ST:X Revelations

[NecronLord]

agagaahhaghagha I ' m haing iconvulsins.. sgstuhit. thhatss evilsss.

[CmdrWilkens]

REMANS

WTF? Where did these come from? Is this just B&B's effort to Nazify the Romulans? :evil:

No it would be an attempt to Romanize them. The history of Rome (which draws on Aeneas and the survivors of Troy) has two twin children orphaned, found by a wolf, and growing to raise the city of Rome on the Tiber. Those two orphans are Romulus and Remus. Thus you can have Romulans and Remans who would, from a viewpoint, siblings who helped found an Empire. Hwoever the exacvt relationship between Romulus and Remus after the founding of the city is something I have forgotten so how it might apply as source data for Nemisis I don't know.

Anyway it seems as if B&B finally realized that the Romulans are suppossed to be very Romanesque in their actions so eprhaps there is something a little better behind this story...but I doubt it.

[Master of Ossus]

I think that the insertion of the Remans is another political statement whereby Empires are necessarily evil, and socialisms are necessarily good.

[NecronLord]

REMANS

WTF? Where did these come from? Is this just B&B's effort to Nazify the Romulans?

No it would be an attempt to Romanize them. The history of Rome (which draws on Aeneas and the survivors of Troy) has two twin children orphaned, found by a wolf, and growing to raise the city of Rome on the Tiber. Those two orphans are Romulus and Remus. Thus you can have Romulans and Remans who would, from a viewpoint, siblings who helped found an Empire. Hwoever the exacvt relationship between Romulus and Remus after the founding of the city is something I have forgotten so how it might apply as source data for Nemisis I don't know.

Anyway it seems as if B&B finally realized that the Romulans are suppossed to be very Romanesque in their actions so eprhaps there is something a little better behind this story...but I doubt it.

I meant these big black bodied vampire beetle people, not the planet, which i knew about. Romulus killed Remus BTW. The objection is that the Romans were NOT racist. They didn't care, what mattered was wether you were a Roman citizen. And they did not herd slaves into battle.

[HemlockGrey]

Ah, yes.

If McCarthy were alive, B&B would never work again.

[CmdrWilkens]

REMANS

WTF? Where did these come from? Is this just B&B's effort to Nazify the Romulans? :evil:

No it would be an attempt to Romanize them. The history of Rome (which draws on Aeneas and the survivors of Troy) has two twin children orphaned, found by a wolf, and growing to raise the city of Rome on the Tiber. Those two orphans are Romulus and Remus. Thus you can have Romulans and Remans who would, from a viewpoint, siblings who helped found an Empire. Hwoever the exacvt relationship between Romulus and Remus after the founding of the city is something I have forgotten so how it might apply as source data for Nemisis I don't know.

Anyway it seems as if B&B finally realized that the Romulans are suppossed to be very Romanesque in their actions so eprhaps there is something a little better behind this story...but I doubt it.

I meant these big black bodied vampire beetle people, not the planet, which i knew about. Romulus killed Remus BTW. The objection is that the Romans were NOT racist. They didn't care, what mattered was wether you were a Roman citizen. And they did not herd slaves into battle.

So yet again ST took a great historical story and did a complete 180 from it in an attempt to get people to think that the writers are really hip people who can take great history and make it into wonderful modern sci-fi.

[NecronLord]

No it would be an attempt to Romanize them. The history of Rome (which draws on Aeneas and the survivors of Troy) has two twin children orphaned, found by a wolf, and growing to raise the city of Rome on the Tiber. Those two orphans are Romulus and Remus. Thus you can have Romulans and Remans who would, from a viewpoint, siblings who helped found an Empire. Hwoever the exacvt relationship between Romulus and Remus after the founding of the city is something I have forgotten so how it might apply as source data for Nemisis I don't know.

Anyway it seems as if B&B finally realized that the Romulans are suppossed to be very Romanesque in their actions so eprhaps there is something a little better behind this story...but I doubt it.

I meant these big black bodied vampire beetle people, not the planet, which i knew about. Romulus killed Remus BTW. The objection is that the Romans were NOT racist. They didn't care, what mattered was wether you were a Roman citizen. And they did not herd slaves into battle.

So yet again ST took a great historical story and did a complete 180 from it in an attempt to get people to think that the writers are really hip people who can take great history and make it into wonderful modern sci-fi.

Yes. while being unable to see that st would be better if they were killed in a freak accident.

[Master of Ossus]

ST writers are yet another demonstration that the majority of people do not understand things, but naturally assume that they do. Clearly ST writers do not understand history at all, but believe that they understand it well enough to launch a social-drama off of historical settings. Observation points to the opposite. They clearly do not understand history well enough to use it to advance their sometimes bizarre political goals.

[Doomriser]

Bizarre political goals? What recent Trek has demonstrated bizarre political goals? The only thing I see is marketing goals.

[Master of Ossus]

Bizarre political goals? What recent Trek has demonstrated bizarre political goals? The only thing I see is marketing goals.

Recent Trek has devolved continuously towards that end. TNG and DS9 were clearly making political statements, as were many episodes of TOS. Some of their objectives I agreed with, but I disagreed with many others.

[Doomriser]

Ender: Thanks, you picked up on some things that everyone including myself missed, especially the Romulan warp cores - warp cores struck me as ordinary when in fact Warbirds do use a quantum singularity. Also, while we assumed that the new Romulan warbirds were built for speed, you've provided some evidence.

Also: I know of no major inconsistences. IIRC the script does NOT have Riker flying out the window - he lives through the whole movie. The script has the dune buggy, the scorpion fighter, the scimitar, the new warbirds, Shinzon, etc... all which we now know are canon. Where are the so-called inconsistencies?

Can you cite the part in the script that mentions the new warbirds?

The script itself doesn't specifically mention that the warbirds are new. What it does tell us is:
1. One of them is named the Valdore [confirmed on official website!]
2. They get blown away by the Scimitar [multiple rumours]
3. They are fast [according to Ender's analysis]

We know they are new because of screenshots. The movie is using a new F/X company, which may explain why they aren't using the old Warbirds.

The bootleg script, released in March '02, is remarkably consistent with the trailers and official website. Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if Paramount had to go back and intentionally make changes to the movie, but they probably don't give a damn.

I strongly reccomend checking out the flash section of the official Nemesis website for interesting technical data. E.g. the Scimitar is rumoured to have 2X the firepower of a standard warbird (it should be more from what we know.)
http://nemesis.startrek.com/

[Doomriser]

Bizarre political goals? What recent Trek has demonstrated bizarre political goals? The only thing I see is marketing goals.

Recent Trek has devolved continuously towards that end. TNG and DS9 were clearly making political statements, as were many episodes of TOS. Some of their objectives I agreed with, but I disagreed with many others.

Oh, okay. I just thought that you were stating that the writers had political goals for Nemesis.

[Master of Ossus]

Bizarre political goals? What recent Trek has demonstrated bizarre political goals? The only thing I see is marketing goals.

Recent Trek has devolved continuously towards that end. TNG and DS9 were clearly making political statements, as were many episodes of TOS. Some of their objectives I agreed with, but I disagreed with many others.

Oh, okay. I just thought that you were stating that the writers had political goals for Nemesis.

Surprisingly, I was. If you look at the script, you will see that they appear to favor a state in which people are all treated in an identical manner, with no concessions made for ability or disability. I was also pointing out that they seemed to indicate that Empires were by necessity evil, and that socialisms/communisms were necessarily good. That is, to say the least, a bizarre political view to advance.

[Doomriser]

MOO: How are they advocating this belief?

Anyway, some facts from the official Nemesis website (non-canon, of course, but they're from Paramount and directly related to the movie so I'd be willing to accept them in a debate)

E-E
-launched on stardate 49827.5 from San Francisco Yards above Earth(!)
(an additional shipyard besides UP]

-almost 700m in length, 24 decks

-crew ~885

-"equipped with the latest in Starfleet advancements" [where's the batmobile armour?]

-has quantums

-max cruising speed warp 9.7

-the battle with the Son'a was "tactically challenging"

Romulus

-the D'Deridex class is 1,280 m in length (nearly 2X the length of a GCS) with 115 decks and a crew of 1,650. The QS allows a max. cruising speed of warp factor 9. Weaponry consists of plasma torpedoes and disruptor cannons.

-"Starfleet intelligence has been receiving sporadic reports surrounding new starships of the Romulan Empire. The reports range from these ships being modified warbirds to ones of completely new design...one ship in particular is possibly of Reman origin and design."
(the new class of warbirds - are they modified D'Deridex's? Is that possible? See the section on modified warbirds, suggesting that some DDxs are much faster.)

There's other stuff on the site too







-

[Master of Ossus]

They appear to be advocating this belief by equating the Romulan Empire with being evil, and further connecting that Empire directly with Rome (and the Vulcan peoples with the democratic Greeks, indirectly), and by having people like Picard toast to things like "Brave New Worlds." Clearly the Federation advocates a system that is democratic to the point where no concessions are made to ability or disability.

[Evil Jerk]

E-E
-launched on stardate 49827.5 from San Francisco Yards above Earth(!)
(an additional shipyard besides UP]

Ha ha.. even more Earth centralisation, with a shipyard that builds their most advanced ship no less.

[HemlockGrey]

...was also pointing out that they seemed to indicate that Empires were by necessity evil

The concept of an empire is a dictorial state where one man has absolute control over the lives of countless citizens, and where each man has only whatever freedoms the emperor deigns to give him.

Even if you wind up with someone like Augustus instead of Caligula, I still wouldn't want to live in an Empire.

[Kamakazie Sith]

E-E
-launched on stardate 49827.5 from San Francisco Yards above Earth(!)
(an additional shipyard besides UP]

Ha ha.. even more Earth centralisation, with a shipyard that builds their most advanced ship no less.

Oh no they have a shipyard over their home planet

[Evil Jerk]

E-E
-launched on stardate 49827.5 from San Francisco Yards above Earth(!)
(an additional shipyard besides UP]

Ha ha.. even more Earth centralisation, with a shipyard that builds their most advanced ship no less.

Oh no they have a shipyard over their home planet

It's called putting all your eggs in one basket.
I mentioned it because this may confirm my opinions in a previous debate that the destruction of Earth would not only take out it's entire government and military command structures, but would also cripple part of their ship building abilities.

[Patrick Degan]

E-E
-launched on stardate 49827.5 from San Francisco Yards above Earth(!)
(an additional shipyard besides UP]

Ha ha.. even more Earth centralisation, with a shipyard that builds their most advanced ship no less.

Oh no they have a shipyard over their home planet

I have to agree; that is a bit of a reach for criticism. After all, the San Franscisco starship yards were established as far back as TOS. It was, after all, the site where the original USS Enterprise was built.

[Evil Jerk]

I have to agree; that is a bit of a reach for criticism. After all, the San Franscisco starship yards were established as far back as TOS. It was, after all, the site where the original USS Enterprise was built.

But, it was never confirmed that SF shipyards ever went beyond smaller ship construction, or that it still even existed until now (maybe, it's probably not canon if they don't mention it or it isn't on the dedication plaque).

It wasn't really a criticism as such anyway, I was just reminded about how some on the Trek side have said that Fed ship construction would not be affected if Earth was destroyed, like I've said.

[Patrick Degan]

I have to agree; that is a bit of a reach for criticism. After all, the San Franscisco starship yards were established as far back as TOS. It was, after all, the site where the original USS Enterprise was built.

But, it was never confirmed that SF shipyards ever went beyond smaller ship construction, or that it still even existed until now (maybe, it's probably not canon if they don't mention it or it isn't on the dedication plaque).

It is indeed canon. It's engraved onto the Enterprise's commissioning plaque on the bridge:

USS ENTERPRISE NCC 1701
STARSHIP CLASS
SAN FRANSCISCO SHIPYARDS, EARTH

So for Nemesis, they suddenly decided to remember that starships were built there.

[Typhonis 1]

They may not have much of a shipyard around Earth only starbase 1 and space station McKinney ...However it seems like Starfleet Academys main facility is on Earth and well get rid of it and they could loose valuable t3echs and such..also whats to keep it from frying Mars?

[Tsyroc]

Wasn't the Enterprise D built at Utopia Planitia Shipyard in orbit around Mars? That would help spread out some of Starfleet's assets, although it just means that taking out the system would cripple the Federation even more than just taking out Earth.



.

[NecronLord]

...was also pointing out that they seemed to indicate that Empires were by necessity evil

The concept of an empire is a dictorial state where one man has absolute control over the lives of countless citizens, and where each man has only whatever freedoms the emperor deigns to give him.

Even if you wind up with someone like Augustus instead of Caligula, I still wouldn't want to live in an Empire.

The original concept, and indeed the origin of the word is 'Supreme Power.' Rome had an empire before the rise of ceasar. It does not need a dictator. However dictators like to call their dominions empires...