"Husnock" ship vs ISD or SISD

Shrykull · Post by **Shrykull** » 2003-11-29 11:15pm

How do you think it would do? Well, considering it was not a real ship and instead was created by the dowd, we don't know just how powerful he could have made the weapons on it. Anyway, where they say they've been hit with X-watts (which is power, and I forget how much) of "energy" would this damage a ISD or SISD?

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2003-11-29 11:50pm

The weapon was 400 GW.

No chance in hell based upon what was observed.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2003-11-30 12:11am

I assume that by "SISD" you mean an Executor-class Command Ship, often refered to as a "SSD", correct?

Patrick Degan · Post by **Patrick Degan** » 2003-11-30 02:34am

The results of the bombardment at Rana IV gives us a gauge on Husnock capabilities. Although the surface was devestated, it certainly was not reduced to molten slag, as the heavy weapons on a standard Imperial Stardestroyer are capable of. Furthermore, Rana IV appeared to still have a breathable atmosphere after the attack, indicating something less by orders of magnitude than the sort of bombardment that could destroy a biosphere. We cannot know how many ships were involved in the bombardment, but if the power level of the warship projection which attacked the Enterprise is any indication, it's clear that a single battleship could not have accomplished that level of surface devestation —at least not in a single day or not with its beam weapons alone.

In short, while a Husnock battleship might be frightening by Federation standards, it would never survive against even an Old Republic Acclimator-class invasion transport, nevermind a standard Imperial Stardestroyer or any of the Empire's superships.

Shrykull · Post by **Shrykull** » 2003-11-30 03:18am

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:I assume that by "SISD" you mean an Executor-class Command Ship, often refered to as a "SSD", correct?

I actually meant super star destroyer, if that's what SSD stands for.

MrAnderson · Post by **MrAnderson** » 2003-12-03 10:05am

There is no way to gauge the ship at all. We never see the real Husnock ship. We do not even know if the ship we see looks like a real Husnock ship. By the same token we do not know the firepower of the Husnock since the Dowd did not want to destroy the Enterprise but instead drive it off without real harm.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-12-03 10:57am

Shrykull wrote:
Spanky The Dolphin wrote:I assume that by "SISD" you mean an Executor-class Command Ship, often refered to as a "SSD", correct?
I actually meant super star destroyer, if that's what SSD stands for.

SSD means two things. It is a way to describe ships of a level significantly above ISD. Because of this Executor, Sovereign, and Eclipse class ships have often been refered to as SSDs. However, most SSDs are refered to by their proper name. The ship shown in ESB and ROTJ is the Executor class and its often referred to just by the term SSD. Because you are referring to the SSD as a class of its own, I suspect you intend the Executor class.

Patrick Degan · Post by **Patrick Degan** » 2003-12-03 11:50pm

MrAnderson wrote:There is no way to gauge the ship at all. We never see the real Husnock ship. We do not even know if the ship we see looks like a real Husnock ship. By the same token we do not know the firepower of the Husnock since the Dowd did not want to destroy the Enterprise but instead drive it off without real harm.

Don't be ridiculous. The projection was based on the ship which attacked Rana IV, and there is no evidence to suggest that it was anything else.

Luke Starkiller · Post by **Luke Starkiller** » 2003-12-04 01:17pm

Patrick Degan wrote:
MrAnderson wrote:There is no way to gauge the ship at all. We never see the real Husnock ship. We do not even know if the ship we see looks like a real Husnock ship. By the same token we do not know the firepower of the Husnock since the Dowd did not want to destroy the Enterprise but instead drive it off without real harm.
Don't be ridiculous. The projection was based on the ship which attacked Rana IV, and there is no evidence to suggest that it was anything else.

The abilities of the projection varied each time it showed up though. The only thing we know that the real Husnock could do was the observed surface damage. Does anyone know the timeframe for that attack?

buzz_knox · Post by **buzz_knox** » 2003-12-04 01:52pm

Patrick Degan wrote: Although the surface was devestated, it certainly was not reduced to molten slag, as the heavy weapons on a standard Imperial Stardestroyer are capable of. Furthermore, Rana IV appeared to still have a breathable atmosphere after the attack, indicating something less by orders of magnitude than the sort of bombardment that could destroy a biosphere.

It's been a while since I saw the episode, but the surface of this formerly Class-M planet was red. Given that there wasn't sufficient time for it to become desert, can we really say it wasn't slag? As for the atmosphere, it's reasonable to assume that it was created by the Droud for the small portion of land he had restored.

Patrick Degan · Post by **Patrick Degan** » 2003-12-04 07:27pm

buzz_knox wrote:
Patrick Degan wrote: Although the surface was devestated, it certainly was not reduced to molten slag, as the heavy weapons on a standard Imperial Stardestroyer are capable of. Furthermore, Rana IV appeared to still have a breathable atmosphere after the attack, indicating something less by orders of magnitude than the sort of bombardment that could destroy a biosphere.
It's been a while since I saw the episode, but the surface of this formerly Class-M planet was red. Given that there wasn't sufficient time for it to become desert, can we really say it wasn't slag? As for the atmosphere, it's reasonable to assume that it was created by the Droud for the small portion of land he had restored.

What we saw on the main bridge viewscreen was a heavily cratered surface devoid of vegetation. If the surface had been reduced to slag, not only would it still have been glowing as it steadily cooled, the atmosphere would have been so dust-loaded that visual scans would have been impossible. Nor would have the planet been even remotely habitable after the attack, as it was when Riker's landing party beamed down. The attack did not take place any further back in time than a few days, given that the Enterprise was responding to the colony's distress call and that this was a world only 27 lightyears distant from Earth.

buzz_knox · Post by **buzz_knox** » 2003-12-05 10:03am

Patrick Degan wrote:Nor would have the planet been even remotely habitable after the attack, as it was when Riker's landing party beamed down.

The habitable area was solely the creation of the alien so it's not a fair indication of the surface of the rest of the planet.

buzz_knox · Post by **buzz_knox** » 2003-12-05 10:10am

Another factor to consider is the amount of time the Husnock took to destroy the habitable surface. The alien indicated that he and his wife argued about what to do. He chose to remain and not fight, but she went and fought. I believe he also described flashes from the battle on the horizon. While one cannot get a true timeline from this (there are too many variables, including whether there was an initial surrender demand, early detection of the ship, prior raiding, or even if the surface destruction was caused by the battles as opposed to a purely punitive gesture at the end), it implies a length of time far greater than the 1 hour attributed to a BDZ.

buzz_knox · Post by **buzz_knox** » 2003-12-05 10:11am

I found a screenshot of the planet's surface. You were correct. Brown with craters. My memory was incorrect.

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2003-12-05 12:12pm

buzz_knox wrote:The habitable area was solely the creation of the alien so it's not a fair indication of the surface of the rest of the planet.

The area still had a breathable atmosphere, which the Dowd wouldn't need.

buzz_knox · Post by **buzz_knox** » 2003-12-05 12:39pm

Darth Servo wrote:
buzz_knox wrote:The habitable area was solely the creation of the alien so it's not a fair indication of the surface of the rest of the planet.
The area still had a breathable atmosphere, which the Dowd wouldn't need.

No, but his wife, whom he resurrected as a human in all respects, would. The Dowd wouldn't need grass and a house, but they existed as well.

MrAnderson · Post by **MrAnderson** » 2003-12-05 03:26pm

Patrick Degan wrote:
MrAnderson wrote:There is no way to gauge the ship at all. We never see the real Husnock ship. We do not even know if the ship we see looks like a real Husnock ship. By the same token we do not know the firepower of the Husnock since the Dowd did not want to destroy the Enterprise but instead drive it off without real harm.
Don't be ridiculous. The projection was based on the ship which attacked Rana IV, and there is no evidence to suggest that it was anything else.

You are the one with an odd grasp of reality. At no point is there anything that even suggests the ship is a Husnock ship, looks like one, acts like one, or has comperable firepower to one.

You are 100% GUESSING that the Dowd decided to duplicate a Husnock to scare off the Enterprise.

Ted C · Post by **Ted C** » 2003-12-05 03:36pm

MrAnderson wrote:You are the one with an odd grasp of reality. At no point is there anything that even suggests the ship is a Husnock ship, looks like one, acts like one, or has comperable firepower to one.

You are 100% GUESSING that the Dowd decided to duplicate a Husnock to scare off the Enterprise.

If you want to go the solipsis route, there's no evidence that anything that occurred in that episode was what it seemed. For all we know, the Dowd destroyed the Rana IV colony for unknown reasons, and the Husnock never really existed.

Estimates of Husnock capabilities assume that Kevin Uxbridge's final explanation of events was factual. There's absolutely no other basis for estimating their capabilities, so there's no point in trying to dismiss assessments of their capabilities with the "it was just an illusion" argument.

The ship's attack on the Enterprise gives us only an idea of the Enterprise's defensive limits, since their sensors showed that the ship was "capable of hitting with far more powerful bursts" than the 400 GW blasts that effectively crippled the Enterprise in three shots.

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2003-12-05 03:57pm

buzz_knox wrote:
Darth Servo wrote:The area still had a breathable atmosphere, which the Dowd wouldn't need.
No, but his wife, whom he resurrected as a human in all respects, would. The Dowd wouldn't need grass and a house, but they existed as well.

A) Prove that the "being" created by the Dowd to replace his wife was "human in all respects".

2) The Dowd liked the vegetation and house, just like he liked the music box that was driving Troi mad. He was living in denial.

buzz_knox · Post by **buzz_knox** » 2003-12-05 04:21pm

A. Didn't the scans identify her as human in all respects? If we argue that she was simply an illusion, then it is equally plausible that the Husnock vaporized the planet in one split second blast, and the Dowd created an illusion of the planet being intact.

B. Of course, he was living in denial. He wouldn't have recreated the little bit of home he had if he wasn't in denial, and we wouldn't be having this discussion. But his mental state doesn't speak to whether or not the atmosphere was the original or was recreated by him in that zone of habitability.

Why don't you explain how a planet can be subjected to a bombardment that would render it lifeless yet retain an atmosphere that was normal in all visual respects when viewed from the habitable zone? No ash, no fallout, no dust and no need whatsoever for life support by the Enterprise away team, who weren't illusions.

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2003-12-05 05:28pm

buzz_knox wrote:A. Didn't the scans identify her as human in all respects? If we argue that she was simply an illusion, then it is equally plausible that the Husnock vaporized the planet in one split second blast, and the Dowd created an illusion of the planet being intact.

Kevin insisted that they didn't need the replicator offered by the E-D crew. His wife obviously didn't need to eat.

MrAnderson · Post by **MrAnderson** » 2003-12-05 05:39pm

Darth Servo wrote:
buzz_knox wrote:A. Didn't the scans identify her as human in all respects? If we argue that she was simply an illusion, then it is equally plausible that the Husnock vaporized the planet in one split second blast, and the Dowd created an illusion of the planet being intact.
Kevin insisted that they didn't need the replicator offered by the E-D crew. His wife obviously didn't need to eat.

If he can destroy an entire interstellar empire (along with all its equipment etc etc) one can assume that whipping up the ocassional meal for his recreated wife would be a snap.

BTW, am I the only one that found the whole can destroy an entire race but cannot hide from one empath to have been utterly stupid in the episode? Hell the Dowd said he met his wife wandering Earth. How did he do that without ever getting noticed by one of the many telepathic races that probably reside on Earth. Did he drive them all insane that he ran into to protect his identity?

Ted C · Post by **Ted C** » 2003-12-05 05:47pm

MrAnderson wrote:BTW, am I the only one that found the whole can destroy an entire race but cannot hide from one empath to have been utterly stupid in the episode? Hell the Dowd said he met his wife wandering Earth. How did he do that without ever getting noticed by one of the many telepathic races that probably reside on Earth. Did he drive them all insane that he ran into to protect his identity?

You seem to be assuming the existence of an immigrant population that we just don't see in Star Trek. Aliens residing on Earth seem to be extremely rare, so they would be widely dispersed and the Uxbridges would have had no reason to be in contact with them. I think it would be trivially easy for him to avoid telepaths, since they would have no reason to be looking for him.

Patrick Degan · Post by **Patrick Degan** » 2003-12-05 07:17pm

MrAnderson wrote:
Patrick Degan wrote:
MrAnderson wrote:There is no way to gauge the ship at all. We never see the real Husnock ship. We do not even know if the ship we see looks like a real Husnock ship. By the same token we do not know the firepower of the Husnock since the Dowd did not want to destroy the Enterprise but instead drive it off without real harm.
Don't be ridiculous. The projection was based on the ship which attacked Rana IV, and there is no evidence to suggest that it was anything else.
You are the one with an odd grasp of reality. At no point is there anything that even suggests the ship is a Husnock ship, looks like one, acts like one, or has comperable firepower to one.

All right then, present your evidence which clearly disproves that the warship projection was not based on the Husnock ship which attacked Rana IV. Or is Appeal to Ignorance the sole defence of your position?

You are 100% GUESSING that the Dowd decided to duplicate a Husnock to scare off the Enterprise.

Because there is no reason to surmise otherwise. It is you who is engaging in guessing games here.

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2003-12-06 06:30pm

Riker did report that according to their sensors, the mysterious ship had enough firepower to do the observed damage to the planet. So whether it was modeled after an actual Husnock ship or not is irrelevant. Its capabilities were the same.