taiwan mentions independence, china commences primary igniti

[septesix]

I won't be quoting all the points but just replying in general.

I'm not sure the vaildity of the webpage you posted , Yenchin did a better job responding to it than I can.

About for the whole Independence issue, I will only accept Reuniting with China under ONE condition: That ChiComm be replaced by a free, democratic government which can accurately represent the people of China and not just a few Dictators at the top.

Being allowed to vote really doesn't meant anything, as evident by the "election" that ChiComm holds. You are from the place, you should know better than I do. At least once the referendum laws is establised , Taiwaness can voice their desire directly, elected government be damned or not.

Referendum really is more important than just a stunts to pull votes. IT might start out that way, and what KMT's proposing sure sounds that way. But no one can deny that Taiwan does need another Consitution change, or even a complete overhaul like DPP suggested. Come on, you have prime minister and then you have a president and you don't even know who can do or cannot do....The current system is practically an abomination. It Has to Change! Beside, Taiwaness people seem to love voting. We get election just about every year and the voting percentage is always in the high 70s or even low 80s.

[septesix]

er what that piece of article basically says A B C are pretty much wack...

http://thechinadesk.tripod.com/defendin ... ocracy.htm

^that's the article that says a whole bunch of stuff, care to clarify whether or not it's just simply biased or does is it relatively objective ?

It will take a while before I can sort through that entire page, but here's some thoughts on the general points.

First , it is basing the entire argument on ONE incident that really DOES have national security concerns. Saying that it's an example of "Green Terror" is basing the whole thing on thin ice, if not quicksands.

Second, Taiwaness freedom is being threaten by ChiComm much more than anything DPP can hope to accomplish. After all, DPP wasn't even winning the popularity survey right now. How can they threaten something when they might soon be dethroned in 4 month anyway?

[arctic_series]

I'm not sure the vaildity of the webpage you posted , Yenchin did a better job responding to it than I can.

well the author of the site seems to have some taiwanese background, so can't really dismiss him as some random nut spewing random crap, he does back up with sources.

About for the whole Independence issue, I will only accept Reuniting with China under ONE condition: That ChiComm be replaced by a free, democratic government which can accurately represent the people of China and not just a few Dictators at the top.

well isn't the current stance of reunification where taiwan pretty much gets the hong kong treatment ?

one thing that has me puzzled though..

http://thechinadesk.tripod.com/the_case_against_ti.htm

^that article suggests that the majority is actually against independence. even though i keep getting the impression that it's the other way around.. ?

[arctic_series]

Second, Taiwaness freedom is being threaten by ChiComm much more than anything DPP can hope to accomplish.

mmm elaborate on how taiwanese freedom is being threatened by chicomm ? i got the impression that it'll be strictly like the hong kong reunification process, business as usual.. ?

[Sea Skimmer]

Could Taiwan really afford to challenge China tit-for-tat in arms race?

The PRC already outspends Taiwan many times over. But the whole block obsolesce aspect of there military will take a vast amount of money to correct and that doesn't leave much for developing expensive new capabilities like major amphibious warfare forces. Their naval plans are very modest as it is.

Even assuming the Americans step in, the PRC retains a massive advantage in terms of operable equipment.

But its 90+% utter crap, and large-scale use of fodder is a losing proposition against modern weapons. Most of there aerial fodder would be hard pressed to reach Taiwan anyway.

With the right missiles, they could make a good (i.e. expensive) go of it, too. The Falklands, anyone?

I'm not really sure what you're trying to say.

[septesix]

Quotes from the webpage.

When it comes to the issue of cross Straits reunification at least, just exactly who feels threatened by the free exchange of ideas across the Taiwan Straits? Just exactly who feels the need to impose state censorship to keep the goodwill between mainland and Taiwan Chinese a secret?

And does mainland even AIR any of Taiwaness news media, uncensored? You're from China, tell me if they do. I dare say that they don't.

"Mr. Democracy" refers to his arbitary, unconstitutional decree forbidding ROC citizens from taking an airliner, mailing a letter, or shipping a freight container, directly from Taipei to Xiamen or Shanghai as a "policy." Chinese on Taiwan who defy Lee's "policy," stringently enforced by Lee's successor Chen, face legal prosecution.

We have our own secruity concern when it comes to the direct travel between the two sides. Beside, that policy is the legacy of Chiang, not Lee. We just haven't got around to somehow deal with it yet, since China lack all faith (and the intelligence , I might add) to talk about it with us without bringing in the whole Reunite/Independence issue. And the restriction is not unilateral. ChiComm doesn't allow ROC citizen to fly directl,y mail a letter or ship a container directly from taiwan to china either.

Lee doesn't want Chinese on Taiwan to reconcile with their kinfolk on the mainland

What kinsfolk? the only people who have kinsfolk on China are the little minority who retreat to taiwan with the KMT government. My family has been in Taiwan for hundreds of years. I ain't got no Kinfolks in China. That's one BALANT lie on the part of the writer.

The Republic of China's Constitution and Taiwan's pro reunification majority are mere inconvenient obstacles standing in the way of their would-be "Republic of Taiwan" to be circumvented by any means available, no matter how illegal, unconstitutional or immoral.

Lies , lies and more lies. There was never a majority for pro-reunification. The writer has shown that he's biased toward reunificiaton by that false claim alone. It makes me wonder if I should read through the rest of the page if they contains more lies like that.

[septesix]

Second, Taiwaness freedom is being threaten by ChiComm much more than anything DPP can hope to accomplish.

mmm elaborate on how taiwanese freedom is being threatened by chicomm ? i got the impression that it'll be strictly like the hong kong reunification process, business as usual.. ?

Riiight, except, nobody on the island believe that. Business as usual? Not after the whole Bill 23 fiasco. China blew a chance to show that it actually meant what it said. No matter how much they tried to make up for it later, the damege is done.

One simple questions, Will ChiComm allow Taiwaness to spread Anti-ChiComm materials? To disclose the extend of which they are oppresing people in China? (Remember Fa-Lung Kun?)? Will Taiwan still be allowed to vote for their own leader, even one who's obviously anti- ChiComm?

ChiComm has too bad a track record for anyone to believe that They will actaully let Taiwan be "Business as usual" after reunification. That's why the majority are against it.

And if I haven't make it clear enough. We are against reunificaiton with ChiComm, not China. A Free, demorcaticly produced China government who respect the wills of Taiwaness people is always welcome to talk about reunification with us. I just don't see such a government happening anytime soon.

[arctic_series]

And does mainland even AIR any of Taiwaness news media, uncensored? You're from China, tell me if they do. I dare say that they don't.

i wouldn't know, i don't reside in mainland china that often.

What kinsfolk? the only people who have kinsfolk on China are the little minority who retreat to taiwan with the KMT government. My family has been in Taiwan for hundreds of years. I ain't got no Kinfolks in China. That's one BALANT lie on the part of the writer.

well gimme your version of the taiwan population breakdown, i've always had the impression that natives like you who have resided in taiwan for hundreds of years were a very small minority.

Riiight, except, nobody on the island believe that. Business as usual? Not after the whole Bill 23 fiasco. China blew a chance to show that it actually meant what it said. No matter how much they tried to make up for it later, the damege is done.

bill 23 fiasco ?

One simple questions, Will ChiComm allow Taiwaness to spread Anti-ChiComm materials? To disclose the extend of which they are oppresing people in China? (Remember Fa-Lung Kun?)?

doubt it.. but it all depends on the level of anti-chicomm material we're talking about here.

Will Taiwan still be allowed to vote for their own leader, even one who's obviously anti- ChiComm?

thought that was the deal included in the 1 country 2 system thingy.

And if I haven't make it clear enough. We are against reunificaiton with ChiComm, not China. A Free, demorcaticly produced China government who respect the wills of Taiwaness people is always welcome to talk about reunification with us. I just don't see such a government happening anytime soon.

i also don't see that kind of government popping up anytime soon

[HemlockGrey]

Well, I'm heading to China for a while this spring. You guys meet me in Beijing and we'll orchastrate a revolution.

[septesix]

well gimme your version of the taiwan population breakdown, i've always had the impression that natives like you who have resided in taiwan for hundreds of years were a very small minority.

from http://www.nationmaster.com/country/tw/ ... b_define=1

Taiwanese (including Hakka) 84%, mainland Chinese 14%, aborigine 2%

Natives like me are in the vast majority there.

bill 23 fiasco ?

That's when the Hong Kong Parliment was trying to pass Bill 23 which is related to National Security. A lot of HKer were against it becuase of the ChiComm's track record to abuse such a law. The opposition to it was compunded by the failing Hong Kong economy. It finally result in the a huge 70,000 people demostration on July 1st this year. The real joke here is that even after that ChiComm still want to force the bill through the HK parliment, seemly unaware of the great opposition in Hong Kong. Later they back off said bill and claimed that the size of the demostration is "misreported" to them.....

[weemadando]

I think Taiwan should just go ahead and declare independence, and force China to admit they can't really do shit against them at all.

But then what would Dale Brown do for plots!

[Col. Crackpot]

I think Taiwan should just go ahead and declare independence, and force China to admit they can't really do shit against them at all.

But then what would Dale Brown do for plots!

repel invading armies of freemasons with laser armed hovercars or some shit.

and BTW Silver Tower seemed plausible when i read it in the 8th grade. lol

[Grand Moff Yenchin]

I don't want to sound like snipering so I'll just cover some main points.

First, Taiwan is not a democracy, but a cronyist dictatorship ruled by an Asian strongman. Taiwan under Lee Teng-hui and Chen Shui-bian is akin to the Philippines under Marcos and Indonesia under Suharto.

Oh yes, the reign under the Chiang family was true democracy.

Though I admit the fact the ROC constitution is flawed since it was established. The previous presidential election system praised by the author is nothing like the American system. The National Assembly was like the ROC version of the People Representative Assembly (Ren Dai Hui). Had it been like the American system Chiang would unlikely stay on the throne for such a long time.

Article 1: The Republic of China, founded on the Three Principles of the People, shall be a democratic republic of the People, by the people, and for the people.

And on the "Life" Principle Dr. Sun says: "The Principle of the People's Life (Min Sheng Chu Yi) is socialism, also known as communism" This is the so-called "Must be defended" constitution mentioned in the article. Oh yes this quote was censored.

On the Next Magazine incident:
More pot and kettle tactics. Again, the highly praised Chiang era was fucking worse. And the author mentions jack shit of the freedom under ChiComm.

On A-Bian's 'smear campaign':
It was a suppression of freedom of speech.Link(Big-5 Traditional Chinese)

"Green Terror": The talk shows were never suppressed. Li Yen Chiu's show is still running. The TV station airing Li Ao's show was suffering from financial problems. Sisy Chen is disgusting so I don't care and have no idea of what happened her show. Plus, the Japanese TV stations are themed on drama and variety shows. The news related TV stations are strongly pro-unification, and often enjoy their time clowning the Pan-Greens as well has covering-up of the Pan-Blue moronity.

And speaking of "Supression of expression", recently some people began publishing VCDs of direct quotes of politicians from the mentioned TV shows, plus some skits and talks based on some embarrasing facts, and who began the massive witch-hunting? Taipei City. Who's running the hunt? Mayor Ma Ying Jiou, KMT.

Oh and I wont go further on the mob threats to the VCD factories.

54 suitcases: Since the author brings out Chen's 1984 incident, I have to mention that the 54 suitcase incident was also a smear campaign.
Link)(Again, Big-5 Traditional Chinese, sorry for the English speaking readers.)

History really repeats, eh?

[Omega-13]

china was rumoured to have bought large amounts of Sunburn anti shipping missles from Russia,

even the US congress was worried when they heard this

They can only fire them (Moskit) from their two Project 956E Destroyers (soon to be joined by two new Project 956EM Destroyers with extended range versions). Not good enough, but a worry if they manage to fire.

I'm not sure where I read it, i believe it was BBC, maybe you heard the same but, the chinese were 'trying' to get the russians to sell them their new S-400's,

Such an order would take about four-five years to complete- if the balance of power over the straits is seen as changing, I'm sure the US would be glad to supply more fighters to Taiwan.

i agree here, but I think the chinese would want to buy defensive weapons quickly from the russians, to try and wound the american battle groups rather than trying to buy planes which take far longer to ship and receive.

[SWPIGWANG]

http://thechinadesk.tripod.com/

how can anyone write all that BS with a straight face?

[septesix]

http://thechinadesk.tripod.com/

how can anyone write all that BS with a straight face?

It amaze me too. I mean, he's born a taiwaness too. There are so many things on that website that he simply SHOULD KNOW BETTER.

I can only conclude that, since he's so heavily biased toward reunification yet receive so little factual support from people around him in Taipei/Taiwan, he can only pose seemly logical arguments by making up supporting claims.

That, or somehow the ChiComm brainwashed him while he's working in Shang-Hai..

[Grand Moff Yenchin]

http://thechinadesk.tripod.com/

how can anyone write all that BS with a straight face?

It amaze me too. I mean, he's born a taiwaness too. There are so many things on that website that he simply SHOULD KNOW BETTER.

Well this BS is going on every day. And with election season coming near (or I should say, beginning) there will be more and more. Such points are commonly held and cried out so often so it wasn't hard for me to recognize the attack patterns.

Although the author is a born Taiwanese his POV are strongly pro "Out-Provincer". And, though I hate to use ethnic discrimination words and hasty generalization, he is obviously a 2nd generation "Out-Provincer". He sees Lee and Chen as dictators, praises Chiang, sees TI as a Japanophile movement, emphasizes the Chinese ethnicity and hints on looking down to "Local-Provincers".

In the past politicians holding this point broke out from KMT and formed the "New Party". And from the elections the New Party's points proved to be supported on a very low basis. But since the media is pro-unification the illusion is that people support such moronity.

[MKSheppard]

From Wash Post:

China Gives Taiwan Warning
"Strong reaction" threatened if Taiwan allows tomorrow's referendum on pursuing independence.

[Uraniun235]

HA! That's rich. Just what could the Chinese do to Taiwan?

[Sea Skimmer]

I'm not sure where I read it, i believe it was BBC, maybe you heard the same but, the chinese were 'trying' to get the russians to sell them their new S-400's,

You do know the S-400 is a SAM not an SSM right?

i agree here, but I think the chinese would want to buy defensive weapons quickly from the russians, to try and wound the american battle groups rather than trying to buy planes which take far longer to ship and receive.

Building SAM systems, especially those which require big, complex and expensive phased array radars takes years as well. The problem is even the uber S-400, of which not even one battalion exists, barely has the range to hit strike aircraft before they launch standoff weapons against it. And all missile systems have limited cross range capability so they really can't protect areas, just points. Good fighters are a better investment; the cost of an S-300 battalion will also buy you a regiment of high end MiG-29's. An S-400 battalion would likely buy the same number of Su-27's

[Sea Skimmer]

HA! That's rich. Just what could the Chinese do to Taiwan?

Nuke it is about the only thing that would really be effective.

[Vympel]

Building SAM systems, especially those which require big, complex and expensive phased array radars takes years as well. The problem is even the uber S-400, of which not even one battalion exists, barely has the range to hit strike aircraft before they launch standoff weapons against it. And all missile systems have limited cross range capability so they really can't protect areas, just points.

Provided they even have stand-off weapons to hit it with, and can target it. The S-300/S-400s are mobile, they're simply not going to be in the same place when the next targeting cycle comes along- if they even know where they are at all, mind you. Anti-radiation weapons are unfortunately not stand-off, and some fancy cross-range trick won't work because you'll have to know exactly where your opponent is before you try it.

Good fighters are a better investment; the cost of an S-300 battalion will also buy you a regiment of high end MiG-29's. An S-400 battalion would likely buy the same number of Su-27's

Life-cycle and maintenance costs probably even this out.

[Omega-13]

Provided they even have stand-off weapons to hit it with, and can target it. The S-300/S-400s are mobile, they're simply not going to be in the same place when the next targeting cycle comes along- if they even know where they are at all, mind you. Anti-radiation weapons are unfortunately not stand-off, and some fancy cross-range trick won't work because you'll have to know exactly where your opponent is before you try it.

This is assuming the chinese can use them aswell as the russians, but I woudln't want to be in any aircraft coming within 120 km off the coast of china if they have S-400's ready and waiting. Tomahawk cruise missles would also be shot down, but like I said, the chinese are 'trying' to get them.

Life-cycle and maintenance costs probably even this out.

I think monkey's could operate a SAM system, takes more to train a pilot,

[Vympel]

This is assuming the chinese can use them aswell as the russians but I woudln't want to be in any aircraft coming within 120 km off the coast of china if they have S-400's ready and waiting. Tomahawk cruise missles would also be shot down, but like I said, the chinese are 'trying' to get them.

I was just speaking generally- specifically, I doubt the Russians will give the Chinese S-400s.

I think monkey's could operate a SAM system, takes more to train a pilot,

SAM systems need to be maintained as well, but you're correct I was referring to training, and the maintenance costs on a fighter and the training costs of a pilot are far in excess. Not to mention the S-300 & S-400 SAMs incoprorate some cost saving measures (i.e. the missile is considered a round of ammunition and doesn't require any maintenance checks whatsoever for a 10 year period).

[Omega-13]

SAM systems need to be maintained as well, but you're correct I was referring to training, and the maintenance costs on a fighter and the training costs of a pilot are far in excess. Not to mention the S-300 & S-400 SAMs incoprorate some cost saving measures (i.e. the missile is considered a round of ammunition and doesn't require any maintenance checks whatsoever for a 10 year period).

knowing it was russian I'd expect the entire thing to be shipped with a tire iron, duck tape, and a 10 pound sledge hammer for maintenance.