Darth Wong wrote:Robert Walper wrote:
Technically, we haven't seen thousands of Star Destroyers either.
Official literature states it clearly, and the construction of a single Death Star beggars the construction of a few thousand Star Destroyers. We also saw thousands of ships ringing Naboo, from a single shipping corporation.
While not entirely agreeing with your statement, my post there was just a joke.
The only point at which seeing thousands of cube per planet might have been expected is during the Species 8472 war. However, we never saw the beginning of that war, only the last little bit of it. According to Tuvok's statement based upon info gathered from destroyed Borg vessels(ref: STVOY "Scorpion"), the Borg had only encountered Species 8472 at least a half dozen times, each time losing swiftly. According to Seven(ref: STVOY "Prey"), Species 8472 destroyed hundreds of Borg worlds. Thus, vast scale battles having already taken place before Voyager even showed up is hardly unlikely.
So? How does any of this change the fact that there's not a shred of evidence for millions of cubes and Chakotay has no way of knowing how many cubes the Borg actually have?
Irrelevent. He stated vessels, not cubes. Besides, I find the comment to be nothing more than a casual reference in a heated debate with his ship's captain. I dismiss the remark on that basis.
Just to be the devil's advocate though, Chakotay
does have a frame of reference on which to base a possible fleet size for the Borg if we are to assume he meant his remark literately(I don't though). In STVOY "Unity", Chakotay is captured and healed by a group of beings (previously Borg)who were disconnected from the Collective in a accident. In the process of being healed, he reluctantly had to undergo a hive mind experience with the group mind. During this process he had access to their memories and knowledge. One could argue it's easily possible at least
one of the people of the group had vague, or perhaps accurate knowledge on the size of the Borg Collective's armada. This took place before STVOY "Scorpion" in which he made his reference to Borg fleet size.
In fact, given the Borg were willing to negotiate by the time Voyager showed up is leads further credibility to this idea. The Borg might technically have millions of vessels, but there is no reason to assume they are all cubes.
If we're including small craft, then they probably have millions of vessels. Mind you, that's a bit like pointing out that America has millions of cars. But the assumption (made in this thread by somebody else) that they have millions of full-fledged cubes is totally without justification.
Agreed. My extremely rough guesestimate at the moment is that if we are including Borg probes, spheres, diamands, cubes and tactical cubes, the Borg may have a upper limit fleet size of around several hundred thousand such vessels. Let's not forget even the massive Borg cubes are indeed mostly empty space, so it's not like their volume is a good way to judge how much material is required to build one(not to mention their other, smaller vessels, which also have vast internal hangers).
Additionally, one not need assume they are all going to hang around Borg space either. According to individuals in Unimatrix Zero, Borg vessels are spread throughout the entire galaxy, not just Borg space.
Right, that's why it took six months for a cube to reach the Federation after the Borg decided they were interested in them.
As far as I'm concerned, that was
choice on the Collective's part, not limitation on speed. STVOY "Dark Frontier" established the Borg Collective had established Transwarp conduits in the Alpha Quadrant long before the Enterprise D had it's encounter, with Borg cubes already present in the Alpha Quadrant. STTNG "The Neutral Zone" established the Borg had already scooped up outer colonies of both the Romulans and Federation(before the Enterprise encountered the Borg). STTNG "Descent" established that even in the TNG era, transwarp conduits allowed Borg vessels to travel in excess of 292
million C. At that speed, it would
not take 6 months for the Borg to reach Federation borders. Q flinging the Enterprise in the path of a Borg cube was nothing more than a heads up that the Borg
already had the Federation as a potential target. Q merely generously gave them a heads up that shit was going to hit the fan in the not too distant future.
And of course, when under attack for months, they would continue to keep their ships spread out rather than bringing them in to defend their home territory.
And you assume the Borg kept their vessels spread out why? Transwarp coils aboard Borg vessels allow them to travel in excess of 630
million C. Plenty of speed to recall and redeploy their vessels. This doesn't even take into account their Transwarp Hubs, which allow them to deploy vessels throughout the galaxy in
minutes.
Even assuming with millions of cubes at hand, their density of ships in any one area wouldn't be that impressive given the volume of the Milky Way. Transwarp FTL factors would allow the Borg to amass large numbers of cubes togather quickly, but as I said during the Species 8472 war, we only saw the last little bit of it. The Borg considered themselves close to defeat, yet they could still muster hundreds of cubes to protect just eight planets.
Or they were killed in deep space.
Unlikely. Species 8472 activity was limited to the passageway Voyager though was a easy trip through Borg space, remember?
All we heard was a ship count and a casualty count
Incorrect. All we heard was a
casualty count, not a
total ship count. Quote: "SPECIES 8472 HAS PENETRATED UNIMATRIZ 010, GRID 19. 8 PLANETS DESTROYED. 312 VESSELS DISABLED. 4,000,621 BORG ELIMINATED." (ref: STVOY "Scorpion Part 2")
At no point was there any mention of how many vessels actually took part in the battle. And the Borg have been seen to retreat from engagements with Species 8472 (ref: STVOY "Scorpion").
which was not commensurate with the assumption that these were all large cubes.
At no point was any other class of Borg vessel seen to engage Species 8472. Visual evidence suggests the Borg relied heavily, if not entirely upon their cube fleets to try and defeat Species 8472. Not one other class of vessel was witnessed or even stated to have engaged Species 8472. This doesn't imply no other class ships participate of course, but one cannot rule out they relied solely upon cubes either.
And even after the war, they still had the capability to launch an assault upon Species 116 with hundreds of cubes(ref: STVOY "Hope and Fear").
Which in turn means that the vast majority of their fleet had not been destroyed, contrary to your assumption.
You claim that several hundred cubes would consititute a major portion of the Borg fleet, whether before or after their massive losses against Species 8472. Present your evidence to justify this claim. In this instance, you have to present evidence for a lower or upper limit on the total size of the Borg fleet. Since even
I haven't made that determination yet, I'm all ears.
Otherwise they would be in a rebuilding phase, rather than immediately going on the offensive.
Hundreds of Borg worlds were destroyed by Species 8472. Assimilating new worlds would be the
method of rebuilding their infrastructure. Or would you insist the Borg would instead reassemble planetary bodies that had been blown into pieces?
Hey, it's not like I'm the only one here who has a few facts about particular subjects stuck in their head. 
