New Direction for the Galaxy post-ROTJ?
Moderator: Vympel
New Direction for the Galaxy post-ROTJ?
I know that this discussion is irrelevant "officially" because the EU has set it all in stone since "Heir to the Empire" and beyond, but I was just curious what people thought of this...
(and I know, I know, the EU says the New Republic is what happens, and yes yes yes, I'm sure Episode III will explain this better (I hope), but just bear with me... )
What if 'Seperatists' = Rebellion and 'Republic' = Empire?
I always tacitly assumed (pre-TPM) that the Empire sort of "took over" the Republic, and thus it made sense that disenfranchised Republicans (like Mon Mothma and Leia) fought to restablish the Republic (as they do in the later EU with the "New Republic").
But we've seen hints that all may not be as it seems. Again, this is deeply speculative and not wholly my original idea...
Obi-Wan's new "Jedi Starfighter" has the "Empire" symbol visibly on it in several scenes, yet the "Empire" has not been declared onscreen. Nobody even mentions "empire" or "emperor" yet it's there plain as day. And we know that the Jedi Order take orders directly from and are subject to the authority of the Supreme Chancellor of the Senate. And in the time of the Empire, who better represents the authority of the Empire than Palpatine himself (who of course was Supreme Chancellor and we suppose the last legally elected ruler of the Republic proper).
I don't think this is on the DVD, but in some behind-the-scenes artwork I've seen the "Trade Federation" or seperatist symbol as being one that looks almost 100% like the red little "Rebel Alliance" symbol (which is identical to the New Republic symbol, minus the blue field with circle of stars behind it).
So what if the "Bad Guys" (Seperatists) in the prequels turn out to be the "Good Guys" in the OT, while the defenders of tradition, the "Good Guys" (the Republic) end up being the Bad Guys? (Empire)
What if the supposed end of the "Clone Wars" wasn't really the end of THE WAR (Palpatine's war for power) and thus it's been going on for 20 years (with the once powerful seperatists whittled down to a small band of disaffected and rag-tag gurreillas). After all, he purges the Jedi and actively hunts down and kills his enemies, so in a sense he's still "fighting the war" just with a different front. And the apparent goals have radically changed (though Palpatine has probably planned this all along).
Would the Rebels really want to rebuild the corrupt Republic, or would they instead follow the ideals of the early Seperatists (ie: a "Confederacy of Independent Systems")? Would the Rebel Leaders still be "Republic Loyalists" who inflitrated the Seperatist movement to make it a political reform movement instead (albeit with a revolutionary angle, believing the Empire was a corruption of the Republic that had to be restored to its former glory). Or perhaps was it Luke's influence as a Jedi (and his association with Leia... also an untrained "Jedi" by birth) that swayed these Rebel leaders to swing back into a "Republic" style of movement?
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Then again, I've seen the symbol for the "Republic" on the new line of books (that began after TPM was released in theaters and new "prequel era" books started coming out alongside the NJO) assigned to the symbol that was on Palpatine's little "hover podium" thing in the Senate.
Then again, I assumed this was simply the symbol of the Supreme Chancellor (or maybe of the Senate chair or something) rather than the Republic itself.
Or is the "Empire" symbol the symbol of the Jedi Order?
Or is this theory completely bogus (even if we assume Lucas intends to subtly re-write the entire EU)?
Thoughts... ?
(and I know, I know, the EU says the New Republic is what happens, and yes yes yes, I'm sure Episode III will explain this better (I hope), but just bear with me... )
What if 'Seperatists' = Rebellion and 'Republic' = Empire?
I always tacitly assumed (pre-TPM) that the Empire sort of "took over" the Republic, and thus it made sense that disenfranchised Republicans (like Mon Mothma and Leia) fought to restablish the Republic (as they do in the later EU with the "New Republic").
But we've seen hints that all may not be as it seems. Again, this is deeply speculative and not wholly my original idea...
Obi-Wan's new "Jedi Starfighter" has the "Empire" symbol visibly on it in several scenes, yet the "Empire" has not been declared onscreen. Nobody even mentions "empire" or "emperor" yet it's there plain as day. And we know that the Jedi Order take orders directly from and are subject to the authority of the Supreme Chancellor of the Senate. And in the time of the Empire, who better represents the authority of the Empire than Palpatine himself (who of course was Supreme Chancellor and we suppose the last legally elected ruler of the Republic proper).
I don't think this is on the DVD, but in some behind-the-scenes artwork I've seen the "Trade Federation" or seperatist symbol as being one that looks almost 100% like the red little "Rebel Alliance" symbol (which is identical to the New Republic symbol, minus the blue field with circle of stars behind it).
So what if the "Bad Guys" (Seperatists) in the prequels turn out to be the "Good Guys" in the OT, while the defenders of tradition, the "Good Guys" (the Republic) end up being the Bad Guys? (Empire)
What if the supposed end of the "Clone Wars" wasn't really the end of THE WAR (Palpatine's war for power) and thus it's been going on for 20 years (with the once powerful seperatists whittled down to a small band of disaffected and rag-tag gurreillas). After all, he purges the Jedi and actively hunts down and kills his enemies, so in a sense he's still "fighting the war" just with a different front. And the apparent goals have radically changed (though Palpatine has probably planned this all along).
Would the Rebels really want to rebuild the corrupt Republic, or would they instead follow the ideals of the early Seperatists (ie: a "Confederacy of Independent Systems")? Would the Rebel Leaders still be "Republic Loyalists" who inflitrated the Seperatist movement to make it a political reform movement instead (albeit with a revolutionary angle, believing the Empire was a corruption of the Republic that had to be restored to its former glory). Or perhaps was it Luke's influence as a Jedi (and his association with Leia... also an untrained "Jedi" by birth) that swayed these Rebel leaders to swing back into a "Republic" style of movement?
------------------------------
Then again, I've seen the symbol for the "Republic" on the new line of books (that began after TPM was released in theaters and new "prequel era" books started coming out alongside the NJO) assigned to the symbol that was on Palpatine's little "hover podium" thing in the Senate.
Then again, I assumed this was simply the symbol of the Supreme Chancellor (or maybe of the Senate chair or something) rather than the Republic itself.
Or is the "Empire" symbol the symbol of the Jedi Order?
Or is this theory completely bogus (even if we assume Lucas intends to subtly re-write the entire EU)?
Thoughts... ?
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I like the theory - if only because it's new and different compared to the official universe history, etc. It keeps things interesting...
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The symbol your refering to on the Jedi starfighter is not the imperial symbol. ATOC:ICS states that it is an anchient Bendu monk, symbol that represents the the unified Galaxy. It has eight spokes and a disk, while the Imperial symbol has a disk and six spokes. Seeing as the Jedi evoled from the original Bendu Monks, the symbol probably represents the unifying force.
Palpatine later defaced the Bendu symbol to create the imperial one, think of the nazi swasika.
I do love your idea though it has a certain mythic symetry to it.
Palpatine later defaced the Bendu symbol to create the imperial one, think of the nazi swasika.
I do love your idea though it has a certain mythic symetry to it.
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Indeed, the Galactic Civil War can really be thought of as beginning with the Stark Hyperspace War, flaring bright in the Clone Wars, and simmering in the Rebellion until Endor.
Quite frankly, you have a conflict stretching really about fifty-five years.
Rebel Alliance is shorthand for "Alliance to Restore the Republic" since it was formed, and that was under Iblis, Mothma, and Organa, so its definitely not a post-Luke thing. While it may be some of the remnants of the CIS, the political motive has definitely changed.
As for the symbols, I have no idea what that symbol is.
The "pseudo-Empire" crest on the Jedi Starfighter is really a Jedi symbol from the numerological studies of the Bendu Monk ancestors of the Jedi 25,000 years ago.
A similarly inspired cog is emblazed on the hull of Republic warships in the Sith War. You can find images on Saxton's website.
SPOILERS BELOW
In Episode III it is believed the Techno Union manufactures Mon Calamari-type cruisers for the Confederacy against the Republic.
I'd say its highly likely the disenfranchised industrialists and firebrands probably threw their lot in with anti-Imperial Senators and aristocrats. You probably have a lot of the local patriots which formed the backbone of the CIS forming the core of the original Rebel cells.
Quite frankly, you have a conflict stretching really about fifty-five years.
Rebel Alliance is shorthand for "Alliance to Restore the Republic" since it was formed, and that was under Iblis, Mothma, and Organa, so its definitely not a post-Luke thing. While it may be some of the remnants of the CIS, the political motive has definitely changed.
As for the symbols, I have no idea what that symbol is.
The "pseudo-Empire" crest on the Jedi Starfighter is really a Jedi symbol from the numerological studies of the Bendu Monk ancestors of the Jedi 25,000 years ago.
A similarly inspired cog is emblazed on the hull of Republic warships in the Sith War. You can find images on Saxton's website.
SPOILERS BELOW
In Episode III it is believed the Techno Union manufactures Mon Calamari-type cruisers for the Confederacy against the Republic.
I'd say its highly likely the disenfranchised industrialists and firebrands probably threw their lot in with anti-Imperial Senators and aristocrats. You probably have a lot of the local patriots which formed the backbone of the CIS forming the core of the original Rebel cells.
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The Empire really begins in the final scene in AOTC when we see Palpatine overseeing the clone army.
Just to be sure here, this is all speculative and NO EPIII SPOILERS PLEASE:
One of the reasons that people are willing to accept the Empire is because it slowly gains control, one bit at a time, in a time of crisis when people are willing to accept it. If Palpatine had said during AOTC "I shall be Emperor and rule the galaxy with tyranny!!" then there would be mass revolution and it wouldnt work.
But effectivly, he does just this through many subtle and small ways. His "emergency powers"--approved and suggested by the Republic itself during a time of crisis--creates the Empire right there. He then slowly begins changing the Republic into his own Order--first with the creation of an army, bearing not the symbol of the Republic, but a new one, which will become the symbol of the Empire. He's building his own New Order one step at a time basically. The Empire is not created in one scene, nor is it taken by force--he manipulates the public into giving it to him!
It wouldnt surprise me if by Episode III people are already calling him Emperor Palpatine, even if the Republic still exists as a title. It probably isnt until the very end of the film, when he creates some sort of framing of the jedi (probably blaming them for the war which has ravaged the galaxy--it was the jedi that delivered the clones after all) that he officially declares the government being retitled as the Empire in response to the turmoil (perhaps in reaction to the growing rebellion). And thats if there is such a scene at all--the title may just grow naturally by the end of the film.
As for Seperatist=rebellion, this is something that i have considered as well, and am still unsure of. Forget all the EU stuff, as Lucas is sure to re-write much of it--the Rebel Alliance is merely a Rebel Alliance against the Empire. I dont think we'll see the Rebel Alliance formally absorb the Seperatist the way the Empire does the Republic; while its true that both of them are fighting the dominant system--Republic/Empire--they fight for different causes, and under different leadership--the main one being that the Seperatists are controlled by the Sith, who also control the Republic/Empire, and only exist as a means for Palpatine to manipulate and control the Republic into the Empire. The Seperatists are only a facade, and are still the bad guys so i doubt we'll see the good guys join up with them.
The way i see it, Bail Organa joins up with Padme to form an opposition against the dictatorship and use their political strengths to sway other allies to their cause. Both oppose the dictatorship, and its obvious that this is where the story is heading. I wouldnt be surprised if a young rebel named Mon Mothra shows up along the way to spearhead the Rebellion Campaign. I'm sure the film will end with these seeds of dissention being sowed, which segue nicely into ANH where the miniscule Rebellion finally wins its first victory.
Just to be sure here, this is all speculative and NO EPIII SPOILERS PLEASE:
One of the reasons that people are willing to accept the Empire is because it slowly gains control, one bit at a time, in a time of crisis when people are willing to accept it. If Palpatine had said during AOTC "I shall be Emperor and rule the galaxy with tyranny!!" then there would be mass revolution and it wouldnt work.
But effectivly, he does just this through many subtle and small ways. His "emergency powers"--approved and suggested by the Republic itself during a time of crisis--creates the Empire right there. He then slowly begins changing the Republic into his own Order--first with the creation of an army, bearing not the symbol of the Republic, but a new one, which will become the symbol of the Empire. He's building his own New Order one step at a time basically. The Empire is not created in one scene, nor is it taken by force--he manipulates the public into giving it to him!
It wouldnt surprise me if by Episode III people are already calling him Emperor Palpatine, even if the Republic still exists as a title. It probably isnt until the very end of the film, when he creates some sort of framing of the jedi (probably blaming them for the war which has ravaged the galaxy--it was the jedi that delivered the clones after all) that he officially declares the government being retitled as the Empire in response to the turmoil (perhaps in reaction to the growing rebellion). And thats if there is such a scene at all--the title may just grow naturally by the end of the film.
As for Seperatist=rebellion, this is something that i have considered as well, and am still unsure of. Forget all the EU stuff, as Lucas is sure to re-write much of it--the Rebel Alliance is merely a Rebel Alliance against the Empire. I dont think we'll see the Rebel Alliance formally absorb the Seperatist the way the Empire does the Republic; while its true that both of them are fighting the dominant system--Republic/Empire--they fight for different causes, and under different leadership--the main one being that the Seperatists are controlled by the Sith, who also control the Republic/Empire, and only exist as a means for Palpatine to manipulate and control the Republic into the Empire. The Seperatists are only a facade, and are still the bad guys so i doubt we'll see the good guys join up with them.
The way i see it, Bail Organa joins up with Padme to form an opposition against the dictatorship and use their political strengths to sway other allies to their cause. Both oppose the dictatorship, and its obvious that this is where the story is heading. I wouldnt be surprised if a young rebel named Mon Mothra shows up along the way to spearhead the Rebellion Campaign. I'm sure the film will end with these seeds of dissention being sowed, which segue nicely into ANH where the miniscule Rebellion finally wins its first victory.
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Check this out (Ep. I):
the cut is the same as Imperial uniforms, but the colour different. The Empire is the Republic, with some new curtains, and trim.
the cut is the same as Imperial uniforms, but the colour different. The Empire is the Republic, with some new curtains, and trim.
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IIRC, I believe Julias Caesar repeatedly cast off his Imperial powers only to retake them for various reasons. Perhaps Palpatine might do something similar; step down but something horrible immediately happens (conveniently enough), so he climbs back up. After a couple of iterations, the people are clamouring for their Emperor, because the Republic is useless.
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I don't think we'll see the capture of the plans. If they captured them that early they would have have them safely with the Alliance soon after, and we wouldn't be seeing Leia being chased by Vader almost 2 decades later.JME2 wrote:Interesting idea. In any event, I WANT to see Mon Mothma, bel Iblis, and the others declare the formation of the Alliance in the closing minutes of EIII and the capture of the Death Star plans at Topwra.
Why whould the clone army wear that symbol? They were not a jedi army, they were the army of the Republic. Painting on to everything the symbol of my commanders, but not the symbol of my country sounds weird.Spartan wrote:The symbol your refering to on the Jedi starfighter is not the imperial symbol. ATOC:ICS states that it is an anchient Bendu monk, symbol that represents the the unified Galaxy. It has eight spokes and a disk, while the Imperial symbol has a disk and six spokes. Seeing as the Jedi evoled from the original Bendu Monks, the symbol probably represents the unifying force.
Palpatine later defaced the Bendu symbol to create the imperial one, think of the nazi swasika.
I do love your idea though it has a certain mythic symetry to it.
Yeah. Though if the army was intended to be led by the Jedi all along, maybe it was just a way of recognizing that (like the Crusaders putting crosses on their shields, to represent the forces of Christiandom?).
Or like you said, the Nazis abrogatting the Swastika from eastern spirituality (and all the Nordic mythology and other stuff they used).
I guess sort of like if Japan built a fleet of Aircraft Carriers emblazoned with Bald Eagles holding the American Flag or something and gave it to us as a gift...
I kind of like the idea of the symbol being a "unification of the galaxy" symbol though. The Republic is after all trying to "reign in its lost children" so to speak (shades of the American Civil War... "Grand Army of the Republic" anyone?) from its point of view.
If it's indeed an "old Jedi symbol" it would make sense, to pervert the unified force theory or whatever of the old monks to be used for modern political goals of a "unified galaxy." And since the Jedi are the instruments of the war (leading troops into battle, fighting as soldiers and commanders), it makes the connection...
And the Empire is just continuing this mission, to bring back into the fold all those who have tried to leave (the Rebels, dissenting systems, etc). I wonder how much new territory they'll conquer in the wars for "buffer zones," "national security interests" and all that stuff?
Or like you said, the Nazis abrogatting the Swastika from eastern spirituality (and all the Nordic mythology and other stuff they used).
I guess sort of like if Japan built a fleet of Aircraft Carriers emblazoned with Bald Eagles holding the American Flag or something and gave it to us as a gift...
I kind of like the idea of the symbol being a "unification of the galaxy" symbol though. The Republic is after all trying to "reign in its lost children" so to speak (shades of the American Civil War... "Grand Army of the Republic" anyone?) from its point of view.
If it's indeed an "old Jedi symbol" it would make sense, to pervert the unified force theory or whatever of the old monks to be used for modern political goals of a "unified galaxy." And since the Jedi are the instruments of the war (leading troops into battle, fighting as soldiers and commanders), it makes the connection...
And the Empire is just continuing this mission, to bring back into the fold all those who have tried to leave (the Rebels, dissenting systems, etc). I wonder how much new territory they'll conquer in the wars for "buffer zones," "national security interests" and all that stuff?
Well, since the Disc symbol was used on Republic warships 3,500 years ago. I would guess that the Republic probably excepted that Jedi-Bendu symbol when it first form; to symbolize galactic unity.
Speaking of unity, lets remember that Palpatine himself is the result of a far older split. We know that the first modern Sith was a fallen Jedi. So it really is all the Jedi fault
Speaking of unity, lets remember that Palpatine himself is the result of a far older split. We know that the first modern Sith was a fallen Jedi. So it really is all the Jedi fault
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The Topwara strike doesn't take place until just prior to ANH, GL won't use EU, and its out-of-style for there to be time-transitions like that in SW films.JME2 wrote:Interesting idea. In any event, I WANT to see Mon Mothma, bel Iblis, and the others declare the formation of the Alliance in the closing minutes of EIII and the capture of the Death Star plans at Topwra.
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Not entirely correct, Mr. Wong. Plutarch records that Iulius Caesar did resign his first dictatorate after only eleven days, and that he later complained that the Senate rather needed to reduce his extraordinary honours rather than increase them; however, after his first dictatorate, he was never without the highest degree of imperium in the Roman Republic (either as consul, or as dictator, or as both).Darth Wong wrote:IIRC, I believe Julias Caesar repeatedly cast off his Imperial powers only to retake them for various reasons. Perhaps Palpatine might do something similar; step down but something horrible immediately happens (conveniently enough), so he climbs back up. After a couple of iterations, the people are clamouring for their Emperor, because the Republic is useless.
You are probably thinking of Caesar Octavianus, who made a show of surrendering his predominance and retiring to private life in January 27 AC, only to have the Senate beg him not to abandon the Republic; a master of propaganda, he then "reluctantly" allowed himself to be elected consul every year for four more years and accepted the office of princeps senatus and the cognomen "Augustus" (traditionally the cognomen of the "emperors"; consequently historians date this as the beginning of the Roman Empire). This was all a sham, of course; even after his "resignation" he retained control of Cyprus, both Hispanias, both Gallias, and Syria (not to mention the fact that he was now Pharaoh and quite literally owned the entirety of Egypt as private property).
He made a second, similar pantomime in 23 BC, when he resigned the consulship, and then "reluctantly" accepted full tribunician authority (and with it ius intercessio, the right to veto any motion or any act by any magistrate or assembly) and imperium maius (meaning he outranked all other magistrates and promagistrate, including the consuls), as well as agreed to have his command of his provinces prorogued.
As a matter of fact, as has been pointed out on this board previously, the Galactic Emperor's career bears a very strong resemblance to an amalgamation of those of Lucius Cornelius Sulla, Gaius Iulius Caesar, and Imperator Caesar Augustus. Certainly Supreme Chancellor Palpatine's actions in the Clone Wars strongly suggest a strong August streak in him (note especially his reluctant acceptance of dictatorial powers, and his promise to lay it aside).
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Well there's nothing wrong with hoping. I want Sean Connery as bel Iblis dammit!Illuminatus Primus wrote:The Topwara strike doesn't take place until just prior to ANH, GL won't use EU, and its out-of-style for there to be time-transitions like that in SW films.JME2 wrote:Interesting idea. In any event, I WANT to see Mon Mothma, bel Iblis, and the others declare the formation of the Alliance in the closing minutes of EIII and the capture of the Death Star plans at Topwra.
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I think that it's probably more of a symbol of those military units controlled by the Jedi Order, rather than the Republic as a whole. The symbol that's possibly that of the entire Republic is the half-cog, half fleur-de-lis thing in the Senate chamber. This is used as the symbol of both the republic and the entire prequel period by Lucasfilm.Spartan wrote:Well, since the Disc symbol was used on Republic warships 3,500 years ago. I would guess that the Republic probably excepted that Jedi-Bendu symbol when it first form; to symbolize galactic unity.
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So maybe the "Empire-ized" version (of the Jedi symbol) indicates that the Sith are now controlling things?
Subtle. ; )
Then again, Lucasfilm (or do you mean LucasBooks? Or Lucas Liscensing? Lucas Lawyers perhaps? heh) has a little sun burst with fire coming off it for the "Sith symbol."
I figure they chose the Chancellery symbol so it would look different than the Empire symbol... standing out for the book indicators. Maybe, maybe not....
Subtle. ; )
Then again, Lucasfilm (or do you mean LucasBooks? Or Lucas Liscensing? Lucas Lawyers perhaps? heh) has a little sun burst with fire coming off it for the "Sith symbol."
I figure they chose the Chancellery symbol so it would look different than the Empire symbol... standing out for the book indicators. Maybe, maybe not....