And now a "Survivor" scenario for the Trekkers.

[Ted C]

- a shapeshifter who can form metal objects and sharp edges (the burden of proof is on anyone who says he can't do both at once) and form restraints, barriers, and animals (all shown onscreen), and has no blood for the bats to smell, and can probably form anatomy capable of seeing infrared or echolocating (there are Earth animals that do each), and can't be injured at all by the bats.

Odo has demonstrated that he can at least pretend to be drinking out of a rigid glass mug when the mug is in fact part of his body, so I'll give him the ability to manifest a knife or something.

His ability to imitate something capable of IR vision or echolocation would presumably depend on him being familiar with such a species. Maybe there's something appropriate on Bajor...

He can be injured. If a large bat-monster were to, say, bite off one of his arms while he were in his humanoid form, said arm would liquify inside the monster's body (as demonstrated by the "Founder test" devised by the Klingons, spill some blood from a Founder and watch it turn to Founder goo). I don't believe Odo has demonstrated the ability to control portions of his own mass at a distance, so I'd say that "arm" is lost to him. It may be indigestible to the monster, but it's still gone. If swarmed with the bat monsters (a very real possibility in this scenario), Odo could very easily be nibbled to death.

[YT300000]

So to recap, we have team Trek:

- a bullet-resistant machine with superhuman strength, speed, and sensory perception, who has no blood for the bats to smell, and can't be completely destroyed by them, and can be salvaged as long as his head is intact

And is currently space dust.

- a shapeshifter who can form metal objects and sharp edges (the burden of proof is on anyone who says he can't do both at once)

Bullshit. We never saw it, you say he can do it, well you have to prove it. Don't pull a SAR2.

- a forcefield with superhuman strength and speed

In the Beowulf episode, he couldn't life a fucking sword above his knees!

- a telekinetic who can will things into transwarp, cause explosions at will, and boil blood

See Mike's arguments. No Force, no Kes-powers.

Or Odo goes T-1000 on him (or disguises himself as water and does the Alien thing after Chewy drinks him

He has never done these, even when it would be immensely useful. So he won't do it now.

, or forms a wall, or a blunt object, or just hides).

Woah. Those would be so helpful.

Or he tries to hit the Holodoc, and burns the fuck out of his hand (in the program where the Holodoc fought Beowulf, a Viking tried to hit him with a sword and the sword got extremely hot when it passed through him)

Are you sure the sword was heated?

or gets his ass kicked (like Tuvok and Paris) plain and simple.

Well substanciated argument.

Or Kes looks at him funny and he boils or his head explodes or he finds himself a few lightyears away, breathing vacuum.

See above.

Let's think about cooperating.

Conceeding that Trek can't win?

[General Zod]

By your standard, Anakin can't even exist because virgin birth is impossible.

i just had to nitpick this one point, simply because nobody else has pointed it out. it is in fact possible for a virgin to give birth. using real world technology in fact. it's called artificial insemination.

[Metrion Cascade]

- a shapeshifter who can form metal objects and sharp edges (the burden of proof is on anyone who says he can't do both at once) and form restraints, barriers, and animals (all shown onscreen), and has no blood for the bats to smell, and can probably form anatomy capable of seeing infrared or echolocating (there are Earth animals that do each), and can't be injured at all by the bats.

Odo has demonstrated that he can at least pretend to be drinking out of a rigid glass mug when the mug is in fact part of his body, so I'll give him the ability to manifest a knife or something.

His ability to imitate something capable of IR vision or echolocation would presumably depend on him being familiar with such a species. Maybe there's something appropriate on Bajor...

He can be injured. If a large bat-monster were to, say, bite off one of his arms while he were in his humanoid form, said arm would liquify inside the monster's body (as demonstrated by the "Founder test" devised by the Klingons, spill some blood from a Founder and watch it turn to Founder goo). I don't believe Odo has demonstrated the ability to control portions of his own mass at a distance, so I'd say that "arm" is lost to him. It may be indigestible to the monster, but it's still gone. If swarmed with the bat monsters (a very real possibility in this scenario), Odo could very easily be nibbled to death.

One problem. He can form metals and other materials the bats can't penetrate. The Founder test requires the Founder to willingly supply a sample, and it is also well-demonstrated that Founders can change volume (and possibly even mass, which would require the ability to absorb surrounding material, but I'll assume only the volume-changing ability).

[Gandalf]

By your standard, Anakin can't even exist because virgin birth is impossible.

i just had to nitpick this one point, simply because nobody else has pointed it out. it is in fact possible for a virgin to give birth. using real world technology in fact. it's called artificial insemination.

It never said she was a virgin, it just said that there was no father, there's no way a slave woman with so many years behind her is a virgin.

[Metrion Cascade]

So to recap, we have team Trek:

- a bullet-resistant machine with superhuman strength, speed, and sensory perception, who has no blood for the bats to smell, and can't be completely destroyed by them, and can be salvaged as long as his head is intact

And is currently space dust.

I said he's alive. Period.

- a shapeshifter who can form metal objects and sharp edges (the burden of proof is on anyone who says he can't do both at once)

Bullshit. We never saw it, you say he can do it, well you have to prove it. Don't pull a SAR2.

The difference between making metal and sharp edges separately and doing both at the same time is pretty miniscule. He has done each onscreen, so some impediment would be required to prevent him from making a sharp edge that is also metallic. It's like saying that seeing me walk and then seeing me chew gum doesn't mean I can do both at once. We have seen Odo form metal. We have seen him form sharp edges. Jesus Christ, we've seen him form a working Bajoran commbadge. No stretch is required.

- a forcefield with superhuman strength and speed

In the Beowulf episode, he couldn't life a fucking sword above his knees!

He spent practically the whole series rewriting himself. By the end of the series, he was stronger and faster than Tuvok.

- a telekinetic who can will things into transwarp, cause explosions at will, and boil blood

See Mike's arguments. No Force, no Kes-powers.

See my rebuttal. Kes' abilities are not Force-dependent. And see that it doesn't matter, since I had to include the Force anyway because the Wars characters either require its presence to survive, or will CREATE the Force upon arrival. And you have already accepted the presence of Odo and the existence of the planet and the means for putting the contestants on it, so you can't use DW's "I know that you meant no suspension-of-disbelief" crap any more than he can.

Or Odo goes T-1000 on him (or disguises himself as water and does the Alien thing after Chewy drinks him

He has never done these, even when it would be immensely useful. So he won't do it now.

I can think of no situation where this was necessary. In the course of his duties Odo isn't allowed to simply kill prisoners (although he has killed in some situations), and in the presence of phasers it's too elaborate a tactic by comparison. I have seen Odo wrap around fleeing criminals, though.

, or forms a wall, or a blunt object, or just hides).

Woah. Those would be so helpful.

They WERE so helpful when Odo did them on DS9.

Or he tries to hit the Holodoc, and burns the fuck out of his hand (in the program where the Holodoc fought Beowulf, a Viking tried to hit him with a sword and the sword got extremely hot when it passed through him)

Are you sure the sword was heated?

Yes, by the pained look on the Viking's face, and the way he held his hand. No other cause fits.

or gets his ass kicked (like Tuvok and Paris) plain and simple.

Well substanciated argument.

Nice try. Explain how it isn't.

Or Kes looks at him funny and he boils or his head explodes or he finds himself a few lightyears away, breathing vacuum.

See above.

Let's think about cooperating.

Conceeding that Trek can't win?

Har de har har.

[Metrion Cascade]

By your standard, Anakin can't even exist because virgin birth is impossible.

i just had to nitpick this one point, simply because nobody else has pointed it out. it is in fact possible for a virgin to give birth. using real world technology in fact. it's called artificial insemination.

Oh, yeah. Think Shmi got IVF'ed, and then forgot about it? Or maybe it was done covertly? That would be sick. And if some nefarious party wanted to make Anakin, why use an aging slave woman on a near-lawless planet instead of a young ripe well-fed surrogate in a controlled environment?

[Crown]

or gets his ass kicked (like Tuvok and Paris) plain and simple.

Well substanciated argument.

Nice try. Explain how it isn't.

You are an idiot. Let me break it down for you; you have to prove that either Tuvok or Paris are anywhere near a physical threat as an enraged Wookie! To paraphrase you; I can kill a mongouse, a snake can kill me, therfore a snake has nothing to fear from a mongouse!

Do you see the stupidity in that? You need to demonstrate that a Vulcan (Tuvok) or a Human (Paris) as anywhere near as dangerous as a Wookie (Chewbacca) in order for your example to work. Otherwise it is nothing more than subjective bullshit.

By your standard, Anakin can't even exist because virgin birth is impossible.

just had to nitpick this one point, simply because nobody else has pointed it out. it is in fact possible for a virgin to give birth. using real world technology in fact. it's called artificial insemination.

Oh, yeah. Think Shmi got IVF'ed, and then forgot about it? Or maybe it was done covertly? That would be sick. And if some nefarious party wanted to make Anakin, why use an aging slave woman on a near-lawless planet instead of a young ripe well-fed surrogate in a controlled environment?

ALL OF WHICH HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH YOUR GODDAMN POINT OF A VIRGIN BIRTH BEING IMPOSSIBLE!

Jeez, what is your damage anyway? You stated that a virgin birth isn't possible, you were proven wrong ... get over it.

In the end the Star Wars team wins because Han is the only character who is immune to physical attacks, the kind the Pitch Dark animals will make. Like I said before, set the timer, drag out side, and done.

[YT300000]

I said he's alive. Period.

Very well.

I can think of no situation where this was necessary. In the course of his duties Odo isn't allowed to simply kill prisoners (although he has killed in some situations), and in the presence of phasers it's too elaborate a tactic by comparison. I have seen Odo wrap around fleeing criminals, though.

It was never necessary, but it would have been very useful. Even evil Odo never formed bladed weapons. Odo didn't even make them to cut through obstacles.

They WERE so helpful when Odo did them on DS9.

While hiding would be very useful, Odo never turned his hands into baseball bats to whack people (not in the episodes I saw, anyways). As for a wall, I think you mean an invisible wall that Chewbacca would run into. He would just knock it over.

Yes, by the pained look on the Viking's face, and the way he held his hand. No other cause fits.

Alright. Haven't seen the episode in a while.

Nice try. Explain how it isn't.

See Crown's rebuttal.

MC, if you want a situation that in which SW can't win, you need to do something like this:

ST:
The aforementioned characters
E-E in orbit, within transport range, ready to beam them up
An absence of strange minerals, cloud formations, ambient radiation or FM radio signals (to name a few things that block transporters)

SW:
Jabba, 100 km away from the ST team.

[Durandal]

Yes, dumbass, I myself said it was contradictory. Which is why I then said that I cannot include Wars characters and deny the Force at the same time.

Ah, that explains why all Star Wars characters cease to exist when they're within an ysalamiri's Force-empty bubble.

Oh, wait ...

[Shogoki]

The SW team wins, they dont even have to leave the ship if they where riding on a SW ship, as they are not the kind that falls apart on any impact, like, say, ST ships, much less if the crew survived, it may not be able to fly again, but if the hull is resonably intact they can just wait there until the suns come up again. Hell, one of those hulls may serve as a modern day bomb shelter.

[Metrion Cascade]

The SW team wins, they dont even have to leave the ship if they where riding on a SW ship, as they are not the kind that falls apart on any impact, like, say, ST ships, much less if the crew survived, it may not be able to fly again, but if the hull is resonably intact they can just wait there until the suns come up again. Hell, one of those hulls may serve as a modern day bomb shelter.

They didn't crash in ships from their own universes. They're inside the cargo ship from "Pitch Black." The one the bats were able to get inside.