Empire Evil or Rebels good at propaganda?

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2003-11-27 04:53am

Inspired by another thread regarding what Starfleet would be like after Conquest. Someone mentioned mass executions of Starfleet officers, and someone else responded that the Empire just wouldn't do that.

Now, taking the movies as the prime source with EU as supporting material can anyone point to me the true evil of the Empire? We did not see death camps nor did we see anything remotely close to true evil in the films. At best what we saw was a highly organized police state with a homicidal warlord at the reigns (Vader) Yet Vader spent all his screen time either killing rebels or executing his own men for incompetence. We did not see Vader kill millions on a whim or running Treblinka like death camps.

So my question is: what are the rebels all fired up about? Is it because the Republic was replaced by the Empire? So there was a regime change, a coup at best, but in the end, Palpatine seized power seemingly legally. He was given emergency powers to deal with the threats and never relinquished them. Sucks to be you if you're the senate handing over such power readily.

The rebel leadeship is comprised mostly of the disenfranchised elite, ex senators and military men who were not prospering as well under the Empire as under the Republic, kind of a selfish motive to start a rebellion against your government no?

What we do see in the films is a galaxy that is not divided into petty fiefdoms which allows one member world to initiate a blockade against another (TPM) or allows thousands of systems to effectively secede without a standing army for defense. We see Order and Peace. (Save for that pesky civil war) We don't have Tatooine and other rim worlds sort of running like Wild West frontier towns, the Empire reigned them in and I bet someone like Watoo takes Imperial credits now.

So can anyone point to the evils of the Empire that drove a rebellion to go to almost any length to tear it down? And does anyone know just how large the rebellion was?

*No I am not a fan of the Empire but I am acting as a devil's advocate here on an interesting question*

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2003-11-27 05:07am

The Empire created the Death Star, which blew up Alderaan. That's pretty evil.

Darth Vader killed people in cold blood (the Imperial officers in Death Squadon), tortured Leia and Han (just for the hell of it), and even dueled his son - twice. He also betrayed Lando, and ended up leaving a garrison at Cloud City. That's pretty evil, and although Darth wasn't the Empire, he was certainly one of the top commanders in it.

However, the Rebels also blew up the Death Star II, which ended up causing the endor holocaust. The Rebel's themselves aren't squeaky clean.

A thing I disagree about, the rebellion wasn't made up of just disenfranchised elite senators and military men. There were others too, like Biggs Darklighter, who came from Tatooine. Was Wedge a member of the privileged class? I do remember, somewhere, that Admiral Ozzel gained his rank solely based on his family's status. Another thing, who was the rebel alliance's top commander? Ackbar. His world and people were occupied by the Empire, I seem to recall.

The most likely scenario is that both sides had good propaganda. Also we don't see enough of either the empire or the rebels to declare one or the other is evil or good, respectively. However, given some of the empire's actions, they're not exactly saints (neither are the rebels, but they're a lot "better").

FTeik · Post by **FTeik** » 2003-11-27 05:33am

The Empire is "evil" on purpose.

The Rebellion/New Republic is "evil" because of incompetence, by accident, so to say. That is a lot worse.

2000AD · Post by **2000AD** » 2003-11-27 05:44am

I see it like this:

(damn this is hard to put down in words)

The Emperor himself is evil, as is his main henchman (Vader) and several of the higher ups (eg. Tarkin)
The Empire itself is not evil, but through it people may do evil things.
The whole purpose of the Empire was to bring order to the galaxy (although that didn't seem to be Plapy's principle goal), which it pretty much did. The problem is the means by which it did, ie. Palpy grabbing the reigns and abolishing the senate. The Rebellion was founded on the principal of restoring democracy, a good intention, hence while both sides did "evil things", the rebillion is seen as good because of it's leaders intentions. (restore democracy, as opposed to just wanting power)

Post by **Vympel** » 2003-11-27 06:03am

Alderaan was an evil act. That's all the evidence that's required to show that the Empire was an evil government. That doens't mean everyone in the Empire was evil though, and it's also demonstrably not true (e.g. Crix Madine).

Peregrin Toker · Post by **Peregrin Toker** » 2003-11-27 08:25am

Vympel wrote:Alderaan was an evil act. That's all the evidence that's required to show that the Empire was an evil government. That doens't mean everyone in the Empire was evil though, and it's also demonstrably not true (e.g. Crix Madine).

But keep in mind that the one who ordered the destruction of Alderaan was Grand Moff Tarkin, not the Emperor.

Bakravan · Post by **Bakravan** » 2003-11-27 09:22am

Simon H.Johansen wrote:
Vympel wrote:Alderaan was an evil act. That's all the evidence that's required to show that the Empire was an evil government. That doens't mean everyone in the Empire was evil though, and it's also demonstrably not true (e.g. Crix Madine).
But keep in mind that the one who ordered the destruction of Alderaan was Grand Moff Tarkin, not the Emperor.

Do you really think that Tarkin would have done something like that if he didn't fully expect the Emperor to approve? I'm thinking that exceeding your authority would be a good way to piss off Palpatine and get Vader on your ass.

Darth Garden Gnome · Post by **Darth Garden Gnome** » 2003-11-27 11:51am

Going by the EU, during its reign, the Empire:

Sent one of their number to release a bio-weapon onto Firrere and kill millions
Turned the Wookiees of Kashyyyk into a slave race and then allowed them to be hunted down and killed by the Trandoshans of a neighboring world
Had Crix Madine release the Candoran Plague onto a wolrd, killing 10 billion
Enslaved the people people of Amanin
Enslaved the people of Elom
Set up illegal mining operations on Cicarpous IV
Attempted to kill all the Oswaft through stavation
Lastly, kept the people of Honoghr enslaved through the guise of environmental assistance

And on top of that killed billions with the Death Star's attack on Alderaan. It's possible there's more examples like those above, but those are probably enough to make a point.

Crazedwraith · Post by **Crazedwraith** » 2003-11-27 12:15pm

Darth Garden Gnome wrote:Going by the EU, during its reign, the Empire:
[*]Engineered the destruction of Caamas, killed billions

That was done before the empire it the last days of the old republic.

Darth Garden Gnome · Post by **Darth Garden Gnome** » 2003-11-27 12:21pm

Ah, you are correct sir. My mistake. It has been removed.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-11-27 12:38pm

Darth Garden Gnome wrote:Going by the EU, during its reign, the Empire:
Sent one of their number to release a bio-weapon onto Firrere and kill millions

Turned the Wookiees of Kashyyyk into a slave race and then allowed them to be hunted down and killed by the Trandoshans of a neighboring world

Had Crix Madine release the Candoran Plague onto a wolrd, killing 10 billion

Enslaved the people people of Amanin

Enslaved the people of Elom

Set up illegal mining operations on Cicarpous IV

Attempted to kill all the Oswaft through stavation

Lastly, kept the people of Honoghr enslaved through the guise of environmental assistance
And on top of that killed billions with the Death Star's attack on Alderaan. It's possible there's more examples like those above, but those are probably enough to make a point.

A lot of this is sheer numbers. What you're saying is that the Empire was evil because they used WMDs against enemy targets during a war (remember the opening crawl of ANH: "It is a time of civil war"), used one race for slave labour, and used false promises of economic assistance to effectively enslave another race.

At the risk of being inflammatory, an awful lot of empires throughout history have done similar things, including the United States.

PS. The number of people killed during the chaos that erupted after the Rebel victory exceeded the number killed directly by the Empire.

Darth Garden Gnome · Post by **Darth Garden Gnome** » 2003-11-27 12:47pm

Darth Wong wrote:A lot of this is sheer numbers. What you're saying is that the Empire was evil because they used WMDs against enemy targets during a war (remember the opening crawl of ANH: "It is a time of civil war")

Firrerre was an innocent, primitive world that was destroyed to show Hetherir's "loyalty" to the Empire, for he too was from Firrerre. The Candoran Plague was released to quash a revolt, however.

At the risk of being inflammatory, an awful lot of empires throughout history have done similar things, including the United States.

Which does not make the act of having slaves any less immoral and evil.

PS. The number of people killed during the chaos that erupted after the Rebel victory exceeded the number killed directly by the Empire.

That is due to the stupidity of the leaders of the New Republic, and were not direct acts by them.

vakundok · Post by **vakundok** » 2003-11-27 01:02pm

The emperor based his power on the darkness of the occupants of the galaxy. (RotJ novelisation, when he meditated.) This suggests that he 'encouraged' the darker side of the inhabitants. I think it is evil.
We heard that the empire wanted to govern the galaxy through fear. We saw that slavery is at least accepted within the empire. In the ANH novelisation (prologue) we read that the rebellion actually started after many atrocities. (So, ther were atrocities before the civil war.)

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-11-27 01:06pm

The Dark Empire Sourcebook and The Dark Side Sourcebook clearly verify that the OT Empire was an interim phase, just as the Clone Wars militarized-Republic had been. Eventually, Palpatine would transform it into a total police state where an overclass of Dark Side Adepts would rule everything and love indefinitely, syphoning off the life force of the galactic population.

I think it was better that those died did, rather than allow them to become a mindless class of slaves existing at the whim and design of a bunch of sadistic overlords.

Darth Garden Gnome wrote:That is due to the stupidity of the leaders of the New Republic, and were not direct acts by them.

Actually it was Palpatine's fault. He intentionally designed a regime where it would collapse without him.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-11-27 01:19pm

PS. The number of people killed during the chaos that erupted after the Rebel victory exceeded the number killed directly by the Empire.

I know you're not familiar with the NJO, but add in the people killed during the Vong invasion, which was allowed to succeed due to NR incompetence, and that number becomes astronomical.

Publius · Post by **Publius** » 2003-11-27 01:22pm

Which does not make the act of having slaves any less immoral and evil.

That depends entirely on the form of slavery, don't you think? Roman-style slavery was effectually indentured servitude (except for the right of the owner to put a slave to death, which was generally not exercised), even to the point that the slave was paid for his or her labour and eventually manumitted and granted the full Roman citizenship. That is hardly immoral or evil; educated Greeks used to sell themselves into Roman slavery with the intention of improving the quality of their lives.

In the case of the Galactic Empire, it is important to point out that American-style slavery (to wit, that of the South) simply does not make economic sense. The one glimpse we have actually seen of slavery in Star Wars (the Skywalkers in The Phantom Menace) is generally speaking not terribly unpleasant; the Skywalkers were hardly living in oppressive poverty, and actually appeared to be quite comfortable, the indignity of being considered as property notwithstanding.

Does this justify the Empire's enslavement of various species (e.g., Wookiees, Mon Calamari)? No, it does not. As a matter of simple facts, it was a prejudiced policy, for whatever reason (mere bigotry is an insufficient explanation, for a number of reasons -- the Empire did not systematically disenfranchise and enslave all nonhuman species). Nevertheless, the institution of slavery is not evil in and of itself.

Darth Garden Gnome wrote:That is due to the stupidity of the leaders of the New Republic, and were not direct acts by them.

Being responsible for millions upon millions of deaths through gross negligence and equally gross incompetence is hardly better than being responsible through deliberate act. Those deaths are in direct consequence of the actions and policies of the New Republic, and the leadership of the New Republic bears full moral responsibility for them. In Catholic terminology, a sin of ommission can be just as grievous as a sin of commission.

As regards the Empire and "evil"....

The Empire is an unpleasant state. It is Draconian, authoritarian, and merciless. It enacts heavy taxes and strict laws, and punishes opposition harshly. These facts are not in dispute. However, the sum total of the evidence shows that the Empire was an effective system; the evidence points to the fact that the majority of Imperial citizens lived safe, orderly lives, and that the actual core of armed resistance to Imperial rule was miniscule. Furthermore, the majority of the Empire's efforts was directed toward maintaining order and peace between warring factions and substates within the galaxy.

Realistically, a state is not made "good" or "evil" by the principles upon which its government is based; democracy is no guarantee of justice. A state must be judged by its performance, most especially by how well it protects its citizenry. By this standard, that the New Republic is superior to the Galactic Empire is a highly debateable, questionable conclusion, the fact that the former is democratic and the latter monarchical and authoritarian notwithstanding.

PUBLIUS

zombie84 · Post by **zombie84** » 2003-11-27 01:24pm

EVIL!

Hitler only killed a few million people. The Empire blew up billions just for kicks.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-11-27 01:26pm

zombie84 wrote:Hitler only killed a few million people. The Empire blew up billions just for kicks.

The scale of the Galactic Empire is such that a brief food shortage or shipping blockade could easily kill billions in a matter of weeks. On the scale of the Galactic Empire, Alderaan is far smaller than Hiroshima.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-11-27 01:45pm

There was actually a poll on whether the Empire is evil or not here like, well over a year ago, which had a clear majority voting for the Empire not being evil. Scooter still uses it as proof of what a horrible bunch of amoralists the Wonghova Witnesses are.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-11-27 01:46pm

Also, Alderaan was probably a military target, if EU sources are to be believed.

CDiehl · Post by **CDiehl** » 2003-11-27 02:05pm

The Empire is not by any stretch of the imagination "good." Its individual members are probably very good people, wanting only the best for all, but that fact doesn't magically make the Empire a good thing. It is not about bringing about peace or order. The galaxy had them under the Republic, and Palpatine and his friends (such as the Trade Federation) had to ruin it so they could have power. Sure, the Republic wasn't perfect, but it beat the hell out of the neverending supply of war, death, hatred and poverty it would take to hold the Empire together. The Empire, like all empires, is about sowing everlasting war and chaos, in order to provide an everlasting justification for its existence. The Emperor created the circumstances that led to the Empire's founding, and has no vested interest in letting those circumstances end, ever. I would go so far as to say that he wants rebellions to happen. He wants whole worlds in rebellion against him, so he can build planet-busting weapons to wreck them. As soon as his designers can figure out a sector-busting weapon, he'll get a whole sector to rebel.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-11-27 02:21pm

CDiehl wrote:The Empire is not by any stretch of the imagination "good." Its individual members are probably very good people, wanting only the best for all, but that fact doesn't magically make the Empire a good thing. It is not about bringing about peace or order. The galaxy had them under the Republic, and Palpatine and his friends (such as the Trade Federation) had to ruin it so they could have power.

We're not arguing over whether Palpatine himself was evil. We're talking about the institution of the Empire as a whole. Remember that Darth Vader had his men kill any witnesses to his actions on Tatooine and cover it up by pretending they were sandpeople; he was obviously breaking Imperial law through his actions, which means that Imperial law did actually prohibit such things.

Sure, the Republic wasn't perfect, but it beat the hell out of the neverending supply of war, death, hatred and poverty it would take to hold the Empire together. The Empire, like all empires, is about sowing everlasting war and chaos, in order to provide an everlasting justification for its existence.

Nice axiomatic statement. Care to provide any evidence that war and chaos were necessary for the Empire to exist, as opposed to something the Rebels fomented?

The Emperor created the circumstances that led to the Empire's founding, and has no vested interest in letting those circumstances end, ever.

But they did end.

I would go so far as to say that he wants rebellions to happen. He wants whole worlds in rebellion against him, so he can build planet-busting weapons to wreck them. As soon as his designers can figure out a sector-busting weapon, he'll get a whole sector to rebel.

That is the dumbest thing I've read in a while. He wants rebellions against himself now? Puh-lease.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-11-27 02:36pm

Darth Wong wrote:That is the dumbest thing I've read in a while. He wants rebellions against himself now? Puh-lease.

Well, actually, it is supported by The Essential Guide to Characters. I can provide the exact quote if desired.

Like I said, the OT Empire was only an interim phase like everything else, and the Rebellion was pitifully insignificant and unimportant (until it destroyed the DS I) and at the time provided an excellent excuse for military build-up, disbanding the Imperial Senate, and declaring martial law.

Does anyone really think even if Palpatine had crushed the Rebellion at Endor, that the Senate would've been restored?

Typhonis 1 · Post by **Typhonis 1** » 2003-11-27 02:39pm

Yes Alderaan was about to erupt in open rebellion against the Empire so how was Palpatine to end it if Alderaans defenses were as strong as any othe Core world?

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-11-27 02:46pm

Illuminatus Primus wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:That is the dumbest thing I've read in a while. He wants rebellions against himself now? Puh-lease.
Well, actually, it is supported by The Essential Guide to Characters. I can provide the exact quote if desired.

Like I said, the OT Empire was only an interim phase like everything else, and the Rebellion was pitifully insignificant and unimportant (until it destroyed the DS I) and at the time provided an excellent excuse for military build-up, disbanding the Imperial Senate, and declaring martial law.

All of which is New Republic propaganda.

Does anyone really think even if Palpatine had crushed the Rebellion at Endor, that the Senate would've been restored?

No. So what? It was an Empire. That fact is not in dispute. What is in dispute is the presumption that it was necessarily an "evil" institution. This kind of dispute hinges on definitions of morality and can potentially get much deeper than it has, but quoting New Republic propaganda in order to prove that the "Evil Empire" perception was not the result of New Republic propaganda is circular reasoning.