ST vs SW a sure win for ST!

Spoonist · Post by **Spoonist** » 2003-11-29 11:50am

Topic.ToungeInCheek=True
Topic.Serious=False
Author.WillDebate=False
Author.WantToSeeWhatHappens=True
Author.Troll=False

Because of Narrativium!
I present the case that just like Discworld, both ST and SW contain Narrativium and thus the weaker side will win.
For the uneducated who have yet to know what Narrativium is I refer you to the source:
The Science of Discworld
Now, Narrativium works because of the narrative imperative, heroes must be heroic, engines will only fail when needed the most etc. Now lets see if ST and SW indeed contains Narrativium:
SW:
Stormtroopers can hit inanimate objects at vast distances but can't hit a hero at 10 feet.
Stromtroopers wear armor, but the armor doesn't help when fired upon by heroes or their allies.
Vader lets luke escape time and time again when he could just have used 'the force' to stop him.
Imperial star destroyers are impressive/effective unless they face a much smaller force.
All enemies are 'evil' all heroes are 'good'.
I would say that the emperors plan to ensnare Luke by baiting him in to destroy the DS2 is a compelling evidence for the existance of Narrativium in SW.
The smaller force wins in the end.
ST:
People who we do not know the name of die easier than people we do know the name of.
When you send the highest ranking officers they succeed where a superior force of grunts can't do the job.
The better looking you are the more likely you are to loose clothing.
Again people who can hit a rope/button at 100 yards or more can't hit a person at 10 feet.
When the voyager finds a way to get home there will always be something that revokes it at the last minute.
A solution that worked last time are totally forgotten the next time a similar danger appears.
And again, the smaller force will always win in the end.

So even though they use different names like the Force or ratings, both worlds actually is governed by Narrativium.

Now that I have presented some evidence for Narrativium in both words we can safely go to the next assumption:
Since the empire is vastly superior to the federation it must fail because of the narrative imperitive.

GUTB · Post by **GUTB** » 2003-11-29 11:59am

If we're talking about the entire ST universe vs. the entire SW universe than it's obvious the ST universe wins (Borg, Q, etc).

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2003-11-29 12:04pm

Why is this here?

Seriously this is more akin to Fantasy then actually a debate of SW vs ST....I'll let it simmer but honestly when erecting another universe's rules onto another universe, it becomes a slight deviation of the material we're speaking of.

Spoonist · Post by **Spoonist** » 2003-11-29 12:04pm

GUTB wrote:If we're talking about the entire ST universe vs. the entire SW universe than it's obvious the ST universe wins (Borg, Q, etc).

Ummm... No.
Because of narrativium both borg and Q are never successful in their schemes vs the heroes, so likewise the heroes of SW would easily use the Force and humor to easily defeat the likes of borg and Q.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2003-11-29 12:04pm

The logic prevalent on SD.net effortlessly dispels all Narrativium.

Keevan_Colton · Post by **Keevan_Colton** » 2003-11-29 12:05pm

GUTB wrote:If we're talking about the entire ST universe vs. the entire SW universe than it's obvious the ST universe wins (Borg, Q, etc).

Checking poster intelligence : Zero result

What the fuck is up with you, its been shown time and time again the borg are fucking useless....and the Q....I'd love the calcs for the firepower of a finger click. Do note aswell that they are not omnipotent, there are things they cant do....

Spoonist · Post by **Spoonist** » 2003-11-29 12:07pm

Ghost Rider wrote:Why is this here?

Seriously this is more akin to Fantasy then actually a debate of SW vs ST....I'll let it simmer but honestly when erecting another universe's rules onto another universe, it becomes a slight deviation of the material we're speaking of.

My point is actually that both the ST and the SW rules already have Narrativium in them. I'm not introducing anything new to the concepts. Just applying a different viewpoint to the facts we see in the canon documentation.
(And if anyone doesn't feel that it is appropriate for it to be here I wouldn't be upset if it was HoSd).

Spoonist · Post by **Spoonist** » 2003-11-29 12:11pm

NecronLord wrote:The logic prevalent on SD.net effortlessly dispels all Narrativium.

Ah,

that is more like it!

True logic dispels narrativium in our world. But the problem is that sd.net is not part of the SW universe but rather is an onlooker from without.

Andrew J. · Post by **Andrew J.** » 2003-11-29 12:35pm

Now, I'ma big Discworld fan and I've never heard anything about "narrativium." However, Discworld does follow the Laws of Narrative Causality, which I think is what you're trying to talk about here. Note, however, that they are not necessarily followed all the time. Ex: in Jingo, Corporal Nobbs is forced into drag, and it is stated that one of the laws of narrative causality is that men will find another man in drag that they think is a woman more attractive than any actual women around. However, Nobby is so damn ugly that narrative causality "gives up." There is a similar situation here; the disparity between SW and ST is so great that not even "underdog always wins" can help the Feds here.

Robert Walper · Post by **Robert Walper** » 2003-11-29 12:36pm

Spoonist wrote:
NecronLord wrote:The logic prevalent on SD.net effortlessly dispels all Narrativium.
Ah, that is more like it!

True logic dispels narrativium in our world. But the problem is that sd.net is not part of the SW universe but rather is an onlooker from without.

Huh...really? Then why do I see Imperial troops, scouts and vehicles outside my apartment? They claim they're looking for a rebel scum who stole some valueable data pack or something...claimed he was in a red shirt with a noisy scanning device and waving around the weirdest looking pistol you ever saw.

Mad · Post by **Mad** » 2003-11-29 02:19pm

Robert Walper wrote:Huh...really? Then why do I see Imperial troops, scouts and vehicles outside my apartment? They claim they're looking for a rebel scum who stole some valueable data pack or something...claimed he was in a red shirt with a noisy scanning device and waving around the weirdest looking pistol you ever saw.

Um, Rob, those nice men in the white suits aren't stormtroopers, they're just here to help you...

Post by **NecronLord** » 2003-11-29 02:26pm

Spoonist wrote: True logic dispels narrativium in our world. But the problem is that sd.net is not part of the SW universe but rather is an onlooker from without.

Much like quantum physics, our observations change what we look upon, so powerful is our total logic.

Einhander Sn0m4n · Post by **Einhander Sn0m4n** » 2003-11-29 03:13pm

I have one question to ask about what's going on in this thread:

What.

The.

FUCK!?!

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-11-29 05:12pm

False. Narrativium is not a meaningful force within ST and SW. Their planets are round, for gods sake. What are they, some sort of crazy religious nutcases?

Post by **NecronLord** » 2003-11-29 05:51pm

SirNitram wrote:False. Narrativium is not a meaningful force within ST and SW. Their planets are round, for gods sake. What are they, some sort of crazy religious nutcases?

When the Vulcans developed their award of Total Logic (ST:TMP) they sucked the narritivium out of the universe. As a result, with the exception of the next few films, which was caused by the narrativium all flowing toward Vulcan, the entire Star Trek universe suffered from terminally bad storytelling...

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-11-29 05:59pm

NecronLord wrote:
SirNitram wrote:False. Narrativium is not a meaningful force within ST and SW. Their planets are round, for gods sake. What are they, some sort of crazy religious nutcases?
When the Vulcans developed their award of Total Logic (ST:TMP) they sucked the narritivium out of the universe. As a result, with the exception of the next few films, which was caused by the narrativium all flowing toward Vulcan, the entire Star Trek universe suffered from terminally bad storytelling...

Indeed. The resulting narrative vacuum has, ironically, caused it to become a breeding ground for the stories that couldn't hack it in more punishing universes. Like four dimensional cliches they infest backwards and forwards, overwhelming more refined and less brutish stories.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2003-11-29 06:06pm

Damm those Vulcans. They're responsible for B&B.

*Grabs Skynet, puts it on Vulcan, then whistles up Vejur and tells it the creator is a captive of the Vulcans. Laughs at the ensuing curb stomping*

Robert Walper · Post by **Robert Walper** » 2003-11-29 07:25pm

Mad wrote:
Robert Walper wrote:Huh...really? Then why do I see Imperial troops, scouts and vehicles outside my apartment? They claim they're looking for a rebel scum who stole some valueable data pack or something...claimed he was in a red shirt with a noisy scanning device and waving around the weirdest looking pistol you ever saw.
Um, Rob, those nice men in the white suits aren't stormtroopers, they're just here to help you...

You mean it's not a mobile technological restraining field I'm experiencing? They said it was when they injected me with the truth drugs to get information out of me...their interrogation driod must have been broken at the time...

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2003-11-29 09:08pm

GUTB wrote:If we're talking about the entire ST universe vs. the entire SW universe than it's obvious the ST universe wins (Borg, Q, etc).

Fun, all we need to do is bring on the 25,000 ISDs and 500,000
Nebulon-Bs and the SW side wins, as for the Q, there's
something called Ysalamari

Einhander Sn0m4n · Post by **Einhander Sn0m4n** » 2003-11-29 09:25pm

MKSheppard wrote:
GUTB wrote:If we're talking about the entire ST universe vs. the entire SW universe than it's obvious the ST universe wins (Borg, Q, etc).
Fun, all we need to do is bring on the 25,000 ISDs and 500,000
Nebulon-Bs and the SW side wins, as for the Q, there's
something called Ysalamari

Exactly.

And for trolls spewing tired old arguments long since shattered to powder millions of years ago, there's something called a Ban.

hint Hint HINT!

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2003-11-29 10:46pm

GUTB wrote:If we're talking about the entire ST universe vs. the entire SW universe than it's obvious the ST universe wins (Borg, Q, etc).

I presume you have some evidence to support your claim that he borg could defeat the Empire?

Please present it.

Spoonist · Post by **Spoonist** » 2003-11-30 05:14am

Andrew J. wrote:Now, I'ma big Discworld fan and I've never heard anything about "narrativium."

That statement is a contradiction of terms. Either you are a big discworld fan or you have never heard of narrativium, unless of course you include the word ignorant.

You must have missed the only real sceptic book that appeals to the masses "The Science of Discworld", now I know that Pratchett had problems in getting it published in the USA but I gave you the Amazon link in the first topic if you wish to join the bandwagon.

Andrew J. wrote:However, Discworld does follow the Laws of Narrative Causality, which I think is what you're trying to talk about here.

So first you prove that you don't know what I'm talking about and then you try to belittle me?

Narrativium is a base element (like cesium or carbon in ours) in discworld which causes narrative casuality.

Andrew J. wrote:Note, however, that they are not necessarily followed all the time. Ex: in Jingo, Corporal Nobbs is forced into drag, and it is stated that one of the laws of narrative causality is that men will find another man in drag that they think is a woman more attractive than any actual women around. However, Nobby is so damn ugly that narrative causality "gives up." There is a similar situation here; the disparity between SW and ST is so great that not even "underdog always wins" can help the Feds here.

Aha, you bring up a strong case there, but I think I know the answer to this riddle. If "the underdog always wins" would be canceled by the too numerous superiority of the empire then how come the rebellion is successful? They are equally outnumbered in several canon documents but still manage to get narrative casuality on their side.
Could it be that Nobbs is soooo ugly that it even surpasses the difference of might between the empire and the federation? *shudders*

Spoonist · Post by **Spoonist** » 2003-11-30 05:17am

Ender wrote:
GUTB wrote:If we're talking about the entire ST universe vs. the entire SW universe than it's obvious the ST universe wins (Borg, Q, etc).
I presume you have some evidence to support your claim that he borg could defeat the Empire?

Please present it.

*airhostess walks up to ender with a somewhat stiff smile*
Sir, are you aware that hijacking is considered an offense in some countries, sir? Could you please remain seated and stop waving that gun and then we could all resume having a good time.

Spoonist · Post by **Spoonist** » 2003-11-30 05:23am

Einhander Sn0m4n wrote:I have one question to ask about what's going on in this thread:

What.

The.

FUCK!?!

Heathen!
You have never heard of discworld?
Lspace

2000AD · Post by **2000AD** » 2003-11-30 07:18am

Given that in The Science of Discworld when the Wizards created Roundworld (Earth and it's universe) there was no Narrativium, therefor it is logical that a possible future of the roundworld (Star trek) would not have any either.
Also since in Star Wars the bad guys can actually win (Palpatine becoming Emperor, ESB, Vong ass kicking at the start of NJO, etc.) it would seem there is no Narravitium there either.

Note on The Science of Discworld: (according to the foreword)
This is not a book in the vein of The Science of Star Trek which tries to explain fictional tech with todays science, it is actually a science book, that has a DW story interwoven with it, where the wizards of the DW create our universe in an experiment to se what a world without magic might be like.
IMO it's quite a good read and certainly better than the 2nd Science of DW book.