Empire Evil or Rebels good at propaganda?

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-11-27 02:48pm

Typhonis 1 wrote:Yes Alderaan was about to erupt in open rebellion against the Empire so how was Palpatine to end it if Alderaans defenses were as strong as any othe Core world?

Alderaan was supplying funding to the enemy and was secretly building up its military while trying to maintain the appearance of neutrality during a civil war.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-11-27 02:52pm

Darth Wong wrote:
zombie84 wrote:Hitler only killed a few million people. The Empire blew up billions just for kicks.
The scale of the Galactic Empire is such that a brief food shortage or shipping blockade could easily kill billions in a matter of weeks. On the scale of the Galactic Empire, Alderaan is far smaller than Hiroshima.

Scale is irrelevent. Just because the Empire had enough people that it could afford to use WMDs to take out minor insurgent cells doesn't make what they did right. You cannot scale morality upwards like this. In the future smart weaponry and percision attacks should be used against enemies, not WMDs that will wipe out many more people.

What the Empire did was very evil and the system that Palpatine set up ensured further evil actions would continue after his death at an appalling rate.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-11-27 02:56pm

Darth Wong wrote:All of which is New Republic propaganda.

Bullshit. You need compelling reasons to glibly throw out at least three seperate sources, none of which is written as an in-universe document, and you have no direct contradiction in movie canon to provide such an excuse.

That's throwing out evidence.

Darth Wong wrote:No. So what? It was an Empire. That fact is not in dispute. What is in dispute is the presumption that it was necessarily an "evil" institution. This kind of dispute hinges on definitions of morality and can potentially get much deeper than it has, but quoting New Republic propaganda in order to prove that the "Evil Empire" perception was not the result of New Republic propaganda is circular reasoning.

You have to prove its New Republic propoganda. Since they're not written from an in-universe perspective, good luck.

The canon policy is quite explicit: everything is valid unless it outright contradicts a higher source. And there's no heap of apologetics for Palpatine in the OT.

Crazedwraith · Post by **Crazedwraith** » 2003-11-27 03:39pm

Durran Korr wrote:Also, Alderaan was probably a military target, if EU sources are to be believed.

Tarkin himself states other wise in the canon:
"you want another target? a military target? then name the system."

That implies Alderaan was not a military target.

Drooling Iguana · Post by **Drooling Iguana** » 2003-11-27 03:48pm

Crazedwraith wrote:
Durran Korr wrote:Also, Alderaan was probably a military target, if EU sources are to be believed.
Tarkin himself states other wise in the canon:
"you want another target? a military target? then name the system."

That implies Alderaan was not a military target.

Or that Tarkin was simply playing along in order to get Leia to reveal the location of a more important military target.

nightmare · Post by **nightmare** » 2003-11-27 04:22pm

I question the evil about blowing up Alderaan. What's the difference from bombing Köln or nuking Hiroshima? But if you agree that those acts - considered necessary at the time - was evil, then you have a case.

Sure, the Empire wasn't at war with Alderaan, but it was at civil war with the rebels. What's the difference from invading Afghanistan? That was also a regime supporting terrorists - and terrorists were indeed what they were considered. Keep in mind that freedom fighters are only those terrorists who won.

Is there anyone saying that it was evil of the reborn Emperor to attack Mon Calamari (or whatever the original name was for their homeworld, I can't remember it) during Dark Empire? A planet which had supported the rebels strongly in the past, even supplying their main warships. Personally, I would have blown it to hell long before that.

Yes, there was civilans on both planets that had nothing directly to do with the war. But consider this; during the cold war, thousands of americans and other westerners were in Soviet at any given time, and vice versa. Would this fact alone have prevented a nuclear strike? I think not.

In summary, war is about winners, not morals.. now, I don't doubt that the Empire was intended to be "evil" in a fairy tale sense, but when it comes to governments, there are none that haven't committed evil acts.. the only governments we consider truly evil in the real world are the nazis under Hitler, the communist party under Stalin, the red khmers, Idi Amin and a few others.. all of which have in common that they have slaughtered a large part of their own population, mainly for ideological reasons, secondary for econimical ones. Basically, internal evil is the only true evil in politics..

The instance when a very lethal virus spread over the Falleen homeworld very quickly is for me the quintessence of the Empire. Vader ordered a turbolaser bombardment to stop it, since all other attempts had failed. Millions died and the virus was stopped. Brutal? Yes. Ruthless? Yes. Effective? Very. However evil it may seem, it was the right thing to do. If it had happened under the NR, it's a fair bet that the entire population would have died before they could decide to do anything, and they would only have done something about it once it began to spread to other planets.

Short synopsis for those who think I got long-winded and boring: Palpatine was evil. Vader was evil. Tarkin was evil. But was Piett evil? Moff Jerrjerrod? Every officer? Every stormtrooper? I don't think so.

zombie84 · Post by **zombie84** » 2003-11-27 04:55pm

It doesnt matter what the preportion of Alderan was to the scale of the Empire--the instant death of untold billions just to demonstrate a point from Tarkin is appallingly and unquestionably evil, and the very act, no matter the motivation, effect or cause, is inexcusable.

In a film the bad guy usually kills a good guy or an innocent guy in order to demonstrate to the audience that they are bad--here we have the Empire blow up a fucking planet!! Its almost overkill, but i guess not...

Add to the fact that Alderaan was a peaceful planet--"Alderaan is peaceful, we have no weapons". It was not a military target, as Tarkin confirms--"then give us a rebel target or a military target [paraphrasing]".

Also consider that the Empire itself is a fascist regime who wiped out the entire jedi knights, while ruling the galaxy with an iron fist, and is responsible for the destruction of the entire planet of Alderaan.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-11-27 05:01pm

Illuminatus Primus wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:All of which is New Republic propaganda.
Bullshit. You need compelling reasons to glibly throw out at least three seperate sources, none of which is written as an in-universe document, and you have no direct contradiction in movie canon to provide such an excuse.

That's throwing out evidence.

No, that's throwing out interpretation. Literary sources are treated as a written history, not as direct observation. And everything which is canon or quasi-canon is written in-universe.

You have to prove its New Republic propoganda. Since they're not written from an in-universe perspective, good luck.

Bullshit. Those sources write about the Empire as if the events really took place, therefore they're obviously written in-universe.

The canon policy is quite explicit: everything is valid unless it outright contradicts a higher source. And there's no heap of apologetics for Palpatine in the OT.

Ah, so in real life, a history book is treated as direct evidence rather than an interpretation thereof. Ergo, it is impossible for it to be biased or propagandistic. Gotcha

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-11-27 05:42pm

Darth Wong wrote:No, that's throwing out interpretation. Literary sources are treated as a written history, not as direct observation. And everything which is canon or quasi-canon is written in-universe.

Conceded that the assumption on literary sources is that they're in-universe history.

However, you can prove their biases one way or another how? And if the canon of a given universe is literary?

And I add that your analogy of direct-observation vs. written history is an analogy of the canon-official heirarchy, and is no where stated.

Since no canon source in anyway contradicts or conflicts with the claim that Palpatine was grooming Dark Side Adepts to replace the Moffs and Admirals, I don't see any reason to discard it.

Darth Wong wrote:Bullshit. Those sources write about the Empire as if the events really took place, therefore they're obviously written in-universe.

Going from "written history" and "in-universe sources" to outright throwing away evidence and assuming that its a New Republic propoganda rag is not fair. You have no contradiction-with-canon that necessitates that they be discarded out-right for a pure-canon perspective.

There is nothing to compare the claims of three seperate official sources with in canon that invalidates them in any way whatsoever.

Darth Wong wrote:Ah, so in real life, a history book is treated as direct evidence rather than an interpretation thereof. Ergo, it is impossible for it to be biased or propagandistic. Gotcha

Your analogies for the canon-official heirarchy of course notwithstanding, it is a fact of canon policy that the Expanded Universe is canon and legitimate part of the Star Wars Saga insofar that it does not contradict the intent of the movies and other canon.

Moreover, one does not assume an account is inaccurate without other data showing a drastically different trend to which the evidence in question is an anomaly. However, since that trend does not exist, and three seperate sources all of unknown authorship agree, the logical assumption without other evidence to show inaccuracy or bias is that they are, in fact, accurate. Nothing in the films directly addresses the claims made by these official sources.

Official sources are treated as the most valid available source for a given subject unless a canon source intrudes. Where, praytell, are we given alternatives to Palpatine's philosophies, the purpose of his Dark Side Adepts and military projects in the Deep Core, and his desire to declare martial law and the Rebellion merely providing an excuse.

Nowhere in the movies is Palpatine said to not welcome the Rebellion as an excuse for his projects and the abolition of the Senate.

Furthermore, the official proclaimation of the Senate in recess until the end of the Rebellion vs. Grand Moff Governor Tarkin's private enthusiasm of the permanent abolition of the council only reinforces that the Imperial elite were looking for excuses to further erode the Old Republic from the New Order.

Since some Sourcebooks are written from Imperial perspectives, regardless of them being in-universe sources, there is no author in-universe associated with either The Essential Guide to Characters, The Dark Side Sourcebook, and The Dark Empire Sourcebook. The burden of proof exists on you to justify assumptions of authorship and that their accounts are inaccurate without other data to the contrary.

Lord Pounder · Post by **Lord Pounder** » 2003-11-27 06:02pm

Sure the Emperor and Vader where evil, as was Tarkin IMHO. However many of the people supporting the Empire wheren't. In the EU we get the impressions of many of the Admirals still alive. Most of them say they backed the empire because it represented order, and to a degree justice. It takes more than 10,00 Jedi and a few Dreadnaughts to keep order.

consequences · Post by **consequences** » 2003-11-27 07:46pm

You know, the NR's deployment of Alpha Red completely removes any moral high ground they might have deluded themselves into believing they possessed. Either they comitted a willful act of genocide, which would have slaughtered countless YV who did not support the war, or the deaths of those YV were acceptable morally. Either way, the same argument applies to the destruction of Alderaan, which means the Empire and the NR are on exactly the same moral level.

Which means that all we have o go by is results:

The Empire killed billions of sentients, and oppressed many more(Mon Calamari and Wookies among them)

The NR, by its actions and inactions, almost certainly caused the deaths of trillions of sentients, and tacitly allowed the oppression of entire species groups(at the very least, the Ryn).

Both enslaved billions if not trillions of sentients without a second thought(I'll give you one guess).

Publius · Post by **Publius** » 2003-11-27 08:38pm

consequences wrote:Both enslaved billions if not trillions of sentients without a second thought(I'll give you one guess).

Surely you cannot mean to suggest that 'droids have rights.

PUBLIUS

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-11-27 08:45pm

consequences wrote:You know, the NR's deployment of Alpha Red completely removes any moral high ground they might have deluded themselves into believing they possessed. Either they comitted a willful act of genocide, which would have slaughtered countless YV who did not support the war, or the deaths of those YV were acceptable morally. Either way, the same argument applies to the destruction of Alderaan, which means the Empire and the NR are on exactly the same moral level.

Which means that all we have o go by is results:

The Empire killed billions of sentients, and oppressed many more(Mon Calamari and Wookies among them)

The NR, by its actions and inactions, almost certainly caused the deaths of trillions of sentients, and tacitly allowed the oppression of entire species groups(at the very least, the Ryn).

Both enslaved billions if not trillions of sentients without a second thought(I'll give you one guess).

The two are slightly different situations. The NR was faced with total extermination by an agressive enemy. The Empire was not faced with total extermination and it was its practice of using such evil weapon systems and practices that instigated its civil war to begin with.

consequences · Post by **consequences** » 2003-11-27 08:52pm

Bingo! Publius got it in one. And as a counter argument, used in its day by proponents of slavery 'Surely you can't mean to say that members of the Negro race should be considered human'.

Yes, the situations are slightly different, but only slightly. The similarity lies in the fact that the NR did not need to launch Alpha Red to achieve victory.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-11-27 09:00pm

consequences wrote:Bingo! Publius got it in one. And as a counter argument, used in its day by proponents of slavery 'Surely you can't mean to say that members of the Negro race should be considered human'.

Yes, the situations are slightly different, but only slightly. The similarity lies in the fact that the NR did not need to launch Alpha Red to achieve victory.

Did they know that at the time? And would not launching it kill MORE NR citizens? While morality is good and all, a government is ultimately more concerned with the citizens of its own nation over the citizens of another. There is a point where the rights of the other citizens weighs more, but that is a much larger number of "them" compared to "us".

consequences · Post by **consequences** » 2003-11-27 09:12pm

But by that argument, haven't the citizens of Alderaan declared themselves as not being citizens of the Empire by their refusal to act against their leaders?

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-11-27 09:29pm

consequences wrote:But by that argument, haven't the citizens of Alderaan declared themselves as not being citizens of the Empire by their refusal to act against their leaders?

The FEW citizens of Alderaan who have taken up arms against the Empire does not warrant complete annihilation of the planet and it ignores the fact that it is the direct actions of the Emporer who caused them to take up arms in the first place.

Using your line of reasoning we can MOAB an entire city block today because a few anti-government nuts live there.

consequences · Post by **consequences** » 2003-11-27 10:02pm

Not quite the same situation. Bail Organa was one of the cosigners of the Corellian Treaty, and a key figure in the Rebellion. His daughter was heavily involved in rebel operations, as was at least one noblewoman that we know about. The likelihood that this could have been kept a secret from the Alderaanian population at large, especially when the Rebel Alliance has been referenced as patterning its style of uniform of that of Alderaan's former military is very slim.

In any case, what is the ratio of population of willing YV warriors to those that they have enslaved? Are you trying to claim that expedience is an excuse for genocide? If so, where can you draw the line? At what percentage of active enemies does wholesale slaughter of noncombatants become acceptable? How many of your own citizens lives have to be on the line for genocide to go from unthinkable to cost-effective?

CDiehl · Post by **CDiehl** » 2003-11-27 11:20pm

Is the Empire evil? Yes. It exists for an evil purpose, to brutalize and frighten a galaxy full of people to enrich a few. If that is not evil, what is?

As for the Emperor creating the circumstances that led to the Empire, the events of Episodes 1 and 2 were brought about through the machinations of Darth Sidious, who bears a striking resemblance to Palpatine after he became Emperor. The debacle of the Trade Federation resulted in Palpatine becoming Chancellor. The events of Attack of the Clones are all too fortuitous for Palpatine to just be dumb luck. They all just happen to make him a military strongman. Even if Sidious and Palpatine are not one and the same, they are similar enough that they could be in cahoots.

Finally, about the idea of the Emperor wanting chaos and war, why is that inconceivable? Chaos and war give dictators a justification for their power. Without an enemy against which to direct people's emotions, they'll notice how lousy their lives are under a dictatorship, and why. The Emperor would not want the entire galaxy to rebel, but a small rebellion in an isolated region now and again, put to an end in a spectacular display like a BDZ or a shot from the Death Star, makes a great example to others.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-11-27 11:39pm

Okay, we're supposed to believe a guy who starts a war across the Galaxy for his own purposes, manipulates arts both corrupt and destructive, and draws power from the suffering and hatred of others is not evil? Whether the Empire improved the Galactic civilization or not is a good question(That would require we imagine every local governer in the Empire to be evil; a ridiculous cariacture.), but the Emperor not evil? Come on.

Publius · Post by **Publius** » 2003-11-28 12:31am

consequences wrote:Bingo! Publius got it in one. And as a counter argument, used in its day by proponents of slavery 'Surely you can't mean to say that members of the Negro race should be considered human'.

The situations are not remotely comparable, sir. The Negro slaves and their white masters were all members of the same species, Homo sapiens sapiens. That the Negro slaves were objectively, empirically, and demonstrably members of the same species and therefore entitled to the same Constitutional rights as the white masters is a matter of facts and evidence.

'droids, on the other hand, are machines. That many are complicated machines with sophisticated artificial intelligence changes the fact that they are machines not one iota. Machines are not members of the same species as their owners; machines have no function other than to perform the functions they were designed to perform -- to wit, machines quite literally are made for use. To compare the South's "peculiar institution" to the use of machines is an untenable argument.

PUBLIUS

Lord of the Farce · Post by **Lord of the Farce** » 2003-11-28 12:45am

An interesting thing to note is that the Rebel Alliance/New Republic never seemed to have any problems turning a blind eye - if not outright endorsing - terrorists like Elscol Loro, whose difference to Tarkin's indifference to neutral parties is [only] a matter of scale. Hell, one can even make an arguement that people like Garik Loran joining the RA/NR is a result of brain-washing at the hands of Alliance personnel.

Lord of the Farce · Post by **Lord of the Farce** » 2003-11-28 01:02am

Publius wrote:'droids, on the other hand, are machines. That many are complicated machines with sophisticated artificial intelligence changes the fact that they are machines not one iota. Machines are not members of the same species as their owners; machines have no function other than to perform the functions they were designed to perform -- to wit, machines quite literally are made for use. To compare the South's "peculiar institution" to the use of machines is an untenable argument.

That doesn't seem much different to Imperial anti-slavery laws, which apparently states that "if a species is not classified as sapient, then forcing them to work against their will is not slavery, but domestication".

Another problems is that - supposedly - according to the Alliance pamphlet "A Call to Reason", the Empire "conducts droid abuse", and that "regular memory wipes are a criminal act".

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2003-11-28 01:58am

Those who keep pointing out that the Empire itself is not evil are correct (the Empire is an intsitution, not a person.) I woudl also point out that if youa re going to judge the empire by the actions of those who are evil, one could also judge it based off those people it produces who are NOT evil (former Imperial officers/soldiers who defect to the Alliance) One could also point to the "Imperial Remnant" that arises out of the old Empire based on its ideals and say that it is not inherently evil.

For that matter, its not like the New Republic has not had bad guys arising from its ranks, either (or people who willingly assisted those who were.) so its hardly perfect. (Same with the government that supplanted the Republic after Coruscant fell - does the phrase "Alpha Red" mean anything to you?)

Insofar as pointing to the destruction of Alderaan, I would simply point ot the Endor Holocaust as a counter-example. Or Honoghr.

Publius · Post by **Publius** » 2003-11-28 02:03am

Lord of the Farce wrote:That doesn't seem much different to Imperial anti-slavery laws, which apparently states that "if a species is not classified as sapient, then forcing them to work against their will is not slavery, but domestication".

Compelling a nonsapient animal to do labour is one of the chief purposes of domestication. It is one of the privileges afforded those species which achieve sapience, and one of the misfortunes that befall those which do not. If the use of automata is essentially little different from domestication of animals, then that is because there is relatively little essential difference between using oxen to plough a field and using a tractor to do the same.

Lord of the Farce wrote:Another problems is that - supposedly - according to the Alliance pamphlet "A Call to Reason", the Empire "conducts droid abuse", and that "regular memory wipes are a criminal act".

"A Call to Reason" is a propaganda document, whose primary function is to encourage support for the rebel Alliance. It will naturally present the Galactic Empire in as bad a light as is possible, and "'droid abuse" is a particularly good example of that. This is such an insignificant charge as to be laughable: enumerated amongst the Empire's miscarriages of justice is the abuse of mechanical constructs. Likewise, its claims about memory wipes are highly insubstantial; a terrorist organisation whose stated purpose is to destroy the legitimate government of the galaxy by any means necessary (including assassination and raising revenue by gunrunning) is hardly a credible source for commentary on legality.

PUBLIUS