Missile Defense - Fuck in the arse or good defense strategy?

[Illuminatus Primus]

Is it a waste? No, given states like North Korea and Iran it's something we might well need down the road. As nukes and long range ballistic missles spread to progressively more unstable countries the chances that some psycho deciding to take world down with him grow. It's for circumstances like that we'd need it and which it's able enough.

Its more useful for rendering said "rogue nations'" strategic deterrant useless. Say Iran develops nukes, and thinks they can invade Iraq after we leave and we won't do shit because they have ballistic missles. Well, some effective interceptors renders the deterrant to uselessness, allowing the U.S. more strategic options.

[Crown]

Check it out, three blind men trying to describe an elephant!

[MKSheppard]

Check it out, three blind men trying to describe an elephant!

....

[Illuminatus Primus]

Let me make this very simple for you guys. YOU HAVE NO FUCKING CLUE HOW THE SYSTEM WORKS IN DETAIL! Neither do I, neither does anyone without the proper clearence. What I do know is that no one would be so stupid to design a system without any backup against losing a fucking credit card. Think about it, would you design such a system?

Kernel can use the Argument from Ignorance Fallacy. Who is suprised?

You can't claim "we don't know all the details, thus concluding anything is pointless." The burden of proof is on you to prove the existance of easy-to-use redundent systems.

[Crown]

Check it out, three blind men trying to describe an elephant!

....

It should be obvious Shep, neither of you know how the system works, and yet all of you claim that that's how the system works, rather funny isn't it?

[Crown]

Let me make this very simple for you guys. YOU HAVE NO FUCKING CLUE HOW THE SYSTEM WORKS IN DETAIL! Neither do I, neither does anyone without the proper clearence. What I do know is that no one would be so stupid to design a system without any backup against losing a fucking credit card. Think about it, would you design such a system?

Kernel can use the Argument from Ignorance Fallacy. Who is suprised?

You can't claim "we don't know all the details, thus concluding anything is pointless." The burden of proof is on you to prove the existance of easy-to-use redundent systems.

Kernel is hardly alone in this Primus.

But here is a thought for everyone, wouldn't Gore have had his own card? For the sole reason that he becomes de-facto CiC if the President is unable to do his job?

[Vympel]

Check it out, three blind men trying to describe an elephant!

ROFL good call.

[Illuminatus Primus]

But here is a thought for everyone, wouldn't Gore have had his own card? For the sole reason that he becomes de-facto CiC if the President is unable to do his job?

No. Haven't you been reading? The President is on purpose THE ONLY man who can order a nuclear strike. There is such lengths taken to protect the President and the rest of the command structure precisely because response become difficult after that.

And besides, the Colonel was handcuffed to the codes for years. I trust him that it was of grave importance that he always had his card. I trust him, because, y'know, he was an intimate part of the launch process.

If you have actual evidence to the contrary, instead of bullshit maybes thrown out to shoot down, which are the essence of the Appeal to Ignorance Fallacy, then present it.

[Iceberg]

You know, no matter how heinous you try to make it sound that the President lost his wallet - and as soon as he realized it was missing they searched the West Wing until it was found, which is what you would expect considering that wallet held the key to ending life as we know it - THE GUY LOST HIS FLIPPIN' WALLET. That's not an example of "dereliction of duty" of the president. Frankly, Patterson sounds like he had an axe to grind and went out of his way to interpret events in the worst possible manner (going so far as to make up what is by other accounts a fictitious event).

He got paid by Regnery Publishing to write a book smearing Clinton. That makes his word automatically suspect.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Again, you expect me to trust your slander to his reliability over what he thinks is a severe fuck-up as the man trusted with briefcase?

He's an authority on the matter more than you. I think you need to prove actual factual error or dishonesty rather than these distortions.

[Iceberg]

Again, you expect me to trust your slander to his reliability over what he thinks is a severe fuck-up as the man trusted with briefcase?

He's an authority on the matter more than you. I think you need to prove actual factual error or dishonesty rather than these distortions.

SANDY BERGER DISAGREES WITH HIS VERSION OF THE GOLF STORY, DUMBFUCK. Patterson's job was to hold the football - no more, no less. Berger was the fucking NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISOR. I think - and maybe I'm wrong on this - but I'm pretty damn sure - that the NSA, who is PART of the day to day decision making process, has a better idea what's going on than a guy whose job it is to keep the launch key within arm's reach of the President.

[Illuminatus Primus]

SANDY BERGER DISAGREES WITH HIS VERSION OF THE GOLF STORY, DUMBFUCK. Patterson's job was to hold the football - no more, no less. Berger was the fucking NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISOR. I think - and maybe I'm wrong on this - but I'm pretty damn sure - that the NSA, who is PART of the day to day decision making process, has a better idea what's going on than a guy whose job it is to keep the launch key within arm's reach of the President.

Wow. This was a nice Iceberg Rant (tm) about the Golf thing when my posts were and had been directed solely over the codes issue, where he is the dominant authority among those who've spoken on the subject.

[Vympel]

"The day the Lewinsky scandal broke, Clinton was to trade in his 'biscuit' with the nuclear launch codes. But they were missing."- that's what this author said.

Isn't it amazing how interested parties can spin the shit out of something like this?

"Oh, America was in danger! Oh, what a dereliction of duty! He must be impeached!"

Give me a fucking break. He lost his fucking wallet and new codes were already in the offing or already activated.

[The Kernel]

But here is a thought for everyone, wouldn't Gore have had his own card? For the sole reason that he becomes de-facto CiC if the President is unable to do his job?

No. Haven't you been reading? The President is on purpose THE ONLY man who can order a nuclear strike. There is such lengths taken to protect the President and the rest of the command structure precisely because response become difficult after that.

And besides, the Colonel was handcuffed to the codes for years. I trust him that it was of grave importance that he always had his card. I trust him, because, y'know, he was an intimate part of the launch process.

If you have actual evidence to the contrary, instead of bullshit maybes thrown out to shoot down, which are the essence of the Appeal to Ignorance Fallacy, then present it.

1) What if Clinton dies? How does it switch over to Gore?

2) The Colonel was one of several people who carried the football for Clinton. It isn't a 24 hr. assignment.

3) The way he spoke about Clinton losing the card made me think he was speaking as a soldier talking down to a civilian. He never said in any quote I can find that it was difficult to replace the card, merely that it was bad on principle.

4) I wasn't arguing an appeal to Ignorance; we can argue this all we want and still come up with certain conclusions, but unless we know how that part of the mechanism works, we will need to work from logic about its capabilities and limitations.

5) How do you think Clinton replaced his card? It had to have been done eventually, so how do you think it was done? You can't argue that its impossible, so the only question is if it is an easy thing to replace or something that takes a long time to do. My belief is that it is something that CAN be replaced on short notice, it is simply not something they want to have happen very often.

My entire reason for bringing out that quote was because it shows a certain amount of disdain for Clinton, while Stormbringer was arguing that this man had no reason to feel hostile towards his ex-CIC.

[Nathan F]

You know, no matter how heinous you try to make it sound that the President lost his wallet - and as soon as he realized it was missing they searched the West Wing until it was found, which is what you would expect considering that wallet held the key to ending life as we know it - THE GUY LOST HIS FLIPPIN' WALLET. That's not an example of "dereliction of duty" of the president. Frankly, Patterson sounds like he had an axe to grind and went out of his way to interpret events in the worst possible manner (going so far as to make up what is by other accounts a fictitious event).

He got paid by Regnery Publishing to write a book smearing Clinton. That makes his word automatically suspect.

Why don't you go read it? You'd find that he does not go out of his way to find anything wrong. He simply points out the observations he made.

Yes, the President lost his wallet, which he SHOULD NOT HAVE DONE. It's a matter of national security. This isn't like losing the keys to your house, you know.

[Crown]

But here is a thought for everyone, wouldn't Gore have had his own card? For the sole reason that he becomes de-facto CiC if the President is unable to do his job?

No. Haven't you been reading?

Of course I have been reading, that's where the comment of 'three blind men' came from.

The President is on purpose THE ONLY man who can order a nuclear strike. There is such lengths taken to protect the President and the rest of the command structure precisely because response become difficult after that.

And besides, the Colonel was handcuffed to the codes for years. I trust him that it was of grave importance that he always had his card. I trust him, because, y'know, he was an intimate part of the launch process.

If you have actual evidence to the contrary, instead of bullshit maybes thrown out to shoot down, which are the essence of the Appeal to Ignorance Fallacy, then present it.

What a fucking HUGE STRAWMAN you built and knocked down.

Care to show me where I said at any point that anyone but the Commander in Chief of the US Armed Forces can authorise a nuclear strike?

I'll break it down for you nice and easy, since given this post implies that your higher processing functions have switched off for the day;

POTUS has this special little card which contains the codes for launching a nuclear strike.

POTUS is on Air Force One, when it gets blown out of the sky (by an AAM, Lightning, an act of God, aliens, etc), or POTUS is having a shower, slips kills himself, and in his death throws DESTROYS HIS SPECIAL LITTLE CARD.

By some strange coincidence, the Russian Federation, overnight and in under a minute, becomes once again the USSR, and decides it's time to strike at America.

What happens?

Well in this wonderful system of democracy, you might be familiar with it, the mantle of POTUS is awarder to - dramatic drum roll - VPOTUS! So now the VPOTUS is acting POTUS, is also the CiC of the US Armed Forces, and by the fact that nuclear launch proceedures have indeed factored in this exact scenario (albiet with a slightly more serious tone) the acting POTUS must be able to fullfill the role and responsiblities the normal POTUS had, without delay, otherwise the US will be vunerable!

So that either means that VPOTUS already has a special little card or there is another little card on hand that can be activated quickly and easilty. Otherwise the entire system is inherently flawed and stupid.

Hey look, I just committed a Logic Fallacy

In the case of POTUS still being alive, he can still hand the responsibilty to VPOTUS by signing a little note (I think it is known as the 25th?) which basically goes as follows;

I, President Bill I-like-to-get-blow-jobs-in-the-oval-office Clinton, do hereby grant temporary powers of Presidency to my Vice President Al I-am-so-boring-but-I-think-that-I-invented-the-internet Gore, until such time as I get my special little card replaced.

Signed, POTUS.

[Iceberg]

Given how obsessively the government plans for unlikely contingencies, it does seem EXCEEDINGLY unlikely that there would not be a backup card in case POTUS were to die in such a way as to destroy his card, at a time when the immediate use of nuclear weapons were required.

[MKSheppard]

Given how obsessively the government plans for unlikely contingencies, it does seem EXCEEDINGLY unlikely that there would not be a backup card in case POTUS were to die in such a way as to destroy his card, at a time when the immediate use of nuclear weapons were required.

What do you do then when POTUS leaves the fucking officer with the
nuclear football behind at an official function in washington, and
he's without the football for 30 fucking minutes before said officer
hails a cab to the whitehouse, since no body went back for him

[The Kernel]

What do you do then when POTUS leaves the fucking officer with the
nuclear football behind at an official function in washington, and
he's without the football for 30 fucking minutes before said officer
hails a cab to the whitehouse, since no body went back for him

Shep, I'm curious, how do you think they replace the card anyways? I imagine that it can be done at the Pentagon which isn't all that far from the White House. What about the process of replacing the card do you think takes a long time?