Ground combat

BlkbrryTheGreat · Post by **BlkbrryTheGreat** » 2003-12-03 10:54am

Keep in mind the devestating effects that an AT-AT would have on any ground attackers. Armored vechiles have not been used in warfare for centuries and this thing LITERALLY causes minor earthquakes when it walks.

Robert Treder · Post by **Robert Treder** » 2003-12-03 07:34pm

BlkbrryTheGreat wrote:Keep in mind the devestating effects that an AT-AT would have on any ground attackers. Armored vechiles have not been used in warfare for centuries and this thing LITERALLY causes minor earthquakes when it walks.

This is a nitpick, and your point about psychological terror certainly holds true, but does the AT-AT really LITERALLY cause minor earthquakes? I mean, I know that it literally quakes the ground, but does it actually cause the tectonic plates to shift? On Hoth VI it was crossing a glacier, I don't think it would have been able to affect the ground itself.
Are there any quotes indicating that they cause earthquakes, or were you just taking poetic license?

darthdavid · Post by **darthdavid** » 2003-12-03 09:25pm

Noooo, he was serious. Everyone knows that something slightly bigger than a large house and weighing many times as much will shift techtonic plates.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2003-12-03 09:33pm

darthdavid wrote:Noooo, he was serious. Everyone knows that something slightly bigger than a large house and weighing many times as much will shift techtonic plates.

Are you even going to contribute something other then bullshit sniping?

And slightly bigger then a large house?!

darthdavid · Post by **darthdavid** » 2003-12-03 09:39pm

They're like 40-50 ft tall and a little longer. And by large house i meant never land

.

Fine, real contribution.

Federation is pn0wn3d. ATATs and ATSTs womp feddie troops and the batillion can hold the captol city untill reinforcements arive. Any air attack should be destroyed by the ATAT, afterall federation shuttles are probably less well armed than snowspeeders, have no real armor to speak of, weak sheilds and no tow cable to ensnare ATAT's with so flak bursts should take them out poste haste. Ground troops attempting to re claim the capitol are slaughtered and if they do overwhelme the troops with numbers just wait a few days for 2x as many imperial troops to arrive and try again.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2003-12-03 10:12pm

AT-ATs are really uniquely ill-suited to shooting down attacking aircraft, or at least they should be. Their firing arc is extremely limited. And snowspeeders aren't shielded. Shuttles are. The Empire would still win, but you just spouted a load of gibberish.

Holding a single city, capital or no, does not equate to subjugating an entire planet. The Imperials would be extremely difficult to dislodge, but nor could they execute total planetary conquest in such limited numbers. It would be a standoff.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-12-03 10:16pm

Rogue 9 wrote:Holding a single city, capital or no, does not equate to subjugating an entire planet. The Imperials would be extremely difficult to dislodge, but nor could they execute total planetary conquest in such limited numbers. It would be a standoff.

Actually, the Romulans expected to conquer Vulcan with just 2000 soldiers. It's entirely possible that Federation worlds are entirely unarmed as a condition of membership, so that security is provided by Starfleet. Notice how, when they wanted to militarize the Earth in "Paradise Lost", they had to beam down security men with rifles from an orbiting starship. Where were the armed police? The militias? The standing army?

It's possible that a small Imperial force really could conquer an entire Federation planet, particularly given their tendency toward extreme centralization. Seize the central power plant, and you have control of the entire planetary power grid. They love putting all their eggs in one basket. Without some kind of space-based support, the whole planet's population might find themselves helpless. What are they going to do, throw rocks?

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-12-03 10:23pm

I don't remember the Romulans expecting to conquer Vulcan. I remember the Romulans expecting to hold portions of Vulcan and be dug in deep enough with hostages to make removing them difficult.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2003-12-03 10:47pm

And I don't remember that at all. Of course, that doesn't mean much. I haven't watched every Trek episode. Heck, it'd surprise me if I'd watched more than half the TNG episodes.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-12-03 11:00pm

Alyeska wrote:I don't remember the Romulans expecting to conquer Vulcan. I remember the Romulans expecting to hold portions of Vulcan and be dug in deep enough with hostages to make removing them difficult.

They called it an "invasion force", not a guerilla group.

SELA: our forces will seize control before anyone realizes what has happened.

From "Reunification Part 2". It sounds like they intended to do more than grab some hostages.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-12-03 11:35pm

Darth Wong wrote:
Alyeska wrote:I don't remember the Romulans expecting to conquer Vulcan. I remember the Romulans expecting to hold portions of Vulcan and be dug in deep enough with hostages to make removing them difficult.
They called it an "invasion force", not a guerilla group.

SELA: our forces will seize control before anyone realizes what has happened.

From "Reunification Part 2". It sounds like they intended to do more than grab some hostages.

Bah, more of the revisitionst crap with the Vulcans being pacifists no doubt.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-12-03 11:37pm

Alyeska wrote:Bah, more of the revisitionst crap with the Vulcans being pacifists no doubt.

I never pretended it was a well-written episode

The Kernel · Post by **The Kernel** » 2003-12-03 11:56pm

Darth Wong wrote:
Alyeska wrote:Bah, more of the revisitionst crap with the Vulcans being pacifists no doubt.
I never pretended it was a well-written episode

Indeed, you'd think that if they were going to send a cloaked Warbird anyways, they might as well have just forgotten about the Vulcan ships and sent a fleet of Warbirds instead loaded with troops. I know about the Taychon detection grid, but if they can get one ship across, they can get a fleet across too.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2003-12-04 12:13am

Alyeska wrote: Much of this stems from the combined arms capabilities of the SW forces. They have dedicated infantry forces and because of this they have a wide range of assets for their infantry.

Except your statement indicated it was an infantry vs mechanized ground force or armored ground force (IE Tanks.) I simply pointed out that even on a pure infantry vs infantry basis, the Empire is still superior.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-12-04 12:39am

Connor MacLeod wrote:
Alyeska wrote: Much of this stems from the combined arms capabilities of the SW forces. They have dedicated infantry forces and because of this they have a wide range of assets for their infantry.
Except your statement indicated it was an infantry vs mechanized ground force or armored ground force (IE Tanks.) I simply pointed out that even on a pure infantry vs infantry basis, the Empire is still superior.

True, but I also stated that the philsophies behind the SW ground forces already give them a significant advantage.

harbringer · Post by **harbringer** » 2003-12-04 01:07am

Armour can be defeated by infantry given the right circumstances. Confining terrain a weapon that can reliably punch through the armour (here the armour and shielding on an AT-AT) and of course the will and morale to do it. This can be made easier or harder by the actions of the defender. The armoured convoys used in vietnam and the para's in world war 2 are both examples of each side of this. The question is 1) would the empire give the federation for example the opportunity and 2) would they be able to penetrate the armour.

That federation citizens would fight is proven by the marqui's so I think even the federation planets would resist. But untrained "militia" or insurgents won't be a match even 10 or 20 to 1 stormtrooper. As star fleet would not be able to stop a invasion effectively how few troops could at least in the short term subjugate a planet in the AQ?. I believe that a single battalion fully equiped with walkers and weapons should beat most planets. But how many casualties would they take?, what if anything could starfleet and or the planets themselves really do to stop any successfull invasion?. Would the klingons or romulans have any better luck?.

Lastly what would you do as the commander of the Imperial force to win?.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-12-04 01:13am

harbringer wrote:That federation citizens would fight is proven by the marqui's so I think even the federation planets would resist.

The Maquis were frontier settlers. Such people are not indicative of the general population for the simple reason that they chose to leave a cushy existence for life on the frontier, while the others did not.

But untrained "militia" or insurgents won't be a match even 10 or 20 to 1 stormtrooper. As star fleet would not be able to stop a invasion effectively how few troops could at least in the short term subjugate a planet in the AQ?. I believe that a single battalion fully equiped with walkers and weapons should beat most planets. But how many casualties would they take?, what if anything could starfleet and or the planets themselves really do to stop any successfull invasion?

Put standing armies and militias on the ground, for starters.

Would the klingons or romulans have any better luck?

Romulan ground forces are a big question mark, so I think we have to leave that as "unresolved". The Klingons, on the other hand, are a known joke. Only a Klingon brings a knife to a gunfight.

Lastly what would you do as the commander of the Imperial force to win?.

Move swiftly to seize control of centralized government-run institutions such as the centralized power grid control stations and the government. From there, declare a coup and install yourself as the new head of state. Shut off power to any regions which protest.

Stuart Mackey · Post by **Stuart Mackey** » 2003-12-04 01:37am

Darth Wong wrote:
Rogue 9 wrote:Holding a single city, capital or no, does not equate to subjugating an entire planet. The Imperials would be extremely difficult to dislodge, but nor could they execute total planetary conquest in such limited numbers. It would be a standoff.
Actually, the Romulans expected to conquer Vulcan with just 2000 soldiers. It's entirely possible that Federation worlds are entirely unarmed as a condition of membership, so that security is provided by Starfleet. Notice how, when they wanted to militarize the Earth in "Paradise Lost", they had to beam down security men with rifles from an orbiting starship. Where were the armed police? The militias? The standing army?

It's possible that a small Imperial force really could conquer an entire Federation planet, particularly given their tendency toward extreme centralization. Seize the central power plant, and you have control of the entire planetary power grid. They love putting all their eggs in one basket. Without some kind of space-based support, the whole planet's population might find themselves helpless. What are they going to do, throw rocks?

Ahh, Mike, 800 Imp troops could devestate a fedie force if similar size, but that is not the same as controling a planet. The Imps would need serious reinforcement to do that.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-12-04 01:48am

Stuart Mackey wrote:Ahh, Mike, 800 Imp troops could devestate a fedie force if similar size, but that is not the same as controling a planet. The Imps would need serious reinforcement to do that.

A regular planet, yes. But a totally disarmed Federation planet with a ridiculously overcentralized administration and infrastructure, populated by sheep who freak out when they see soldiers with guns on street corners during a war?

Stuart Mackey · Post by **Stuart Mackey** » 2003-12-04 01:54am

Darth Wong wrote:
Stuart Mackey wrote:Ahh, Mike, 800 Imp troops could devestate a fedie force if similar size, but that is not the same as controling a planet. The Imps would need serious reinforcement to do that.
A regular planet, yes. But a totally disarmed Federation planet with a ridiculously overcentralized administration and infrastructure, populated by sheep who freak out when they see soldiers with guns on street corners during a war?

Well when you put it like that....

Stuart Mackey · Post by **Stuart Mackey** » 2003-12-04 01:56am

Stuart Mackey wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:
Stuart Mackey wrote:Ahh, Mike, 800 Imp troops could devestate a fedie force if similar size, but that is not the same as controling a planet. The Imps would need serious reinforcement to do that.
A regular planet, yes. But a totally disarmed Federation planet with a ridiculously overcentralized administration and infrastructure, populated by sheep who freak out when they see soldiers with guns on street corners during a war?
Well when you put it like that....

Mind you, it would be interesting to see how long it would take to mobilize a planet against said imp force given such criteria.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2003-12-04 01:57am

Stuart Mackey wrote:
Stuart Mackey wrote:
Darth Wong wrote: A regular planet, yes. But a totally disarmed Federation planet with a ridiculously overcentralized administration and infrastructure, populated by sheep who freak out when they see soldiers with guns on street corners during a war?
Well when you put it like that....
Mind you, it would be interesting to see how long it would take to mobilize a planet against said imp force given such criteria.

According to Doctor Bashir in 5 generations there would be a resistance on earth to overthrow the Dominion. (The ep. with the crazy genetically engineered geniuses when they wargame out the DOminion War) Takes quite a bit to motivate these sheep.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-12-04 01:58am

Stuart Mackey wrote:Mind you, it would be interesting to see how long it would take to mobilize a planet against said imp force given such criteria.

It would depend on how the new rulers treated them. If nothing much seemed to initially change in their living conditions, you'd have a hell of a time mobilizing anyone to do anything. Particularly when they're so badly underequipped and inexperienced for the conflict. If it was written by one of the X-Wing novel authors, the new Imperial rulers would immediately start randomly rounding up peoples' children and shooting them, so there would eventually be organized resistance. In 5 generations or so

The Kernel · Post by **The Kernel** » 2003-12-04 02:01am

Darth Wong wrote:
Stuart Mackey wrote:Mind you, it would be interesting to see how long it would take to mobilize a planet against said imp force given such criteria.
It would depend on how the new rulers treated them. If nothing much seemed to initially change in their living conditions, you'd have a hell of a time mobilizing anyone to do anything. Particularly when they're so badly underequipped and inexperienced for the conflict. If it was written by one of the X-Wing novel authors, the new Imperial rulers would immediately start randomly rounding up peoples' children and shooting them, so there would eventually be organized resistance. In 5 generations or so

Bah, a bunch of mindless Rebel propeganda. The real Empire would crush all resistance, then offer stability, peace and captitalism to the heathens under a benevolent Imperial Warlord. Praise God and pass the plasma rifles.

Stuart Mackey · Post by **Stuart Mackey** » 2003-12-04 04:58am

Stravo wrote:
According to Doctor Bashir in 5 generations there would be a resistance on earth to overthrow the Dominion. (The ep. with the crazy genetically engineered geniuses when they wargame out the DOminion War) Takes quite a bit to motivate these sheep.

Well there is one way to motivate sheep, but I am pretty sure thats not quite legal