.

Some people looted the vehicle of weapons, CDs and a backpack, Jassim said.

''They remained there for over an hour without the Americans knowing anything about it,'' he said. ''I ... went and told other troops.''

Television footage showed the soldiers' bodies splayed on the ground as U.S. troops secured the area. One victim's foot appeared to have been severed.

The frenzy recalled the October 1993 scene in Somalia, when locals dragged the bodies of Marines killed in fighting with warlords through the streets.

In Baqouba, just north of Baghdad, insurgents detonated a roadside bomb as a 4th Infantry Division convoy passed, killing one soldier and wounding two others, the military said.

In Baghdad, Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt confirmed the Mosul deaths but refused to provide details.

''We're not going to get ghoulish about it,'' he said.

The savagery of the attack was unusual for Mosul, once touted as a success story in sharp contrast to the anti-American violence seen in Sunni Muslim areas north and west of Baghdad.

In recent weeks, however, attacks against U.S. troops have increased in Mosul, raising concerns the insurgency is spreading.

Simultaneously, attacks have accelerated against Iraqis considered to be supporting Americans - such as policemen and politicians working for the interim Iraqi administration.

On Sunday, gunmen killed the Iraqi police chief of Latifiyah, 20 miles south of Baghdad, and his bodyguard and driver, American and Iraqi officials said. No further details were released.

The assassination occurred one day after suicide bombers struck two police stations northeast of Baghdad within 30 minutes, killing at least 14 people. Gunmen on Saturday also killed an Iraqi police colonel protecting oil installations in Mosul.

In Samara, about 75 miles north of Baghdad, Iraqi police said six U.S. Apache helicopter gunships blasted marshland after four rocket-propelled grenades were fired at the American military garrison at the city's northern end. One Iraqi passer-by was killed in the air attack, police said.

In Kirkuk, 150 miles north of Baghdad, a bomb exploded at an oil compound, injuring three American civilian contractors from the U.S. firm Kellogg Brown & Root. The three suffered facial cuts from flying glass, U.S. Lt. Col. Matt Croke said.

KBR, a subsidiary of Halliburton, also has a significant presence at Baghdad's Palestine Hotel, which was rocketed by insurgents Friday, wounding one civilian.

''We all know that Americans are being threatened,'' Croke said.

Kimmitt told reporters in Baghdad that witnesses saw two surface-to-air missiles fired Saturday at a cargo plane operated by the Belgium-based package service DHL as it left for Bahrain.

The plane was the first civilian airliner hit by insurgents, who have shot down several military helicopters with shoulder-fired rockets.

DHL and Royal Jordanian, the only commercial passenger airline flying into Baghdad, immediately suspended flights on orders of the coalition authority.

Despite the ongoing violence, U.S. officials insisted the occupation was going well.

''If you look at the accomplishments of the coalition since March of this year, it has been enormous,'' Marine Gen. Peter Pace, vice chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, said in Tikrit.

Pace is touring Afghanistan and Iraq.

Also Sunday, Iraqi Foreign Minister Hoshyar Zebari said veteran Washington lobbyist Rend Rahim Francke was appointed Iraq's ambassador to the United States. Francke, an Iraq native who has spent most of her life abroad, led the Iraq Foundation, a Washington-based pro-democracy group, and has helped plan Iraq's transition from Saddam Hussein's rule.

The appointment will renew the diplomatic ties between Washington and Baghdad severed in 1990 when Saddam invaded Kuwait.

[Sea Skimmer]

Well this story is changing with every telling, everything else says the solider where shot and killed first however, and some reports where saying that bodies weren't actually beaten. Well we will see.

[Sarevok]

There is something seriously wrong with the US strategy in Iraq. They send troops in small groups in lightly armoured veichles. No wonder US troops are such easy targets. It is about time they change their tactics. The Americans should consider patroling hostile areas in groups of large groups of heavy tanks with air support. They should also contact Israel for training, Israelis after all lose very few soldiers compared to the US.

[Gandalf]

Fuck, they need new tactics, I agree with the idea of bigger groups.

[Howedar]

There is something seriously wrong with the US strategy in Iraq. They send troops in small groups in lightly armoured veichles.

Thats how its done.

No wonder US troops are such easy targets. It is about time they change their tactics. The Americans should consider patroling hostile areas in groups of large groups

No.

of heavy tanks

No.

with air support.

No.

They should also contact Israel for training, Israelis after all lose very few soldiers compared to the US.

Oh, so THAT'S how we get Iraqi goodwill! We get help from the fucking Israelis!

[Sarevok]

Oh, so THAT'S how we get Iraqi goodwill! We get help from the fucking Israelis!

The Israelis have apparantly been more succesful in dealing with insurgencies. It would be better if the Americans emulated them. Learning from the Israelis does not mean IDF troops in Iraq. And the US could keep it secret to ensure the Iraqis do not get angry.

[Darth Wong]

There is something seriously wrong with the US strategy in Iraq. They send troops in small groups in lightly armoured veichles. No wonder US troops are such easy targets. It is about time they change their tactics. The Americans should consider patroling hostile areas in groups of large groups of heavy tanks with air support. They should also contact Israel for training, Israelis after all lose very few soldiers compared to the US.

This would cause them to lose almost all of their mobility and flexibility, as they would be unable to move any troops anywhere without massive force (not to mention the effect on Iraqi goodwill).

You might as well suggest that they cut down on their casualties by simply digging into fortified positions and never moving at all except for resupply.

[Vympel]

The Israelis have apparantly been more succesful in dealing with insurgencies.

Israel still puts up with terror bombings on a daily basis- their tactics are an utter failure. The only reason their troops don't die regularly like US troops in Iraq is because the Palestinians aren't well armed- Iraqi guerillas have the armory of a vanished Army to use against their foes, largely unguarded thanks to the low troop numbers.

[Sea Skimmer]

The Israelis have apparantly been more succesful in dealing with insurgencies. It would be better if the Americans emulated them. Learning from the Israelis does not mean IDF troops in Iraq. And the US could keep it secret to ensure the Iraqis do not get angry.

Israeli use firepower on a far less restrained basis, while the Palestinians have basically nothing in he way of mortars, MANPADS or even RPG's. Some US forces did train with the Israeli's before the invasion for MOUT but they have nothing to teach the US army now.

[Sarevok]

This would cause them to lose almost all of their mobility and flexibility, as they would be unable to move any troops anywhere without massive force (not to mention the effect on Iraqi goodwill).

You might as well suggest that they cut down on their casualties by simply digging into fortified positions and never moving at all except for resupply.

You are right. But the fact is the current US strategy is not working. The US is both losing people and the Iraqi goodwill. A new strategy is needed.

[The Kernel]

What we need in Iraq is the equivalent of the LAPD that speaks Arabic. Seriously, the United States Army isn't trained for this kind of work, we need a good police force. Maybe a new branch of the military that deals with this sort of thing.

I would also like to point out that what really needs to be done in Iraq right now is the suspension of certain freedoms until the country gets back on its feet. I know this sounds cruel, but I think the freedom is the last thing these people are concerned with right now (feeding their families might be on the top of their lists) and it would help to stabilize the situation and put an iron clamp down around the massive amounts of local corruption. We've seen this kind of situation before in other war-torn countries and our occupation methods didn't work their either.

Anyways this is just another incident in a string of incidents that will continue until we either shape up or leave.

[Sea Skimmer]

What we need in Iraq is the equivalent of the LAPD that speaks Arabic. Seriously, the United States Army isn't trained for this kind of work, we need a good police force. Maybe a new branch of the military that deals with this sort of thing.

There called Military Police. However a stupid decision long ago put most of those units in the reserves, though a great many jobs do require soldiers, you don't use MP's for convoy escort for example. None of the jobs require the equivalent of beats cops, Iraq has its own.

[Ace Pace]

The Israelis have apparantly been more succesful in dealing with insurgencies. It would be better if the Americans emulated them. Learning from the Israelis does not mean IDF troops in Iraq. And the US could keep it secret to ensure the Iraqis do not get angry.

I would ask you to come over to my neighborhood and tell me how succesful IS our army, when a DRUNKEN suicide bomber can threaten a restaurunt? I could just talk off my head with how USELESS our army is fighting the insurgencies.

Last, keep things secret? what do you live in? a box? nothing is being kept secret, we have a FUCKIN media to thank for in that regard

[Chardok]

There called Military Police. However a stupid decision long ago put most of those units in the reserves, though a great many jobs do require soldiers, you don't use MP's for convoy escort for example. None of the jobs require the equivalent of beats cops, Iraq has its own.

Actually, Skimmer, convoy escort and Rear area security are the Primary wartime focus of the Military Police corps. MP'S are among the most heavily armed, highly mobile units in the Army. Very, very capable with respect to convoy escorts.

MP's- NOT just for guarding motorpools anymore!

[Tribun]

Seems that November will be one of the worst months for the US in Iraq. Do you think that the remaining 6 days of this month could be even more bloodier?

[Vendetta]

The Israelis have apparantly been more succesful in dealing with insurgencies. It would be better if the Americans emulated them. Learning from the Israelis does not mean IDF troops in Iraq. And the US could keep it secret to ensure the Iraqis do not get angry.

Actually, they're learning from the British Army.

Which has specific training and tactics for dealing with small numbers of terrorist fighters amongst civillian populations, and has been applying them successfully in Belfast for the last thirty years, and they do not involve heavy armour, obtrusive occupation forces, and randomly attacking civillian populations because they might be sheltering, willingly or not, someone you don't like.

Most of the troops in Basra have been trained at the centre usually used for training soldiers to work in Northern Ireland.

There have been liaison officers with the US army since the start of the war.

The Baghdad area is still higly volatile, and will remain so for some time, even after a proper Iraqi governing body is installed. (which is one of hte points of contention for some)

[The Kernel]

What we need in Iraq is the equivalent of the LAPD that speaks Arabic. Seriously, the United States Army isn't trained for this kind of work, we need a good police force. Maybe a new branch of the military that deals with this sort of thing.

There called Military Police. However a stupid decision long ago put most of those units in the reserves, though a great many jobs do require soldiers, you don't use MP's for convoy escort for example. None of the jobs require the equivalent of beats cops, Iraq has its own.

I'm not talking about putting police in military escort tasks, I mean that a strong police force is what Iraq needs to stablilize the terrorism elements that are going on right now. And don't tell me Iraqi police are helping much given the level of corruption and their total lack of experience.

[Admiral Valdemar]

I agree with Vendetta, the tactics to be used should be urban counter-terrorist like in Northern Ireland, NOT Israeli tactics.

[jegs2]

Witnesses to the Mosul attack said gunmen shot two soldiers driving through the city center, sending their vehicle crashing into a wall. The 101st Airborne Division said the soldiers were driving to another garrison.

About a dozen swarming teenagers dragged the soldiers out of the wreckage and beat them with concrete blocks, the witnesses said.

Okay, it appears that the vehicle was traveling alone. If that is the case, then it's the wrong answer. At a minimum, that should have been a three-vehicle convoy with at least one mounted, crew-served weapon. Due to either a leader's bad decision or the vehicle commander's lack of judgment, two soldiers are dead.

[Coyote]

Actually, in th elast major IDF raid in a Palestinian village (Jenin, 2001) the Israeli Army copied the tactics that the Soviet Army used in Stalingrad-- cutting through structures and going through the town that way, avoiding the streets entirely.

Needless to say, that would not be the best PR move for the US in this case.

Remember, th emedia is not reporting that happy (read= "unexciting") things in Iraq. At Fort Lewis last week I saw the base-run news program where Engineers were rebuilding playgrounds for kids and local Iraqis loved having the Americans there... but since that is not 'dramatic' it doesn't get on the civilian news services.

Mosul had been friendly for awhile so the troops were probably more relaxed than they could have been/should have been.

[weemadando]

Look, when you have people doing something like this its not because they loved Saddam, its because of hate of the US.

Something is deeply wrong in that country.

I was watching a doco last night where a UK journo was riding with various groups in post war Iraq and to a man all the US soldiers from Privates through to Majors agreed that it was a clusterfuck on behalf of "those on high", who according to one "don't see whats really happening here, they talk about action plans and put forward proposals, but nothings getting done, at least, I don't see anything getting done, the people of Iraq don't see anything getting done and as such they get angry. We need to get these people water, food, shelter and medicine. Most of the people here are lucky to have one of those on any given day."

Such acts of crowd violence are a true sign of a distressed populace, not a group of ultra-loyalists waging a guerilla war. Yes, its a bad way to go, yes, its disgusting that it happened, but with who does the blame really lie?

[HemlockGrey]

Yes, its a bad way to go, yes, its disgusting that it happened, but with who does the blame really lie?

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say the blame lies with the people who actually commit the acts. The underlying causes may be deeper, but that doesn't change the fact that its not Rummy who's going around bludgeoning people to death.

[weemadando]

Yes, its a bad way to go, yes, its disgusting that it happened, but with who does the blame really lie?

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say the blame lies with the people who actually commit the acts. The underlying causes may be deeper, but that doesn't change the fact that its not Rummy who's going around bludgeoning people to death.

Sure the blame for the deaths of the soldiers is with the mob, but why was there a mob in the first place and why did they feel the need to kill?

You're forgetting on of the tenets of criminal justice in your own society - motive.

Figure out WHY the mob killed them and you figure out where the real blame for it lies.

In my opinion its equal parts:

Feet dragging by the US (for many reasons),

UN being wary (and consequently having the US hold off on many of its plans),

Iraqi resistance (screwing with both US and UN plans),

General dislike of occupiers (everything from King Arthur to the French Resistance points out this as being a fairly natural occurance - even among the grass roots whom aren't actively resisting),

Lack of many basic resources (for many reasons),

Religious incompatabilities (within the nation, the region and between occupier and occupied).


I'm pretty sure I missed one, but I'll post a follow up when I remember.