AARRGGHH Not another Trekkie fan boy! (A lot of text)

[Rightous Fist Of Heaven]

We were having nice discussion over at TGU boards that then evolved into a debate, i just wanted to hear your oppinions of his so called arguments.

And here we go
This is a response from him when i showed the holy power of the ICS.
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I never said shit about a flash or not, i said that based on evidence from ESB where they are fireing at the asteroids, if you analyse the all the data regarding the melting of standard asteroids (mostly silicates maybe a little iron and nickel, you would use silicate to form a low end yield and iron to form a high end yield) the damage caused by TLs is about 4x the hiroshima bomb as a low end figure. In here i am paraphrasing SD.net, where they do a detailed analysis based on our universe's physics meaning that this is DIRECT evidence contradicting your statements.
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After i kindly showed him that a single 50GT MTL shot vould blow up any Fed ship he answered using this. (Mike he thinks you are a fanatic)
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furthermore your statements about destroying ST ships are quite absurd, once again I point out that not even the most fanatical of the fanatics of SW (i am actually much more pro-starwars than it may appear that I am arguing, but i still will not allow people to present such absurd data) has claimed to me knowledge (since Mike Wong, who is known as one of the most fanatical SW people still bases his calculations ON THE LAWS OF PHYSICS, claims that it would take quite a few LTL shots to break through the shields of a federation ship, let alone the rest)
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Tell me where in ESB they say "we were using our weapons on lower power" i would love to read that, i seem to recall from the NJO books that it took some hardware modifications to make the guns fire at power levels other than standard.

Likewise LS, there is more than enough EU evidence to contradict the ICS, where is it you ask? in the first "REbel dream/stand/whatever" NJO books, the Luskankya fires all of its "bottom" TLs(of all types) into the cleared area surrounding the NR camp where the Vong were attacking. if its TLs had the kind of power you are talking of, not only would the entire area surrounding the base be turned into a huge crater, but the air and the ground surrounding the target would become superheated, meaning the NR troops would be toast or at least if the base's shields could stand it, the base would float away in a pool of magma. This did not come to pass. Rather instead the area effected was only the areas hit with the shots, indicating less damage than your statements (considering that the heat generated upon the hit would be enough to do what i am talking about). Also the air around the TL blasts as the moved to their targets would have superheated and expanded at an enourmous amount, think blast wave of hiroshima amount. Unless now you wish to say that when a TL hits something and imparts energy, heat is not generated (which would then mean that my inital statements are correct and that SW goes against basic laws of physics,for our universe indicating a different set of laws meaning all bets are off)

continuing, we have seen on screen, tie fighters be hit by TLs. If a tl (even ltl) had the rediculous power of which you speak (beyond reason and logic for them to have) regardless of what "durasteel" is (it has been shown to be able to be damaged by quite low powered objects throughout the books so it isnt more than maybe 1-2 orders of magnitude and at the most 3 stronger than modern armor) if it was being hit by 50gt TNT even if we assume the high end of 3 orders of magnitude stronger than modern armor it would be completely vaporized, that did not happen, rather in most of the cases the ties broke into pieces, and did not completely obliterate. this indicates that the TLs while significantly stronger than anything we can consider likely are by no means of the power you are talking about.

So this means that either sw laws of physics are variable and change based on the day things are happening (and writers whims), that they are fundamentally different from our own (likely), or that TL are several orders of magnitude less powerful than your mind imagines (by far the most likely outcome) while still exceptionally powerful it wouldnt make them rediculous.


Wait so now, when luke looks at ships a long way away and sees beams hit another ship we are not supposed to think that his view is relative?

and if you are right, then still they are generating more power than is possible (unless they are taping into the ZPF which they arent cuz the powersource for an ISD is a "hypermatter fusion reactor") which still shows my point that they are using different laws of physics than we are meaning that a comparison between the two fictional universes is impossible.

(not to say that it isnt anyway. for all we know TL are easily winked out of existance by ST shields due to their lack of subspace technology, and that phasers pass through SW ones like butter because they phase their target out of the universe and SW has never faught something like that, then again, maybe a 50mt nuke could destroy an ISD and a Galaxy in 1 blow)

Ohh i just thought of one more aspect. the Vong's primary weapons are plasma spheres. These have no problem taking out NR sheilds, which means that standard weapons using modern principles, are effective agaisnt NR ships. The spheres of plasma are at most say 100m in diameter (they are never described as being even a good fraction of the size of an ISD in size) which is very generous, given that size, and the heat needed to make something move beyond plasma we would be able to calculate the total damage that plasma could cause, and i bet that is no more than 1gt.

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Light Soldier, I would be EXTREMELY interested in where the ICS says that a "ton" of damage as measurement is the same in SW as it is here, since a "laser" in SW is a plasma based weapon whereas here it is a device that emits (as well as the radiation that is emited) electromagnetic radiation of a wavelength of somewhere around 700nm, why do you think a "ton" is the same thing.
BTW the hiroshima bomb thing CAME from SD.net. and that data was based on the time taken to melt the asteroids in ESB by the "lasers" not based on flashes there buddy boy.

200 gigatones would be a quite impossible number for a beam of plasma the lenght of HTLs traveling at the speed they travel at to impart, at the temperature necessary for that amount of damage to be given would not allow the material to remain in plasma form.

Also you do not know what SW weapons can do against ST ships, and vise versa because you have NO idea about the true capabilities of the shields of either universe in relation to the others. For instance if ST shields are based on subspace mumbojumbo and cause things to be transported to subspace then simple plasma would not necessarily have any effect on them. Likewise if SD do what they are supposed to be capable of the empire would never have needed the death star.

now where on EARTH did you come up wiht the LTL bolt amounts anyway? even a SW fanatic of the likes of Mike Wong doesnt even go that far, he estimated several douzen LTL bolts would be needed. Please support your data with some form of minute fact.

Plus recall that we have NO reason to think that either SW or ST work with the same set of physics as we do. hell we know they dont because of "subspace" and "hyperspace". as well as "protomater" and "hypermatter" and that in SW there are apparently totally different elements and compositions of the universe. In voyager the look for deuterium on several occasions and are "short" on it. Problem is that deuterium is on of the isotopes of hydrogen, the most common element in the universe, and while deuterium only consitutes about 1% of the hydrogen in the universe, that is still a significant amount. As such we can conclude that either hydrogen is in low abundance in ST or that the % relationship between protium and deuterium is different, either way it means that all rules are off when it comes to what is happening in their universe compared to ours.

likewise i would say that sheilds quite obviously DO let fighters through. Simple basic SW knowledge lets you know that there are Particle sheilds and Ray sheilds. Ray shields protect against TL and ion cannon attacks and similar things, whereas particle sheids are used against larger more massive objects. As such fighters do pass through SW sheilds, the ray shields. But not the particle sheilds.

also your claims for shields vs TLs means that an ISD can take about 600 HTL shots, which is quite rediculous considering the amount of time and shots we see killing ships, plus the way we see ISDs and the like blow in the games and books where it is alot easier to take them out than 600 HTL shots which btw the amount of energy you are talking about for the teraTON (or TONNE not tonn) range is quite rediculous either way, if you assume our knowledge of physics since the maximum energy that can be produced would be a complete anihilation reaction between matter/antimatter and the amount of that that would need to be destroyed to create that energy is stupendous to say the least. (if you say "hypermatter" that is fine, except that hypermatter doesnt exist in this universe and if it did exist under our laws of physics it would still only be able to generate that same amount of energy per kilo as wiht a m/am reaction, since that amount involves the complete conversion of mass to energy)

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A lot of text huh, altough he doesnt answer with the same un civilized manner as most of the stupidest trekkie trolls his arguments still are pretty flawed dont you think?

[Mr Bean]

I'll get into his aurgments in a minute...

[Master of Ossus]

I love the part when he asks where the ICS uses a "ton" as a unit of measurement. As if it is not ludicrously easy for any intelligent person to convert joules into tons.

[Rightous Fist Of Heaven]

Bah a mod closed the topic there because its an ST mod forum, damn those guys.

[starfury]

Also you do not know what SW weapons can do against ST ships, and vise versa because you have NO idea about the true capabilities of the shields of either universe in relation to the others. For instance if ST shields are based on subspace mumbojumbo and cause things to be transported to subspace then simple plasma would not necessarily have any effect on them. Likewise if SD do what they are supposed to be capable of the empire would never have needed the death star.

HAHA, damm that was funny, ST shield based on subspace mumbjumbo

and good to see here, Righteous fist of heaven[/code]

[Soontir C'boath]

I only read half-way through....my brain felt like shutting down. It's just amazing how these people go on.

Cyaround,
Jason
P.S.- This content is not for easy going warsies as it may fry your mind.

[HemlockGrey]

Um, how DO you convert joules to tons...? They're both measurements of energy, right...?

[Rightous Fist Of Heaven]

Shit i just found out that my name is missing an e, it should be RIGHTEOUS not Rightous...damnit.

[Soontir C'boath]

Shit i just found out that my name is missing an e, it should be RIGHTEOUS not Rightous...damnit.

You think those Trekkies will say you can't spell righteous and therefore your stupid? lol

Cyaround,
Jason

[Master of Ossus]

Um, how DO you convert joules to tons...? They're both measurements of energy, right...?

They are both measures of energy, when used in such a context.

4.18E15 Joules=1 Megaton.

[Mr Bean]

Keep in mind that EU mentions the fact they where using Subspace and WARP device over 25k Years ago during the Rule of Xim the Despot


Subspace is subspace as thier is no evidance of them being fundmently diffrent from each other

Transwarp for example resembes early versions of Hyerspace, The thing ST can't do is generate the Energy nessary for those 200 Gigaton MEDIUM weapons and the Nessary energy to break into Hyperspace

[Ender]

We were having nice discussion over at TGU boards that then evolved into a debate, i just wanted to hear your oppinions of his so called arguments.

And here we go
This is a response from him when i showed the holy power of the ICS.
=============================================
I never said shit about a flash or not, i said that based on evidence from ESB where they are fireing at the asteroids, if you analyse the all the data regarding the melting of standard asteroids (mostly silicates maybe a little iron and nickel, you would use silicate to form a low end yield and iron to form a high end yield) the damage caused by TLs is about 4x the hiroshima bomb as a low end figure. In here i am paraphrasing SD.net, where they do a detailed analysis based on our universe's physics meaning that this is DIRECT evidence contradicting your statements.
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Idiotm the hiroshima bomb was about 12-18 KT. The calcs at SD.net are 60 MT. Plus the calcs here are notably low end, depending on your assumptions you get higher numbers, IE 300 MT for sillicon Dioxide.

After i kindly showed him that a single 50GT MTL shot vould blow up any Fed ship he answered using this. (Mike he thinks you are a fanatic)
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furthermore your statements about destroying ST ships are quite absurd, once again I point out that not even the most fanatical of the fanatics of SW (i am actually much more pro-starwars than it may appear that I am arguing, but i still will not allow people to present such absurd data) has claimed to me knowledge (since Mike Wong, who is known as one of the most fanatical SW people still bases his calculations ON THE LAWS OF PHYSICS, claims that it would take quite a few LTL shots to break through the shields of a federation ship, let alone the rest)
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The low end calcs say this, yes. But official numbers of the 50 GT LTL is sufficient to vape a borg cube.

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Tell me where in ESB they say "we were using our weapons on lower power" i would love to read that, i seem to recall from the NJO books that it took some hardware modifications to make the guns fire at power levels other than standard.

No, they had to modify starfighter guns, they didnt do JS to capital weapons

Likewise LS, there is more than enough EU evidence to contradict the ICS, where is it you ask? in the first "REbel dream/stand/whatever" NJO books, the Luskankya fires all of its "bottom" TLs(of all types) into the cleared area surrounding the NR camp where the Vong were attacking. if its TLs had the kind of power you are talking of, not only would the entire area surrounding the base be turned into a huge crater, but the air and the ground surrounding the target would become superheated, meaning the NR troops would be toast or at least if the base's shields could stand it, the base would float away in a pool of magma. This did not come to pass. Rather instead the area effected was only the areas hit with the shots, indicating less damage than your statements (considering that the heat generated upon the hit would be enough to do what i am talking about). Also the air around the TL blasts as the moved to their targets would have superheated and expanded at an enourmous amount, think blast wave of hiroshima amount. Unless now you wish to say that when a TL hits something and imparts energy, heat is not generated (which would then mean that my inital statements are correct and that SW goes against basic laws of physics,for our universe indicating a different set of laws meaning all bets are off)

It is specifically stated in Rebel Dream that they had to be very precise to not damage the base and that they were not sure if the gunners could accomplish this task. Misrepresentation of evidence.

continuing, we have seen on screen, tie fighters be hit by TLs. If a tl (even ltl) had the rediculous power of which you speak (beyond reason and logic for them to have) regardless of what "durasteel" is (it has been shown to be able to be damaged by quite low powered objects throughout the books so it isnt more than maybe 1-2 orders of magnitude and at the most 3 stronger than modern armor) if it was being hit by 50gt TNT even if we assume the high end of 3 orders of magnitude stronger than modern armor it would be completely vaporized, that did not happen, rather in most of the cases the ties broke into pieces, and did not completely obliterate. this indicates that the TLs while significantly stronger than anything we can consider likely are by no means of the power you are talking about.

When exactly did we see a TIE shot by a LTL?

So this means that either sw laws of physics are variable and change based on the day things are happening (and writers whims), that they are fundamentally different from our own (likely), or that TL are several orders of magnitude less powerful than your mind imagines (by far the most likely outcome) while still exceptionally powerful it wouldnt make them rediculous.

Conclusion based on misrepresentation of evidence is invalid.

Wait so now, when luke looks at ships a long way away and sees beams hit another ship we are not supposed to think that his view is relative?

Huh?

and if you are right, then still they are generating more power than is possible (unless they are taping into the ZPF which they arent cuz the powersource for an ISD is a "hypermatter fusion reactor") which still shows my point that they are using different laws of physics than we are meaning that a comparison between the two fictional universes is impossible.

So the use of fantastic substances in Wars is impossible, but particles of the week, protomatter and whatever else in trek is fully concistent with reality, huh?

(not to say that it isnt anyway. for all we know TL are easily winked out of existance by ST shields due to their lack of subspace technology, and that phasers pass through SW ones like butter because they phase their target out of the universe and SW has never faught something like that, then again, maybe a 50mt nuke could destroy an ISD and a Galaxy in 1 blow)

All becomes clear now, he is a Disciple of Graham or DOG for short. The idea that TL would be redirected into subspace is a direct lift from DITL. And assuming the phasers could batter down the shields, the neutronium in the hull would nullify a portion of the NDF effect, something established by Trek.

Ohh i just thought of one more aspect. the Vong's primary weapons are plasma spheres. These have no problem taking out NR sheilds, which means that standard weapons using modern principles, are effective agaisnt NR ships. The spheres of plasma are at most say 100m in diameter (they are never described as being even a good fraction of the size of an ISD in size) which is very generous, given that size, and the heat needed to make something move beyond plasma we would be able to calculate the total damage that plasma could cause, and i bet that is no more than 1gt.

It also takes quite alot of shots to do it in if you actually read the books. Vong plasma casters are not the one shot kills he is trying to potray.

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Light Soldier, I would be EXTREMELY interested in where the ICS says that a "ton" of damage as measurement is the same in SW as it is here, since a "laser" in SW is a plasma based weapon whereas here it is a device that emits (as well as the radiation that is emited) electromagnetic radiation of a wavelength of somewhere around 700nm, why do you think a "ton" is the same thing.

Pure, unadulterated semantics, arguing that a SW ton is not the same as an earth ton. In addition the lasers are part plasma, part laser, so his ignorance makes up his argument.

BTW the hiroshima bomb thing CAME from SD.net. and that data was based on the time taken to melt the asteroids in ESB by the "lasers" not based on flashes there buddy boy.

The flashes come into play establishing that vaporization occurs, nothing else.

200 gigatones would be a quite impossible number for a beam of plasma the lenght of HTLs traveling at the speed they travel at to impart, at the temperature necessary for that amount of damage to be given would not allow the material to remain in plasma form.

Hence why there is also the laser component to the shot

Also you do not know what SW weapons can do against ST ships, and vise versa because you have NO idea about the true capabilities of the shields of either universe in relation to the others. For instance if ST shields are based on subspace mumbojumbo and cause things to be transported to subspace then simple plasma would not necessarily have any effect on them. Likewise if SD do what they are supposed to be capable of the empire would never have needed the death star.

They old, "you can't compare them!" argument. How tiresome. Trek shields are based on gravitons, not subspace and even then subspace cannot overcome the raw power of the shot. As for the Wars bit, he obviously takes the joke figures made to counter literal interpretations of the movies seriously. Odd he accepts those numbers, which are far greater then those in ICS, yet denies ICS.

now where on EARTH did you come up wiht the LTL bolt amounts anyway? even a SW fanatic of the likes of Mike Wong doesnt even go that far, he estimated several douzen LTL bolts would be needed. Please support your data with some form of minute fact.

Intensity scaling places the LTL as 1/4th the power of a MTL and a HTL as 125x the power of the LTL. 200 GT for the MTL and do the math. Those are low-mid numbers, show him beans Mid numbers to really mess with him.

Plus recall that we have NO reason to think that either SW or ST work with the same set of physics as we do. hell we know they dont because of "subspace" and "hyperspace". as well as "protomater" and "hypermatter" and that in SW there are apparently totally different elements and compositions of the universe. In voyager the look for deuterium on several occasions and are "short" on it. Problem is that deuterium is on of the isotopes of hydrogen, the most common element in the universe, and while deuterium only consitutes about 1% of the hydrogen in the universe, that is still a significant amount. As such we can conclude that either hydrogen is in low abundance in ST or that the % relationship between protium and deuterium is different, either way it means that all rules are off when it comes to what is happening in their universe compared to ours.

Yes scientific analysis will nto be spot on do to lack of information and crappy writing. That does not mean we cannot try to find common ground though. He is obviously desperate.

likewise i would say that sheilds quite obviously DO let fighters through. Simple basic SW knowledge lets you know that there are Particle sheilds and Ray sheilds. Ray shields protect against TL and ion cannon attacks and similar things, whereas particle sheids are used against larger more massive objects. As such fighters do pass through SW sheilds, the ray shields. But not the particle sheilds.

So?

also your claims for shields vs TLs means that an ISD can take about 600 HTL shots, which is quite rediculous considering the amount of time and shots we see killing ships,

Try 26 HTL shots for the shields, unknown for the hull.

plus the way we see ISDs and the like blow in the games

Game stories are official, game mechanics are not

and books where it is alot easier to take them out than 600 HTL shots which

Actually the books support these numbers, it takes multiple full broadsides to down shields in them

btw the amount of energy you are talking about for the teraTON (or TONNE not tonn) range is quite rediculous either way, if you assume our knowledge of physics since the maximum energy that can be produced would be a complete anihilation reaction between matter/antimatter and the amount of that that would need to be destroyed to create that energy is stupendous to say the least. (if you say "hypermatter" that is fine, except that hypermatter doesnt exist in this universe and if it did exist under our laws of physics it would still only be able to generate that same amount of energy per kilo as wiht a m/am reaction, since that amount involves the complete conversion of mass to energy)

Admits to not knowing the properties of hypermatter or how it works, but then places limits for a known substance on it. What a fucking moron. That's like saying, I can crush a pop can in my hand, therefore I can bend an I Beam.

A lot of text huh, altough he doesnt answer with the same un civilized manner as most of the stupidest trekkie trolls his arguments still are pretty flawed dont you think?

Yes. And I saw that the thread is closed, but I felt like shredding this anyways.

[Howedar]

Bah a mod closed the topic there because its an ST mod forum, damn those guys.

Likewise, asshole.

An admin closed the thread on my request because it was completely off topic. Its not a Star Trek forum, its a Homeworld mod forum. This has nothing to do with Homeworld, so it was closed there and those who wished to continue to discuss the topic were referred elsewhere.

[Rightous Fist Of Heaven]

Hey Howie chill, i wasnt angry at u guys offcourse i know that its a Homeworld forum but would have just wanted to see Nap's answer, i allso understand closing a topic that has gone to a flamewar etc. but that wasnt the case in that topic. However its ok ..chill dude.

[taz]

What a tit

[FettKyle]

Does anybody know what Hypermatter really is. I heard it is taking Fanatic Trekkies and then accelerating them pass the speed of light yet keeping them Fantic Trekkies instead of energy and then annihalate them.

-A Fanatic Trekkie babbling makes the whole world blind.
-Gandhi
And with this Fanatic Trekkie physics is changed.
-Admiral Kowen
-For the Rebirth of the Ideals of Zeon. For the success of Operation Stardust. FANATIC TREKKIE I HAVE NOW RETURNED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
-The Nightmare of Solomon
-I HATE people who are Trekkies! (to bad my best friend is one.)
-Me

[Spanky The Dolphin]

What are you, 12?

[FettKyle]

I guess so

by the way replace Trekkie with matter except in the Quotes.
Side note my best friend is a Trekkie. I mean it.

-An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.
-Gandhi
-And with this blow history is changed.
-Admiral Kowen
-For the Rebirth of the Ideals of Zeon. For the success of Operation Stardust. SOLOMON I HAVE NOW RETURNED.
-Nightmare of Solomon.
-I hate people who hate people.
-Me
-It is perfectly absurd for a person who does not believe in evolution to turn around and have sexs.
-me

[omegaLancer]

hummm in nuclear physic there really is a form of matter called hypermatter.

Any form of matter who's nucleus has captured or consides of Hyperon particles. Hyperons are heavy Baryons ( particles like protons and neutrons, but made with the heavier Quarks, like the strange and charm).

They would form stable super heavy matter.

[FettKyle]

I still think what I said works I mean look to annihalate matter past the speed of light sounds like your using all the energy from the atom.

-An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.
-Gandhi

[Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi]

So, another Trekkie. Find out where he came from. We might find more.

Anyway, the icing on the cake in that argument was when he said phasers would destroy SW ships because Imperials never saw such technology.

[Coyote]

hummm in nuclear physic there really is a form of matter called hypermatter.

Any form of matter who's nucleus has captured or consides of Hyperon particles. Hyperons are heavy Baryons ( particles like protons and neutrons, but made with the heavier Quarks, like the strange and charm).

They would form stable super heavy matter.

Would this be what a friend of mine once referred to as "second-stable series matter" Supposedly amazingly dense metals that have gone through several stages of particle decay and have now solidified in their densest, most base form?

I do SF writing on my own (I'll share some sometime) and I've always been interested in what he mentioned but could never find any reference to it, he swears it exists (at least in theory) but no one else knows about it... or is this dude spending too much time with the crack pipe and the lava lamp?

[FettKyle]

Hello! what about my Hypothesis? It is from a canon source.
An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.
-Gandhi