Where did all the Star Destroyers go???

[Alyeska]

Actually the USN built a handful of proper cruisers after WW2.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... /cgn-9.htm

The USS Long Beach CGN-9 being the last one built in 57'-61'. However you are correct that the USN has changed roles for most of its ships. After the Russian navy started building a series of cruisers and battlecruisers the USN tried scarring them be redesignating many of its larger destroyers into cruisers. Because of this DDGs and DGNs became CGs and CGNs. One DGN eventualy became a CSGN.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Oh yes, vast sections of the Empire just defected to the Rebellion. This is why the Rebel fleet after Endor was composed almost entirely of ISDs the whole time...

I have no doubt that many of the various Sector Group ISDs and VSDs ended up in the hands of local Sectorial and member governments, just like the Hapan's gains and they were technologically inferior.

Also remember that the NRDF is tightly controlled by a large officer base of Calamarians, and a lot of pork probably went to maintaining and building up the NR's Kuat around Mon Calamari. Additionally, the tempo of keeping the spearhead and central fleets of the New Republic of their own vessels for propoganda reasons explains some of the fatigue that periodically ground NR progress to a halt (Solo Command to mid-Thrawn Trilogy).

Also, the fleets literally are chock-full of the Sector Group's lower class vessels, with many Lancers, Dreadnoughts, Assault Frigates, Carracks, etc.

Gee, how about the fucking fact that Endor was composed of MOST of the Rebellions ships (only 12-24 Mon Cal cruisers). Mon Cal could not produce enough ships to even hope to compete with the Empire and the Rebellion RARELY captured ISDs. Infact they captured so few of them that when they took Couriscant they attacked with a grand total of 7 Mon Cals and 2 ISDs. And these were ISDs captured from Endor, not ships gained from Defections.

Thank you for proving my point Alyeska. Massive defections and NR emphasis on large member fleets is necessitated by the simple fact that how else could the rapidly-expanding New Republic field any defense, even in your vastly-under-scale fleet estimates (and the numbers you cite by HDS refer to low-end figures as of BFC, not the pre-Operation SHADOWHAND NR).

This is further supported by the relative commonplace Star Destroyers as of the New Jedi Order throughout the New Republic and not attached to the central government's numbered Fleets. The NR to my knowledge hasn't been constructing anything but New Class SDs, and most of the galaxy hasn't seen combat with the Empire in order to capture said SDs since Operation SHADOWHAND. I believe this demonstrates that much of the Sector Groups which may've surrendered or defected were cannabilized by local governments and NR members for their own defense, leaving the central fleets (centered about Ackbar's armada) on the offensive. As Zahnites continuously like to state, the bit about the Liberator and Emancipator proves nothing. Captured by Ackbar's armada, and remaining tied to said armada, which the perspective of the EU invariably focuses on, tells us nothing about the composition of the other fleets and local navies.

I believe you have a relatively compact "core" of Calamarian vessels and some prestige vessels like the first two ISDs ever captured, the Emancipator and Liberator. This core forms the early New Republic's offensive fleet. In combat, much of the battles are between local navies and Sector Groups plagued by warlordism, civil war, and revolt. Many of these Sector Groups surrender or defect with their Sector and are cannabilized by the local members and Sectorial defense forces. Also, the largest and hardest to maintain forces like SDs are likely to suffer some of the heaviest and most brutal fighting. Nevertheless, for propoganda reasons the main fleet is centered around the Calamarian forces. Most of the uber-fleets of the Imperial Navy are withdrawn to the Deep Core already, or shot to shit in warlordism and civil war. Ackbar's fleet fights little more than the occasional Executor or Star Cruiser as a result.

Also, the New Republic's first massive push Coreward didn't start until after at least a year or two of consolidation, militarization, and expansionism, as much of the Outer Rim and Mid Rim defects or is abandoned in the confusion and chaos of large-scale warlordism, massive mutinies, civil war, and Deep Core-withdrawls. Meanwhile, the local and defected navies sweep up local military materiel recovered from the Empire and bolster their own might and defenses while the core fleet is continually reinforced by the exponentially building Calamari.

I think my assumptions and speculation have a little more base in reality then that wild ass guess of a figure at billions to trillions of ships. Especialy because this flies in the face of logic. Oh yes, the Empire had trillions of ships that it managed to piss away in less then half a decade.

Well personally I can't see more than a billion ships Monitor and up. Marina's fleet calcs are a good starting point, and I think 10 x or so should be considered average, and her calc itself pretty low-end.

BTW, past discussions on Rebellion and NR size came to the conclussion that at its height the NR had a 30,000 ship fleet. Thats on THIS board FYI. Of course for the Empire to have 52 trillion ships that means the NR must now suddenly have at least 30 million ships, sounds good, right?

Appeal to Authority. Not only are larger figures correct to scale and extrapolated from canon, but also the figures you refer to were, IIRC, calc-ed on the post-SHADOWHAND NR, likely of the BFC, and as such, is irrelevent to this discussion.

Sounds highly conservative vs. the size of the civilization we're talking about. Nevermind that the NR is going to have much more military might comparitively speaking at the member-level, and no analogue to the Sector Groups because they're unnecessary.

[Ender]

1 billion to 52 trillion capitalships? You have got to be shitting me. You have no fucking idea how assinine this sounds. The Empire lost fucking 99.999% of their fleet in something like three years time. The Rebel Alliance and New Republic never had a strong navy but I seriously doubt a navy of less then 100,000 ships could ever hope to fight an enemy that outnumbers them 10,000-1 low end and ten-million to one high end. If the Empire could put 20 ships in every single starsystem the Rebellion would never have one.

Quit being so fucking reactionary. Seriously, you look at the end numbers without thinking.

1) I got the number based of the math. Point to an error in the basic division or the underlying assumptions.

2) You complain about the fleet size that would see direct and actual combat? Ok, lets really examine that. take the total fleet. Subtract the landing craft, shuttles don't fight. Subtract the auxilary fleet, they were the reserves no one but palpatine could lay a hand on. Take away the special warfare ships, we've seen that fighter groups can disable them because they alot their power to the special systems. that leaves with an effective fleet of 142.5 million. Now they outnumber the rebels by ~1,000 to one if we use your 100,000 esitmate. Gee, Cracken's theat sourcebook says it was 5,000. If we go by it actually being 5,000, the rebel fleet is then 28,500 ships strong.. and weren't you saying it was only 30,000? Damn, looks like that meshes there.

3) The rebels taking systems... First up if you subtract the non ships of the line you get 2 ships per system, and then recall certain systems and sectors like Kuat and coruscant were very heavily defended and others ignored. Thats how, it isn't nearly that skewed. Further, there is the quote from the Hand of Thrawn trilogy that says the Rebels only ever fought a small portion of the the Imperial fleet. Looks like that works.

4) Where did it go? We know from the dark Empire sourcebook that as soon as he came too on Byss (~1 year post Endor) the Emperor recalled everything he could and waited. So that's on top of the Reserve fleet. But by that time (and continuing after it) we know that the Grand Moffs, Warlords, Grand Admirals, and Imperial Advisors were at each others throats, throwing massive flees at each other according to the Essential Chronology & SW Insider. Hence by the time Thrawn came around they had a tiny offensive fleet, and post Imperial Puirge in DE they were down to the effective fleet they had pre endor, which put the Republic back at the same odds it had seen 6 years prior.

So, upon further examination: the number meshes with the Imperial sourcebook, the Dondonna quote, Cracken's Threat Dossier Sourcebook, known and estimated ship firepower, Essential Chronology, SW Insider, and post Dark Empire rebel fleet esitmates. Damn, look at that, all the big time information fits.

I don't do anything half assed, and the accusations that this is fan wank is directly implying that. And I don't appreciate it. Believe me, I checked through this shit on all sides before I said a damn word to anyone. And the results fit with the information we have, proving the level I worked on it. So chill out and examine the stuff before you post that its BS.

[Alyeska]

1) I got the number based of the math. Point to an error in the basic division or the underlying assumptions.

I've already asked for the fucking numbers and proof and you've completely ignored me.

[FTeik]

We shouldn´t ignore the possibility, that much of the firepower covered with the Dodonna-quote might be concentrated in some of the larger ships of the empire, torpedo-spheres and superlaser-platforms like the Tarkin.

More than one billion ships are overkill, if you ask me.

[Illuminatus Primus]

We shouldn´t ignore the possibility, that much of the firepower covered with the Dodonna-quote might be concentrated in some of the larger ships of the empire, torpedo-spheres and superlaser-platforms like the Tarkin.

More than one billion ships are overkill, if you ask me.

I think its a tad big myself.

I'm tempted to use this number as the total Imperial high-end, and Marina's provisional calcs as mid-range (she's rather over-conservative on the numbers of sectors, and Imperial Sourcebook implies that some regions have 1000+ sectors, so it stands a galaxy of many many sectors should have more sectors than the mere number of senators in the TPM Rotunda and she assumes UR materiel that isn't there, though that's more minor), and figures based on Saxton's tonnage vs. quantity graph on his website as low-end.

Don't forget though, he is including shit like gunboats, shuttles, supply ships, reserves, and small transports and scouts.

Everything above a starfighter.

[Alyeska]

Don't forget though, he is including shit like gunboats, shuttles, supply ships, reserves, and small transports and scouts.

Everything above a starfighter.

That is a tad decietful. Typicaly when ships are talked about anything below the size of Corvette or Medium Freighter is left out. This way gunboats, missileboats, light freighters, and various shuttles and small transports don't get tallied up. The only ships of importance are the ones that can realisticaly put a pressence. Even medium freighters are questionable.

[Illuminatus Primus]

That is a tad decietful. Typicaly when ships are talked about anything below the size of Corvette or Medium Freighter is left out. This way gunboats, missileboats, light freighters, and various shuttles and small transports don't get tallied up. The only ships of importance are the ones that can realisticaly put a pressence. Even medium freighters are questionable.

Nice definition of decietful. He even put the landing ships in their own individual catagory and gave examples which clearly indicated. His premises were included. This just makes it look like you don't know how to read.

[Alyeska]

That is a tad decietful. Typicaly when ships are talked about anything below the size of Corvette or Medium Freighter is left out. This way gunboats, missileboats, light freighters, and various shuttles and small transports don't get tallied up. The only ships of importance are the ones that can realisticaly put a pressence. Even medium freighters are questionable.

Nice definition of decietful. He even put the landing ships in their own individual catagory and gave examples which clearly indicated. His premises were included. This just makes it look like you don't know how to read.

Hey, I asked for him to give me this information TWICE now and he ignored those requests.

[Publius]

Cool your heels, gentlemen. It would be a shame for this thread to lose its way on acount of animosity over mere words.

PUBLIUS

[Ender]

That is a tad decietful. Typicaly when ships are talked about anything below the size of Corvette or Medium Freighter is left out. This way gunboats, missileboats, light freighters, and various shuttles and small transports don't get tallied up. The only ships of importance are the ones that can realisticaly put a pressence. Even medium freighters are questionable.

Nice definition of decietful. He even put the landing ships in their own individual catagory and gave examples which clearly indicated. His premises were included. This just makes it look like you don't know how to read.

Hey, I asked for him to give me this information TWICE now and he ignored those requests.

Bull shit fucker, You really do need to learn how to read. Check back on page four where I explained how you get anywhere from 1 billion to 52 trillion: I specifically state its based off taking the average output of the DS reactor over 1 day and dividing it by the firepower of an isd.

let me put it here again, since you are totally glossing over things left and right here:

1E33 / 1E24 = 1E9

Not terribly complicated, Already posted, and jives with all the evidence.

[Ender]

We shouldn´t ignore the possibility, that much of the firepower covered with the Dodonna-quote might be concentrated in some of the larger ships of the empire, torpedo-spheres and superlaser-platforms like the Tarkin.

More than one billion ships are overkill, if you ask me.

You mean include things that didn't exist at the time? Ok

[Ender]

Ok, a question relating to all of this: Does anyone know how many Gators (amphibious assault ships: LHDs, LHAs, LSDs) there were in the united states navy as of 8/1/45? They got grouped into the big headingof "landing craft" on the site I used for reference and knowing that number would allow determining how many Acclamator or other type of troop transports the Empire had.

[FTeik]

We shouldn´t ignore the possibility, that much of the firepower covered with the Dodonna-quote might be concentrated in some of the larger ships of the empire, torpedo-spheres and superlaser-platforms like the Tarkin.

More than one billion ships are overkill, if you ask me.

You mean include things that didn't exist at the time? Ok

Torpedo-Spheres were already discribed in the ISB, which predates ANH and according to Mon Mothma in "Soldiers of the Empire" the superlaser of the DeathStar was nothing new, but simply the "most powerful superlaser ever built". Vessels like Admiral Giel´s flagship or General Tagge´s battlecruiser certainly predate ANH too.

[Alyeska]

Bull shit fucker, You really do need to learn how to read.

Gee thanks asshole. I ask for the information twice and the thread is ballooned in size. What do you do? You post the information when quoting SOMEONE ELSE.

[vakundok]

I would only like to see the things clear:
- Is that 1E24 the firepower that an ISD can deliver over one day?
- Did Dodonna say that the firepower of the DS was larger than that of the fleet or half of the fleet? (If I remember well, whole in the movie and half in the novelisation.)
- Isn't that 1E9 lower end figure suggests that the empire would have been able to provide an average of 1.000 ISDs (or ships with comparable firepower) for its million member worlds (completely ignoring the less important worlds)?

[Illuminatus Primus]

Bull shit fucker, You really do need to learn how to read.

Gee thanks asshole. I ask for the information twice and the thread is ballooned in size. What do you do? You post the information when quoting SOMEONE ELSE.

Quit whining. He's not entitled to spoon-feed you. I've read the whole thread before posting, apparently unlike you, and I don't need special notices to see carefully laid out information just as I requested.

You said he didn't provide it, I corrected you, and you were still too lazy and just as wrong. You didn't pay attention and now want to bitch about it. Just admit you're wrong and quit griping.

[Rogue 9]

- Did Dodonna say that the firepower of the DS was larger than that of the fleet or half of the fleet? (If I remember well, whole in the movie and half in the novelisation.)

He said greater than half the starfleet in the movie. I don't remember the line in the novel.

[Ender]

We shouldn´t ignore the possibility, that much of the firepower covered with the Dodonna-quote might be concentrated in some of the larger ships of the empire, torpedo-spheres and superlaser-platforms like the Tarkin.

More than one billion ships are overkill, if you ask me.

You mean include things that didn't exist at the time? Ok

Torpedo-Spheres were already discribed in the ISB,

They are also strategic weapons platforms, not ships, and their known production run and easily estimated firepowe don't really skew it, especially when the 1 billion is already low end because I take "greater then half" to mean all.

which predates ANH and according to Mon Mothma in "Soldiers of the Empire" the superlaser of the DeathStar was nothing new, but simply the "most powerful superlaser ever built".

Yes, and you have what evidence that there were standard superlaser mounting ships at that time?

Vessels like Admiral Giel´s flagship or General Tagge´s battlecruiser certainly predate ANH too.

Good shrist, this damn number is already low end, the total warships is lower then the commonl used Marina calcs, and you are bitching about this? Get a life.

Further, prove both of those were pre ANH.

[Ender]

Bull shit fucker, You really do need to learn how to read.

Gee thanks asshole. I ask for the information twice

No, I posted it after the first time, you asked for it again because you didn't read my post.

and the thread is ballooned in size. What do you do? You post the information when quoting SOMEONE ELSE.

A post you read because you then responded to it complaining about the end numbers.

Your inability to read is not my problem.

[Ender]

I would only like to see the things clear:
- Is that 1E24 the firepower that an ISD can deliver over one day?

No, 1 second. It has a firepower of ~1E24 watts. (little less by my estimation, but I can't back that so just go from the generic bdz in 1 hour estimate from saxton)

- Did Dodonna say that the firepower of the DS was larger than that of the fleet or half of the fleet? (If I remember well, whole in the movie and half in the novelisation.)

Half in the movie. Which again makes my numers low end.

- Isn't that 1E9 lower end figure suggests that the empire would have been able to provide an average of 1.000 ISDs (or ships with comparable firepower) for its million member worlds (completely ignoring the less important worlds)?

Go back to page 4 and read my breakdown. Its mid-to-bottom of the page. Ends up with there being 142 million actual warships, which works out to 2 ships a system counting all colonies and what not, and 142 if you only go by the major leading worlds.

[vakundok]

I would only like to see the things clear:
- Is that 1E24 the firepower that an ISD can deliver over one day?

No, 1 second. It has a firepower of ~1E24 watts. (little less by my estimation, but I can't back that so just go from the generic bdz in 1 hour estimate from saxton)

Well, than you should divide your estimate by 86.400 (the seconds in one day), shouldn't you?

I haven't checked the sum number, so have you used firepower comparation? I mean 1E9 ISD = ~8E9 Dreadnaought, or so.

[SPOOFE]

Isn't that 1E9 lower end figure suggests that the empire would have been able to provide an average of 1.000 ISDs (or ships with comparable firepower) for its million member worlds (completely ignoring the less important worlds)?

It's unknown just how many ISD's were permanently on police duty. Further, there were an additional 10 million colony systems/worlds, if I recall correctly, which would need further policing. Then there are the frontline forces... remember, there were fleets (or individual ships) that were darting all over the galaxy constantly in conquest (like Thrawn's ship before he returned).

The Empire was always in motion... the only way it managed to remain stable was by constantly adding new territory. It hadn't acquired ALL the galaxy by the time the films come around.

[vakundok]

Isn't that 1E9 lower end figure suggests that the empire would have been able to provide an average of 1.000 ISDs (or ships with comparable firepower) for its million member worlds (completely ignoring the less important worlds)?

It's unknown just how many ISD's were permanently on police duty. Further, there were an additional 10 million colony systems/worlds, if I recall correctly, which would need further policing. Then there are the frontline forces... remember, there were fleets (or individual ships) that were darting all over the galaxy constantly in conquest (like Thrawn's ship before he returned).

If we assume that a colony requires approximately one tenth the permanent presence of a member world, it is still 500 (and 50 per colony). If we assume that 90% of the fleet (25 millions of the Death Squad!) is assigned to frontline (the first time the rebellion provided a frontline was the battle of Endor) duty, escorting civilian convoys or special missions, it is still 50 (5).

[Ender]

I would only like to see the things clear:
- Is that 1E24 the firepower that an ISD can deliver over one day?

No, 1 second. It has a firepower of ~1E24 watts. (little less by my estimation, but I can't back that so just go from the generic bdz in 1 hour estimate from saxton)

Well, than you should divide your estimate by 86.400 (the seconds in one day), shouldn't you?

Why the fuck would I change it from power when it is suppossed to be a figure for power?

I haven't checked the sum number, so have you used firepower comparation? I mean 1E9 ISD = ~8E9 Dreadnaought, or so.

Go read the breakdown, then post, now you are just making yourself look foolish.