A new Prohibition Era?

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2003-12-05 11:58am

FoxNews wrote:Five years of Prohibition have had, at least, this one benign effect: they have completely disposed of all the favorite arguments of the Prohibitionists. None of the great boons and usufructs that were to follow the passage of the Eighteenth Amendment has come to pass. There is not less drunkenness in the Republic, but more. There is not less crime, but more. There is not less insanity, but more. The cost of government is not smaller, but vastly greater. Respect for law has not increased, but diminished."

Mencken was right, which is why Prohibition was repealed in 1933, 70 years ago tomorrow.

No amount of legislation could curb America's taste for booze. What Prohibition did do was create a lucrative black market for booze and invite the ancillary crime -- organized and otherwise -- that comes with it. The corruption of the bootlegging industry infected every level of law enforcement. Local cops and prosecutors, members of Congress (which had its own private stock of liquor) -- even President William Harding's attorney general -- were buyable, bribable, and to coin a word, imbibable.

Forcing Americans to go underground to satiate their thirst for alcohol also brought with it a major public health problem. Americans drank harder, because they had to get their fix in one sitting, and didn't know where or when they'd get their next drink. And they drank more potent stuff -- bathtub gin and other home-brewed spirits, liquor that was unchecked by market forces or regulators, and so was not only vile and potent, but could at times be downright poisonous. By the mid-1920s, hospitalizations and deaths from alcohol poisoning soared. Some say we have Prohibition to thank for the success of the cocktail, as the only available alcohol was virtually undrinkable straight-up.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-12-05 12:08pm

Yeah, so?

RedImperator · Post by **RedImperator** » 2003-12-05 01:26pm

I'm surprised to see an editorial like that on Fox News. I found this line particularly interesting:

The number of people behind bars in the United States for drug crimes alone now exceeds the number of people in prison in Europe for all crimes combined.

There's a new fun fact to use in debates.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-12-05 01:35pm

Worse, I recall reading somewhere that there are more people in prison in total now than at the height of Stalin's Terror in Russia. A lot of those are drug offenders, obviously.

Xenophobe3691 · Post by **Xenophobe3691** » 2003-12-05 02:17pm

Durran Korr wrote:Worse, I recall reading somewhere that there are more people in prison in total now than at the height of Stalin's Terror in Russia. A lot of those are drug offenders, obviously.

Holy Shit man, could you please tell us where you saw this? That's some fuckin sick shit...

Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi · Post by **Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi** » 2003-12-05 03:56pm

I'd say that this is a lot like Prohibition, except that people learned from Prohibition and repealed it.

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2003-12-05 04:06pm

And I get gyp for people saying my country is a fucking Oceania analogue. Land of the Free my arse.

Frank Hipper · Post by **Frank Hipper** » 2003-12-05 04:16pm

Xenophobe3691 wrote:Holy Shit man, could you please tell us where you saw this? That's some fuckin sick shit...

Sick? You call victory sick?
Every foot of concertina wire strung in the furtherance of imprisoning drug offenders is a step towards freedom.

There is no analogy between The War On Drugs and Prohibition. Prohibition restricted the sale of alchohol, not drugs.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-12-05 04:27pm

Durran Korr wrote:Worse, I recall reading somewhere that there are more people in prison in total now than at the height of Stalin's Terror in Russia. A lot of those are drug offenders, obviously.

Possible, though of course Stalin usually just had them shot rather imprisioned so thats not saying too much.

Xenophobe3691 · Post by **Xenophobe3691** » 2003-12-05 04:56pm

Frank Hipper wrote:Sick? You call victory sick?
Every foot of concertina wire strung in the furtherance of imprisoning drug offenders is a step towards freedom.

There is no analogy between The War On Drugs and Prohibition. Prohibition restricted the sale of alchohol, not drugs.

In common speech (at least where I live), sick is both bad and good. Don't ask me why.

Oh, and there is an analogy. Both tried banning a substance that people wanted to use, and both failed.

RedImperator · Post by **RedImperator** » 2003-12-05 05:00pm

Xenophobe3691 wrote:
Frank Hipper wrote:Sick? You call victory sick?
Every foot of concertina wire strung in the furtherance of imprisoning drug offenders is a step towards freedom.

There is no analogy between The War On Drugs and Prohibition. Prohibition restricted the sale of alchohol, not drugs.
In common speech (at least where I live), sick is both bad and good. Don't ask me why.

Oh, and there is an analogy. Both tried banning a substance that people wanted to use, and both failed.

Frank is being sarcastic. It's understandable that you'd miss that--he's got that bombastic government propagnda shill voice down perfectly. Frank, if I didn't know better, I'd think you were one of the enemy.

Lord Woodlouse · Post by **Lord Woodlouse** » 2003-12-06 05:53pm

So long as you get gangsters with tommy guns again, everything is good.

*listens to Bugsy Malone music*

darthdavid · Post by **darthdavid** » 2003-12-06 11:40pm

Sadly now all you'll hear is the distinctive sound of an ak-47.

Wicked Pilot · Post by **Wicked Pilot** » 2003-12-06 11:49pm

Do you hear that? That rumble is a stampede of the 'drugs are bad, mmkay' lobby approaching this thread.

darthdavid · Post by **darthdavid** » 2003-12-07 12:20am

Wicked Pilot wrote:Do you hear that? That rumble is a stampede of the 'drugs are bad, mmkay' lobby approaching this thread.

Hear that? The sound of thousands of people from sad lobby staring in rapt silence at a shiny object they happened to pass on their way to this thread.

darthdavid · Post by **darthdavid** » 2003-12-07 12:20am

*said

Axis Kast · Post by **Axis Kast** » 2003-12-07 12:36am

I’m not exactly certain, so I’ll ask before continuing any further … I assume that a majority of those who have spoken up to this point advocate the reduction or abolition of criminal penalties for so-called “substance abusers” or drug offenders, and support the legalization of marijuana?

RedImperator · Post by **RedImperator** » 2003-12-07 12:39am

Axis Kast wrote:I’m not exactly certain, so I’ll ask before continuing any further … I assume that a majority of those who have spoken up to this point advocate the reduction or abolition of criminal penalties for so-called “substance abusers” or drug offenders, and support the legalization of marijuana?

I can't speak for everone else, but that's my position almost exactly. I'd extend legalization further than marijuana, but marijuana legalization I'm dead set on, while the others are still negotiable.

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2003-12-07 12:41am

I?m not exactly certain, so I?ll ask before continuing any further ? I assume that a majority of those who have spoken up to this point advocate the reduction or abolition of criminal penalties for so-called ?substance abusers? or drug offenders, and support the legalization of marijuana?

Pretty much, and I would wager that some of them (myself included) would support the legalization of cocaine, heroin, and crack, as well.

Axis Kast · Post by **Axis Kast** » 2003-12-07 12:49am

Because you regard drug use as relatively benign in comparison to the charges levied, or because you feel it's a useless fight?

Throwing up your hands in resignation and then resigning yourself to heavy taxation and regulation of marijuana is one thing, but throwing care to the winds on the grounds that people should be permitted to hurt themselves is quite another.

We don't yet know the full effects of marijuana use, and as was reported today, heavy drugs can cause mutation of DNA. Many such drug users become a burden on collective society and endanger not merely themselves, but also those for whom they are responsible.

RedImperator · Post by **RedImperator** » 2003-12-07 01:04am

Axis Kast wrote:Because you regard drug use as relatively benign in comparison to the charges levied, or because you feel it's a useless fight?

Both.

Throwing up your hands in resignation and then resigning yourself to heavy taxation and regulation of marijuana is one thing, but throwing care to the winds on the grounds that people should be permitted to hurt themselves is quite another.

And why shouldn't they? Their bodies are their own the same as their minds. If they cause harm to others, punish them for that.

We don't yet know the full effects of marijuana use, and as was reported today, heavy drugs can cause mutation of DNA.

Decades of study of marijuana's effects have shown virtually no long term harmful effects save from a possible increased risk of lung cancer, which can be avoided by injesting the drug orally. And a single study of cocaine and ecstacy proves precisely zero about marijuana. Yes, we might someday discover it has some horrible effect that somehow nobody noticed over the last 10,000 years, but the same could be said for virtually anything. The burden is on the prohibitionist to prove that the drug is dangerous enough to be banned. Appeals to ignorance don't cut it.

Many such drug users become a burden on collective society and endanger not merely themselves, but also those for whom they are responsible.

I fail to see how imprisoning them makes them less of a burden on society. Even if I agreed that people shouldn't be allowed to take drugs, I wouldn't agree that we should use the most expensive, least effective method of controlling drug use.

Einhander Sn0m4n · Post by **Einhander Sn0m4n** » 2003-12-07 01:48am

Axis Kast wrote:I’m not exactly certain, so I’ll ask before continuing any further … I assume that a majority of those who have spoken up to this point advocate the reduction or abolition of criminal penalties for so-called “substance abusers” or drug offenders, and support the legalization of marijuana?

My position is exactly like RedImperator's.

Mind if I inquire what your exact position is on the subject matter?

Einhander Sn0m4n · Post by **Einhander Sn0m4n** » 2003-12-07 02:10am

Just in case i didn't make my position crystal clear in my earlier post: Prisons are Big Business in this country. Who wants to bet that someone's making a killing by violating the human rights of millions of nonviolent people who would never hurt another human being?

I find it appaling that the U.S. Government sees it morally just to expose nonviolent drug 'offenders' to violent criminals with no regard for human life. And I'm not just talking about the inmates, I'm leveling squarely at the IRS, DEA, FBI, CIA, and all their cronies. Every single day they trample the Constitution as if it never existed and never will.

And for what? Not to 'punish' people who never did anything actually wrong. These corrupt institutions make money caging human beings who never deserve such a fate, and the effects of such imprisonment never fade from the scarred people that result.

And just who pays the bill for all these crimes against humanity? You and I do, every time we pay taxes. The same people the government is supposed to protect. Talk about playing both sides against the middle, eh? Morality in the Government? Nope, not today, not ever.

SPOOFE · Post by **SPOOFE** » 2003-12-07 02:33am

Hear that? The sound of thousands of people from sad lobby staring in rapt silence at a shiny object they happened to pass on their way to this thread.

Ah, yes, same old Ignorant stereotypes. Here's a question: How many people have died from marijuana overdose?

Einhander Sn0m4n · Post by **Einhander Sn0m4n** » 2003-12-07 02:38am

SPOOFE wrote:
Hear that? The sound of thousands of people from sad lobby staring in rapt silence at a shiny object they happened to pass on their way to this thread.
Ah, yes, same old Ignorant stereotypes. Here's a question: How many people have died from marijuana overdose?

And did you know the LD50-dose-to-Intoxication-dose of Marijuana is around 40000 to 1 while Alcohol's is only 10 to 1?