What would happen if the Yuuzhan Vong invaded Star Trek?

[Praxis]

After a bunch of dramatic dialogue, Kor takes one of the BOP's and attacks the Jem'Hadar (btw- he has to drop out of warp to turn around...I've gotta remember that for ST vs SW arguements ), and just as his ship reaches the Jem'Hadar fleet at warp, he has his ship generate a graviton pulse.

We've seen the USS Phoenix turn while in warp without having to drop out. Which means either;

1 - Klingon warp technology is not as advanced as Federation

2 - Using the pulse is not advisable at warp speeds

3 - Kor wanted to decrease the amount of time before intercept.

Yet in Voyager both Janeway and Tom Paris stated that you can't turn at warp (quote is somewhere in Stardestroyer.net). So by that, the USS Pheonix has superior warp technology to Voyager.

Also, the ship dropped out of warp to turn, then jumped BACK to warp, THEN engaged the pulse while AT warp.

#3 might be possible- maybe you turn slowly at warp.

You know, the Vong's reliance on gravity might be a huge advantage vs ST ships, if graviton pulses can disable their warp drives...that means no one can run...and cloaking devices won't work since they're still effected by gravity and the Vong use gravitic sensors.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Species 8472 are cowards. They went around blowing up planets, but as soon as Voyager came by and killed HALF A DOZEN of them they got afraid and ran with their tail between their legs back to fluidic space.

Yeah they can be considered cowards. However, what do you think would happen if say an X-Wing blew up a SSD with one shot?

Irrelevant analogy. A Species 8472 bioship has a crew of just one pilot. It's a one-man fighter, and is hardly equivalent to a capital ship carrying hundreds of thousands of people.

Very well, I withdraw that statement.

Basically what happened is an ant became a lion.

Basically what happened is that one ant was killed by another ant, and all of his buddies ran away screaming. They could have easily killed Voyager, but they were too gutless to even try.

I feel it's a bit more serious than that. We're talking about a ship that wasn't remotely a threat suddenly starting to kill them by the handfuls.

Though, you are right they should have tried to kill Voyager.

[Praxis]

When you consider that they had just killed hundreds of cubes and planets, amounting to THOUSANDS or even MILLIONS of Borg drones, and then Voyager comes along and kills SIX of them, and they run for their lives...it makes them look pretty bad

[Kamakazie Sith]

I don't really know what I'm arguing this. They obviously did get really scared.....at the most there should have been confusion and then Voyager blow to atoms.

[Metrion Cascade]

Yet in Voyager both Janeway and Tom Paris stated that you can't turn at warp (quote is somewhere in Stardestroyer.net). So by that, the USS Pheonix has superior warp technology to Voyager.

A statement which is irreconcilable with many other episodes of Voyager where they did just that. Saying the ship can't turn at warp is about as consistent with the rest of the show as Tuvok walking onto the bridge in a Stormtrooper outfit and calling Voyager the Death Star.

[Joe Momma]

Yet in Voyager both Janeway and Tom Paris stated that you can't turn at warp (quote is somewhere in Stardestroyer.net). So by that, the USS Pheonix has superior warp technology to Voyager.

A statement which is irreconcilable with many other episodes of Voyager where they did just that. Saying the ship can't turn at warp is about as consistent with the rest of the show as Tuvok walking onto the bridge in a Stormtrooper outfit and calling Voyager the Death Star.

IIRC, Paris quoted the academy saying, "Faster than light, no left or right," but then went on to explain that turning was possible, but it strained the hull so it was safer to drop out of warp to make course corrections (though not essential).

-- Joe Momma

[Metrion Cascade]

Yet in Voyager both Janeway and Tom Paris stated that you can't turn at warp (quote is somewhere in Stardestroyer.net). So by that, the USS Pheonix has superior warp technology to Voyager.

A statement which is irreconcilable with many other episodes of Voyager where they did just that. Saying the ship can't turn at warp is about as consistent with the rest of the show as Tuvok walking onto the bridge in a Stormtrooper outfit and calling Voyager the Death Star.

IIRC, Paris quoted the academy saying, "Faster than light, no left or right," but then went on to explain that turning was possible, but it strained the hull so it was safer to drop out of warp to make course corrections (though not essential).

-- Joe Momma

But there are no shortage of episodes where the ship did turn at warp as a matter of routine.

[Solauren]

It's also possible that "no left or right" was an academy rule for novice pilots. Turning at FTL velocities would not be an easy thing to do with any accuracy

[The Kernel]

Mike already did a page on this actually. The main page seems to be down at the moment so I can't get a link, but the gist of it was that although Feddie ships CAN turn at warp, it is in their best interests not to.

The theory proposed is that it causes undue stress on the hull, which would be especially bad for a starship that was away from starbase (Voyager for example). Workable in an emergency, but not something one would want to regularly do.

Also, the shot of the Phoenix was from the viewscreen of the Enterprise and was a fairly fast turn of at least 45 degrees (I'm going from memory here, but I saw this episode a few weeks ago so I'm remember it quite well).

[GrandMasterTerwynn]

Ehhh, what'd the Federation ever do to you to deserve a fate so horrible? As I've read before, clubbing a chained baby seal would be more sporting. The Vong have vessels that can withstand multi-gigaton weaponry. The Federation, using the most optimistic of calculations, cannot win against a Star Wars power. Thus, the Federation gets its ass handed to it.

[Kuroneko]

Problem is 'Vong Dovin Basal singularities' are EXTREMELY localaized, as in less then a meter in diameter, with no noticable effect beyond that accept in large numbers.

I don't get it. If they have meaningful size, they aren't naked singularities. Therefore, they should have mass greater than Earth's in order to have diameter of more than about a centimetre or more. That's a lot of mass.

[Coalition]

The Federation and all of the ST universe has one chance. Their phasers use the NDF principle, causing chain reactions.

As the Vong use organic technology, would the phasers be able to chain-react through their ships, if they could reach the organic core in them? Of course, this requires someone willing to perform genocide (Jellico w/ Section 31) as a matter of routine operation.

If the eds don't have NDF though, then the STverse is doomed. Not just the Vong heavy armor and weaponry, but also Nom Anor doing his stuff, and stirring up trouble everywhere. So you have Fed fleet elements going all over their territory, trying to put out brushfires everywhere.

Hey, in a fanfic, Nom could have been the guy who triggered the Dominion War. At the end of season 1 in DS9, the Dominion said that if another ship entered the wormhole, they would treat it as an act of war. Beginning of season 2, ships were going through regularly.

Result of the Dominion war, lots of ships destroyed, economies in ruins, and lots of room for rebellions to start up, putting a greater strain on the limited resources.

Exactly what the Vong need.

[Darth Wong]

Problem is 'Vong Dovin Basal singularities' are EXTREMELY localaized, as in less then a meter in diameter, with no noticable effect beyond that accept in large numbers.

I don't get it. If they have meaningful size, they aren't naked singularities. Therefore, they should have mass greater than Earth's in order to have diameter of more than about a centimetre or more. That's a lot of mass.

They're obviously not really singularities. Just another irritating sci-fi author's brainbug.

[Kuroneko]

They're obviously not really singularities. Just another irritating sci-fi author's brainbug.

Ah. It seems that was too optimistic on my part.

[Praxis]

Problem is 'Vong Dovin Basal singularities' are EXTREMELY localaized, as in less then a meter in diameter, with no noticable effect beyond that accept in large numbers.

I don't get it. If they have meaningful size, they aren't naked singularities. Therefore, they should have mass greater than Earth's in order to have diameter of more than about a centimetre or more. That's a lot of mass.

Dovin Basals manipulate gravity, to create a mini black hole that sucks in weapons fire. Actually if i remember right, I believe one book said that the actual event horizon was the size of a pinhead, but the gravity from that was strong enough to suck in almost anything within a couple meters and 'bend' anything just outside. The larger Dovin Basals can make larger singularities.

For example, when an X-wing would just brush the danger zone of a dovin basal, it would curve like liquid as it got sucked into the center and disappeared. That suggests that, as said above, the event horizon is tiny, but the area affected by the gravity is really really big.

[Ender]

The Federation and all of the ST universe has one chance. Their phasers use the NDF principle, causing chain reactions.

As the Vong use organic technology, would the phasers be able to chain-react through their ships, if they could reach the organic core in them? Of course, this requires someone willing to perform genocide (Jellico w/ Section 31) as a matter of routine operation.

And them getting through tens of meters of extremely dense, energy dispersing yorrik coral. This isn't the typical limestone stuff and they aren't fleshy ships you know.

[Kuroneko]

Dovin Basals manipulate gravity, to create a mini black hole that sucks in weapons fire. Actually if i remember right, I believe one book said that the actual event horizon was the size of a pinhead, but the gravity from that was strong enough to suck in almost anything within a couple meters and 'bend' anything just outside. The larger Dovin Basals can make larger singularities.

Assume the event horizon diameter is 1.0mm (it's actually a rather small pinhead). The corresponding singularity mass is therefore 3.4e23kg. The X-Wing will start experiencing 1G or above acceleration towards the singularity at over 1500km away. This kind of thing is rather noticable. At best, it will be a suprise for the initial engagement, but it can easily be measured and compensated for. So what if the singularity bends the trajectory of the weapons fire? It just means that one should fire to the sides, in such a way so that the singularity will adjust the trajectory to hit the ship. Overall, it seems a very poor defensive idea. At best, it would be a suprise trump card for the initial engagement, but nearly useless against an enemy who knows about it.

And that's even besides limiting the gravitational effects so that it would not adversely affect the ship itself.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

If they have enough of them and shift them to the correct locations fast enough, they could work. Pinpoint barriers that are agile enough to reliably stop enemy hits in principle might use less energy than a full blown all-covering shield.

[Darth Wong]

No, they would not work. Do you think the energy that sinks into a black hole simply disappears? It gets added to the mass of the black hole, and a low-mass singularity will spontaneously explode in a burst of gamma rays unless it is somehow being sustained by some magical field which causes it to ignore quantum-mechanics and thermodynamics. What happens when the basals make the little black holes go away? The extra energy just vanishes?

[Praxis]

If they have enough of them and shift them to the correct locations fast enough, they could work. Pinpoint barriers that are agile enough to reliably stop enemy hits in principle might use less energy than a full blown all-covering shield.

The event horizon is supposed to be pinpoint size, however its gravity is strong enough to suck everything (including torpedoes and TL's) that gets within a meter into the eveny horizon.

No, they would not work. Do you think the energy that sinks into a black hole simply disappears? It gets added to the mass of the black hole, and a low-mass singularity will spontaneously explode in a burst of gamma rays unless it is somehow being sustained by some magical field which causes it to ignore quantum-mechanics and thermodynamics. What happens when the basals make the little black holes go away? The extra energy just vanishes?

Good point. Hadn't thought about that.
However there is at least two references that I've seen to the Dovin Basals being able to manipulate both time and space and gravity...(not to the effect of time travel, but warping time and space in a limited area.) Do you think that could affect it?

Assume the event horizon diameter is 1.0mm (it's actually a rather small pinhead). The corresponding singularity mass is therefore 3.4e23kg. The X-Wing will start experiencing 1G or above acceleration towards the singularity at over 1500km away. This kind of thing is rather noticable. At best, it will be a suprise for the initial engagement, but it can easily be measured and compensated for. So what if the singularity bends the trajectory of the weapons fire? It just means that one should fire to the sides, in such a way so that the singularity will adjust the trajectory to hit the ship. Overall, it seems a very poor defensive idea. At best, it would be a suprise trump card for the initial engagement, but nearly useless against an enemy who knows about it.

This could be effected as well by my above statement in this post- if the Dovin Basals can manipulate time and space to confine the gravitic anomaly to a hard disk, that would be the 'void'...you'd have a shield.

BTW what you said about firing to the side...if the weapons go within a few meters of the event horizon, they should be sucked right up, correct?
A Dovin Basal itself isn't much use except as a suprise, but when you have a warship with a hundred of them, with each dovin basal using mini black holes to suck up turbolaser fire, THEN they're a problem

[Kuroneko]

The event horizon is supposed to be pinpoint size, however its gravity is strong enough to suck everything (including torpedoes and TL's) that gets within a meter into the eveny horizon.

That's contradictory. You're only guaranteed to suck in everything if it comes within the event horizon of the singularity. That's practically the very definition of the event horizon.

It gets added to the mass of the black hole, and a low-mass singularity will spontaneously explode in a burst of gamma rays ... . What happens when the basals make the little black holes go away? The extra energy just vanishes?

Good point. Hadn't thought about that.

That's actually not that much of a problem for singularities massive enough to be compared to a pinhead in size. The Hawking temperature is T = hκ/(4π²k), where h is Planck's constant, κ = GM/r² is the surface gravity, and k is the Boltzmann constant [ref]. Combining it with the Stefan-Boltzmann law (with σ = 2π⁵k⁴/(15h³c²)), this gives the radiation flux of the black hole as F = c²h/(7680π²r²). If the event horizon is 1.0mm in diameter, then it will radiate a meagre 3.1fW. It is extremely stable; if you want to get rid of it, just dump it somewhere.

The really tough part is creating them, moving them fast enough to be useful as a defense, and, of course, keeping them from crushing you.

Assume the event horizon diameter is 1.0mm (it's actually a rather small pinhead). The corresponding singularity mass is therefore 3.4e23kg. ... So what if the singularity bends the trajectory of the weapons fire? It just means that one should fire to the sides, in such a way so that the singularity will adjust the trajectory to hit the ship.

This could be effected as well by my above statement in this post- if the Dovin Basals can manipulate time and space to confine the gravitic anomaly to a hard disk, that would be the 'void'...you'd have a shield.

In other words, their antigravity devices now have to constantly contain their effect? Like, say, the nine billion G's of gravitational acceleration at a distance of 50m from the singularity? Instead of dumping all that energy into antigravity containment, why not just get stronger shields?

BTW what you said about firing to the side...if the weapons go within a few meters of the event horizon, they should be sucked right up, correct?

No. The trajectories of everything will be bent toward the singularity. Whether they will fall in or not depends on the velocity of the projectile. Simply coming within a few metres will not guarantee that the singularity will swallow the projectile if it is fast enough (obviously, the best solution would be lasers).

[Praxis]

That's contradictory. You're only guaranteed to suck in everything if it comes within the event horizon of the singularity. That's practically the very definition of the event horizon.

I meant almost everything that was slower than light. Such as torpedoes, phasers, turbolasers, and stray X-wings.

In other words, their antigravity devices now have to constantly contain their effect? Like, say, the nine billion G's of gravitational acceleration at a distance of 50m from the singularity? Instead of dumping all that energy into antigravity containment, why not just get stronger shields?

We're talking about organic technology here...
And if they can manipulate space and time, why not just slow down time in the singularity to reduce the G's until the moment you're ready to suck in a shot?

No. The trajectories of everything will be bent toward the singularity. Whether they will fall in or not depends on the velocity of the projectile. Simply coming within a few metres will not guarantee that the singularity will swallow the projectile if it is fast enough (obviously, the best solution would be lasers).

Again, I was talking about slower than light objects. Any torpedo or turbolaser or weapon like that would get sucked in, correct?

Lasers would work, but laser emitters are rather fragile, aren't they? We're talking about a race that hurls plasma blasts around for fun.

[Kuroneko]

That's contradictory. You're only guaranteed to suck in everything if it comes within the event horizon of the singularity. That's practically the very definition of the event horizon.

I meant almost everything that was slower than light. Such as torpedoes, phasers, turbolasers, and stray X-wings.

Pretty much so. But there are a few caveats.

In other words, their antigravity devices now have to constantly contain their effect? Like, say, the nine billion G's of gravitational acceleration at a distance of 50m from the singularity? Instead of dumping all that energy into antigravity containment, why not just get stronger shields?

We're talking about organic technology here...

It doesn't matter how they do it. Unless they can wantonly violate the laws of physics, it will still take enormous amounts of energy to affect spacetime in such a fashion.

And if they can manipulate space and time, why not just slow down time in the singularity to reduce the G's until the moment you're ready to suck in a shot?

Because that would require the assumption that they can change the laws of physics to match their whims. On the other hand, if we keep the laws of physics as they are, all they would need is enormous energy levels--not very realistic, but not impossible.

No. The trajectories of everything will be bent toward the singularity. Whether they will fall in or not depends on the velocity of the projectile. Simply coming within a few metres will not guarantee that the singularity will swallow the projectile if it is fast enough (obviously, the best solution would be lasers).

Again, I was talking about slower than light objects. Any torpedo or turbolaser or weapon like that would get sucked in, correct?

Only if it is close enough. Why won't their enemy simply launch the torpedo even farther away to the side? You're still thinking "coming within a such-and-such distance = guaranteed interception", when in fact it is not the case. The singularity does suck in things, but outside the event-horizon it is not all-powerful.

Diagram, not to scale:

Code: Select all

No singularity: 
    \<---- torpedo
 Ship| 
    /   Torpedo hits.


Singularity:
    \     _-- torpedo
 Ship| *<-
    /   Singularity intercepts.


Side torpedo:
          __---torpedo
  __   _-- 
    \<-    Torpedo would have missed,
 Ship| *    but singularity adjusts trajectory
  __/       for a hit.

[Metrion Cascade]

That's contradictory. You're only guaranteed to suck in everything if it comes within the event horizon of the singularity. That's practically the very definition of the event horizon.

I meant almost everything that was slower than light. Such as torpedoes, phasers, turbolasers, and stray X-wings.

In other words, their antigravity devices now have to constantly contain their effect? Like, say, the nine billion G's of gravitational acceleration at a distance of 50m from the singularity? Instead of dumping all that energy into antigravity containment, why not just get stronger shields?

We're talking about organic technology here...
And if they can manipulate space and time, why not just slow down time in the singularity to reduce the G's until the moment you're ready to suck in a shot?

No. The trajectories of everything will be bent toward the singularity. Whether they will fall in or not depends on the velocity of the projectile. Simply coming within a few metres will not guarantee that the singularity will swallow the projectile if it is fast enough (obviously, the best solution would be lasers).

Again, I was talking about slower than light objects. Any torpedo or turbolaser or weapon like that would get sucked in, correct?

Lasers would work, but laser emitters are rather fragile, aren't they? We're talking about a race that hurls plasma blasts around for fun.

One issue - unlike any Star Wars weapon I've heard of besides the Galaxy Gun, photon torpedoes have FTL propulsion.

[YT300000]

One issue - unlike any Star Wars weapon I've heard of besides the Galaxy Gun, photon torpedoes have FTL propulsion.

That's only if the ship that launches them is moving faster than light. Photorps can't breach the light barrier by themselves (not standard torps, anyway).