Could the DS destroy all the borg

[Ender]

It does convienantly explain all your borg techno wanking.

You have yet to see true technowanking then. Go to SB, and do a search for both "Triumveron" and "Adrax" (they are one and the same) and read about the wonderful abilities of the First Ones.

[Robert Walper]

We should also keep in mind that a group of photorp detonations can fuck up a transwarp conduit so that all of the ships coming through it are destroyed on the way out (we saw this in Unimatrix One, IIRC).

STVOY "Dark Frontier" actually. Not trying to nitpick, just providing you with accurate source material.

Additionally, it should be noted that photon torpedoes exhibit strange characteristics, such as "subspace" distortions, etc. In STTNG "Yesterday's Enteprise", simple photon torpedo detonations opened up a temporal vortex and created that alternate timeline with the Federation and Klingon Empire at war. Other unusual characteristics are typical as well if I'm not mistaken. The example I gave was just off the top of my head.

We must not assume that Imperial weapons would react identically to Federation weaponry in all instances against Trek technology. They may be more powerful, but that doesn't in any way imply they would have the same effects upon witnessed Trek technology(ie: Transwarp conduits). For all we know, they'd pass right through the conduit. Even proximity detonations of TL's might not possess the characterisitcs of photon torpedo detonations, such as subspace interference.

It is a highly fragile system of transportation

Something of a subjective interpretation I daresay. A Transwarp conduit can be collapsed by photon torpedoes, but torpedoes have repeatedly been seen to have unusual characteristics. Perhaps others here could provide further examples?

Obviously, Imperial weaponry lacks any type of characteristic that would make create a temporal "anomaly".

Transwarp conduits have temporal properties, as learned in STVOY "Shattered".

which would be easily nullified from a strategic standpoint, particularly once the Empire has conquered the Federation and incorporated their knowledge of the Borg.

Thus one would have to change the debate to "Galactic Empire with Federation knowledge versus Borg Collective". Frankly, that would technically put the Empire in a bad light, suggesting they need Federation knowledge in order to combat the Borg. In a Borg/Imperial comparison, I wouldn't be giving one side technology from another power not included in the debate between the two.

[Ender]

Here's the Rub with that whole subspace temporal whatzit that Rvlencia ties to bring up and now you adopted:

Did the torpedos cause the rift, or did the torpedos just release enough energy to cause subspace to form it in a naturally weak spot?

[Robert Walper]

Here's the Rub with that whole subspace temporal whatzit that Rvlencia ties to bring up and now you adopted:

That's the first I've heard that anyone else brough up the same point.

Did the torpedos cause the rift, or did the torpedos just release enough energy to cause subspace to form it in a naturally weak spot?

Torpedoes clearly can cause rifts as seen in STTNG "Yesterday's Enteprise". Given temporal properties of Transwarp conduits, and that that specific example also being temporal, that might be more than just coicidence.

[Ender]

Did the torpedos cause the rift, or did the torpedos just release enough energy to cause subspace to form it in a naturally weak spot?

Torpedoes clearly can cause rifts as seen in STTNG "Yesterday's Enteprise".

Where's your proof that the torpedos were the cause and not just the trigger? Think of it like setting dynamite off at a specific point along a fault line and causeing a minor earthquake. Did the dynamite create the earthquake, or did it just trigger it?

[Robert Walper]

Did the torpedos cause the rift, or did the torpedos just release enough energy to cause subspace to form it in a naturally weak spot?

Torpedoes clearly can cause rifts as seen in STTNG "Yesterday's Enteprise".

Where's your proof that the torpedos were the cause and not just the trigger?

You have evidence that they were merely a trigger? As I've suggested, photon torpedoes have properties including temporal results. Transwarp conduits also have temporal properties. At the moment, I'm theorizing this may be the cause of closing the conduits. That and/or subspace properties also inherent to both technologies.

Think of it like setting dynamite off at a specific point along a fault line and causeing a minor earthquake. Did the dynamite create the earthquake, or did it just trigger it?

This starts with the assumption conduits are weak to begin with, rather than technology inherent in photon torpedoes being responsible. Temporal properties, subspace distortions, etc, one of those characteristics could easily be responsible for the closure of the conduit witnessed rather then just the explosion alone. *shrugs* Generally, treknology does seem to depend more upon fancy tricks and results with technology rather than brute force and power.

[GUTB]

Here we may fall back onto simple logic: How likely does it seem that simply "a lot of energy" causes temporal disruptions? If it was likely, then temporal disruptions would be a regular by-product of battles in the SW universe -- an effect that does not appear to occur in any measure.

On the other hand, temporal effects have been witnessed before with the use of torpedos. Therefore, it is more likely that such effects are the exception (of photon torpedoes) and not a rule (high energy discharge in general). Therefore, it is completely unreasonable to expect that anything from SW has a ready-made counter for the Borg transit network.

[Darth Wong]

We should also keep in mind that a group of photorp detonations can fuck up a transwarp conduit so that all of the ships coming through it are destroyed on the way out (we saw this in Unimatrix One, IIRC).

STVOY "Dark Frontier" actually. Not trying to nitpick, just providing you with accurate source material.

Additionally, it should be noted that photon torpedoes exhibit strange characteristics, such as "subspace" distortions, etc. In STTNG "Yesterday's Enteprise", simple photon torpedo detonations opened up a temporal vortex and created that alternate timeline with the Federation and Klingon Empire at war. Other unusual characteristics are typical as well if I'm not mistaken. The example I gave was just off the top of my head.

Everything in Trek causes subspace distortions, including natural realspace objects. Bizarre side-effects are more correlated to anomalous regions of space rather than photorp detonations, otherwise these effects would be consistent and frequent. ST has severely fucked-up spacetime. But we know that the mechanism of photorps is simple matter/antimatter detonation, which does not produce any freakish effects.

We must not assume that Imperial weapons would react identically to Federation weaponry in all instances against Trek technology.

Since both weapons release energy in a confined space, what reason do you have for assuming that they should be treated as completely dissimilar?

They may be more powerful, but that doesn't in any way imply they would have the same effects upon witnessed Trek technology(ie: Transwarp conduits).

Why not?

For all we know, they'd pass right through the conduit.

Detonate a warhead in the right place, and that won't be an issue.

Even proximity detonations of TL's might not possess the characterisitcs of photon torpedo detonations, such as subspace interference.

See "Symbiosis". Ordinary solar radiation can create subspace interference (even to the point of crippling their sensors and communications).

It is a highly fragile system of transportation

Something of a subjective interpretation I daresay. A Transwarp conduit can be collapsed by photon torpedoes, but torpedoes have repeatedly been seen to have unusual characteristics. Perhaps others here could provide further examples?

On the contrary, torpedoes are used on a vast number of occasions without freakish results. The anomalous incidents are obviously related to anomalous regions of space rather than an intrinsic characteristic of the torpedo.

Obviously, Imperial weaponry lacks any type of characteristic that would make create a temporal "anomaly".

And since hundreds of photorp detonations fail to create these anomalies, you have no reason to concluding that it's the torp's intrinsic characteristics rather than some other circumstance.

Transwarp conduits have temporal properties, as learned in STVOY "Shattered".

Define "temporal properties". You've been watching too much Star Trek.

which would be easily nullified from a strategic standpoint, particularly once the Empire has conquered the Federation and incorporated their knowledge of the Borg.

Thus one would have to change the debate to "Galactic Empire with Federation knowledge versus Borg Collective".

Bullshit. This is like saying that WW2 America vs Japan is somehow altered if the Americans hit Tarawa on the way there. It's a natural waypoint.

Frankly, that would technically put the Empire in a bad light, suggesting they need Federation knowledge in order to combat the Borg.

Never did I suggest that, and if you continue to put words in my mouth I will lower the civility level of this conversation accordingly. But it's much easier to simply take someone else's pre-existing intel than gather your own.

In a Borg/Imperial comparison, I wouldn't be giving one side technology from another power not included in the debate between the two.

This is not a tech comparison; it is a scenario.

[Darth Wong]

Here we may fall back onto simple logic: How likely does it seem that simply "a lot of energy" causes temporal disruptions? If it was likely, then temporal disruptions would be a regular by-product of battles in the SW universe -- an effect that does not appear to occur in any measure.

On the other hand, temporal effects have been witnessed before with the use of torpedos. Therefore, it is more likely that such effects are the exception (of photon torpedoes) and not a rule (high energy discharge in general). Therefore, it is completely unreasonable to expect that anything from SW has a ready-made counter for the Borg transit network.

GUTB, for the fourth time, answer a fucking rebuttal to one of your stupid moron posts or else. You drop in, make a post, ignore every rebuttal, and then do it again an hour later. This is trolling by any stretch of the imagination.

Actually, since GUTB is your cute little acronym for "Guy Under The Bridge" (read: troll) and you have a history of trolling other boards, I'd say that everyone knows you're just here to troll, it's no secret, and you're gone. Goodbye, fuckhead.

[Robert Walper]

We should also keep in mind that a group of photorp detonations can fuck up a transwarp conduit so that all of the ships coming through it are destroyed on the way out (we saw this in Unimatrix One, IIRC).

STVOY "Dark Frontier" actually. Not trying to nitpick, just providing you with accurate source material.

Additionally, it should be noted that photon torpedoes exhibit strange characteristics, such as "subspace" distortions, etc. In STTNG "Yesterday's Enteprise", simple photon torpedo detonations opened up a temporal vortex and created that alternate timeline with the Federation and Klingon Empire at war. Other unusual characteristics are typical as well if I'm not mistaken. The example I gave was just off the top of my head.

Everything in Trek causes subspace distortions, including natural realspace objects. Bizarre side-effects are more correlated to anomalous regions of space rather than photorp detonations, otherwise these effects would be consistent and frequent. ST has severely fucked-up spacetime. But we know that the mechanism of photorps is simple matter/antimatter detonation, which does not produce any freakish effects.

Aren't you contradicting yourself? You state "everything in Trek subspace distortions", and then state torpedoes don't produce any "freakish effects"? To me, it seems more like a question of the intensity level of effects as opposed to them merely happening once in a while do to space itself being unstable or unusual.

We must not assume that Imperial weapons would react identically to Federation weaponry in all instances against Trek technology.

Since both weapons release energy in a confined space, what reason do you have for assuming that they should be treated as completely dissimilar?

I'm not insisting they are totally dissimilar. I'm merely implying that photon torpedoes can produce extremely unsual effects that I doubt SW weaponry would imitate under virtually any circumstances. It's a question of the degree by which those effects are measureable. I'm not assuming it's a on or off effect.

They may be more powerful, but that doesn't in any way imply they would have the same effects upon witnessed Trek technology(ie: Transwarp conduits).

Why not?

Both weapons types release energy. SW weapons, so far as I know, release that energy in a very normal way. Trek weaponry on the other hand, while also releasing energy, impart other effects where they have been known to detonate. Just because a few examples are unusually noticeable, doesn't mean the effects are non-existent at all other times.

For all we know, they'd pass right through the conduit.

Detonate a warhead in the right place, and that won't be an issue.

Conceded.

Even proximity detonations of TL's might not possess the characterisitcs of photon torpedo detonations, such as subspace interference.

See "Symbiosis". Ordinary solar radiation can create subspace interference (even to the point of crippling their sensors and communications).

You're implying TL's then would produce subspace interference?

It is a highly fragile system of transportation

Something of a subjective interpretation I daresay. A Transwarp conduit can be collapsed by photon torpedoes, but torpedoes have repeatedly been seen to have unusual characteristics. Perhaps others here could provide further examples?

On the contrary, torpedoes are used on a vast number of occasions without freakish results.

Noticeably freakish results. I wouldn't suggest photon torpedo effects is just a on and off proposition, but a matter of degrees.

The anomalous incidents are obviously related to anomalous regions of space rather than an intrinsic characteristic of the torpedo.

One would have to summit evidence that every incident which these effects have been witnessed took place in a anomalous regions of space. The torpedoes themselves are obviously present every time, but as to space itself being unusual every time is somewhat iffy in my opinion.

Obviously, Imperial weaponry lacks any type of characteristic that would make create a temporal "anomaly".

And since hundreds of photorp detonations fail to create these anomalies, you have no reason to concluding that it's the torp's intrinsic characteristics rather than some other circumstance.

I'm assuming such "effects" are always present, with rare instances where they are more highly concetrated and/or noticeable. Perhaps the volume of space being unusual does contribute to the freakish examples being noted, but would it really be logical to assume just any type of explosion would produce such effects rather than torpedoes having unusual properties themsevles?

Transwarp conduits have temporal properties, as learned in STVOY "Shattered".

Define "temporal properties". You've been watching too much Star Trek.

Sorry, just using Treknobabble. (in my own defense, I haven't watched Trek in awhile, I'm working from memory alone)

Seven of Nine stated in STVOY "Shattered" that Borg vessels, when travelling through conduits, experience "temporal stress". I take this to mean the conduits themselves warp space/time in some fashion. Her explanation included her describing how Borg vessels required techonology to maintain vessels in "temporal" sync, otherwise they'd suffer the disaster Voyager did in said episode.

Thus one would have to change the debate to "Galactic Empire with Federation knowledge versus Borg Collective".

Bullshit. This is like saying that WW2 America vs Japan is somehow altered if the Americans hit Tarawa on the way there. It's a natural waypoint.

I was specifying "Galactic Empire versus Borg Collective". I wasn't intenting to imply other parties would be involved. Conflict on the specifics of the scenario I take it.

Frankly, that would technically put the Empire in a bad light, suggesting they need Federation knowledge in order to combat the Borg.

Never did I suggest that, and if you continue to put words in my mouth I will lower the civility level of this conversation accordingly.

I apologize. That was honestly not my intent. I was merely responding to the introduction of the Federation into the debate which I had thought was clearly a comparison between the Borg and Empire themselves without involving other powers.

But it's much easier to simply take someone else's pre-existing intel than gather your own.

I wouldn't dispute that.

In a Borg/Imperial comparison, I wouldn't be giving one side technology from another power not included in the debate between the two.

This is not a tech comparison; it is a scenario.

Conceded.

[Darth Wong]

Aren't you contradicting yourself?

No.

You state "everything in Trek subspace distortions", and then state torpedoes don't produce any "freakish effects"?

Correct, because not all subspace distortions cause freakish effects.

To me, it seems more like a question of the intensity level of effects as opposed to them merely happening once in a while do to space itself being unstable or unusual.

Then explain why even a huge release of photon torpedoes from a large number of ships (eg- nearly 2000 combined ships in "A Sacrifice of Angels" all in one place) did not produce the effects that were apparently produced by a half-dozen ships unleashing their ordnance in "Yesterday's Enterprise".

I'm not insisting they are totally dissimilar. I'm merely implying that photon torpedoes can produce extremely unsual effects that I doubt SW weaponry would imitate under virtually any circumstances. It's a question of the degree by which those effects are measureable. I'm not assuming it's a on or off effect.

Except that you have failed to show a correlation between torpedo use or yield and those effects. You have only shown coincidence. Time-travel has been caused in Trek by proximity to a black hole as well (see TOS), which is a perfectly natural phenomenon.

Both weapons types release energy. SW weapons, so far as I know, release that energy in a very normal way. Trek weaponry on the other hand, while also releasing energy, impart other effects where they have been known to detonate. Just because a few examples are unusually noticeable, doesn't mean the effects are non-existent at all other times.

They are not observed, therefore there is no reason to believe they exist. Do not appeal to ignorance.

See "Symbiosis". Ordinary solar radiation can create subspace interference (even to the point of crippling their sensors and communications).

You're implying TL's then would produce subspace interference?

If intense electromagnetic radiation can (as shown by "Symbiosis", then yes, TLs can and in fact must create subspace interference.

Noticeably freakish results. I wouldn't suggest photon torpedo effects is just a on and off proposition, but a matter of degrees.

Then explain why there is no correlation between the number of torpedoes used and the effect? Or do you seriously feel more torpedoes were unleashed by a half-dozen Romulan warbirds in "Yesterday's Enterprise" than by two thousand ships trying to kill each other in "Sacrifice of Angels"?

One would have to summit evidence that every incident which these effects have been witnessed took place in a anomalous regions of space.

No, one need only point out that there is no correlation between photon torpedo use and these effects, hence it is totally illogical to assume that it is some intrinsic characteristic of photon torpedoes.

I'm assuming such "effects" are always present, with rare instances where they are more highly concetrated and/or noticeable.

That's nice. Please explain the part where your assumptions qualify as evidence.

Perhaps the volume of space being unusual does contribute to the freakish examples being noted, but would it really be logical to assume just any type of explosion would produce such effects rather than torpedoes having unusual properties themsevles?

Yes. Completely logical, since there is no correlation whatsoever between photon torpedo use and these phenomena. If you fired a gun 500 times and the 501st time created a freakish anomaly, would you say "hmm, guns must create freakish anomalies?"

Sorry, just using Treknobabble. (in my own defense, I haven't watched Trek in awhile, I'm working from memory alone)

Seven of Nine stated in STVOY "Shattered" that Borg vessels, when travelling through conduits, experience "temporal stress". I take this to mean the conduits themselves warp space/time in some fashion. Her explanation included her describing how Borg vessels required techonology to maintain vessels in "temporal" sync, otherwise they'd suffer the disaster Voyager did in said episode.

Space and time are not separable. There is no such thing as purely temporal stress.

I was specifying "Galactic Empire versus Borg Collective". I wasn't intenting to imply other parties would be involved. Conflict on the specifics of the scenario I take it.

The phrase "collateral damage" did not occur to you? The Federation would be a natural objective on the way to defeating the Borg, so they could quickly assimilate its intel on the Borg. It doesn't change the identities of the two combatants, nor does it really introduce a new combatant out of the blue as one of the two specified combatants would naturally instigate this addition for obvious reasons.

I apologize. That was honestly not my intent. I was merely responding to the introduction of the Federation into the debate which I had thought was clearly a comparison between the Borg and Empire themselves without involving other powers.

Without necessarily involving them, but in this case, the Empire has a logical reason to grab them for their intel. For them to not do so would involve some kind of unnatural prohibition against it, particularly since it would be so easy to do.

[Robert Walper]

Aren't you contradicting yourself?

No.

You state "everything in Trek subspace distortions", and then state torpedoes don't produce any "freakish effects"?

Correct, because not all subspace distortions cause freakish effects.

I concede that point.

To me, it seems more like a question of the intensity level of effects as opposed to them merely happening once in a while do to space itself being unstable or unusual.

Then explain why even a huge release of photon torpedoes from a large number of ships (eg- nearly 2000 combined ships in "A Sacrifice of Angels" all in one place) did not produce the effects that were apparently produced by a half-dozen ships unleashing their ordnance in "Yesterday's Enterprise".

I'm afraid I can't. Your reasoning would seem to be the more logical explanation, therefore I will recognize it.

I'm not insisting they are totally dissimilar. I'm merely implying that photon torpedoes can produce extremely unsual effects that I doubt SW weaponry would imitate under virtually any circumstances. It's a question of the degree by which those effects are measureable. I'm not assuming it's a on or off effect.

Except that you have failed to show a correlation between torpedo use or yield and those effects. You have only shown coincidence. Time-travel has been caused in Trek by proximity to a black hole as well (see TOS), which is a perfectly natural phenomenon.

Both weapons types release energy. SW weapons, so far as I know, release that energy in a very normal way. Trek weaponry on the other hand, while also releasing energy, impart other effects where they have been known to detonate. Just because a few examples are unusually noticeable, doesn't mean the effects are non-existent at all other times.

They are not observed, therefore there is no reason to believe they exist. Do not appeal to ignorance.

I concede that point. Must you always be right!

See "Symbiosis". Ordinary solar radiation can create subspace interference (even to the point of crippling their sensors and communications).

You're implying TL's then would produce subspace interference?

If intense electromagnetic radiation can (as shown by "Symbiosis", then yes, TLs can and in fact must create subspace interference.

I concede that point.

Noticeably freakish results. I wouldn't suggest photon torpedo effects is just a on and off proposition, but a matter of degrees.

Then explain why there is no correlation between the number of torpedoes used and the effect? Or do you seriously feel more torpedoes were unleashed by a half-dozen Romulan warbirds in "Yesterday's Enterprise" than by two thousand ships trying to kill each other in "Sacrifice of Angels"?

No, again, I'm afraid I again must concede.

One would have to summit evidence that every incident which these effects have been witnessed took place in a anomalous regions of space.

No, one need only point out that there is no correlation between photon torpedo use and these effects, hence it is totally illogical to assume that it is some intrinsic characteristic of photon torpedoes.

Makes sense. I was apparently grasping at straws.

I'm assuming such "effects" are always present, with rare instances where they are more highly concetrated and/or noticeable.

That's nice. Please explain the part where your assumptions qualify as evidence.

It doesn't. Point conceded.

Perhaps the volume of space being unusual does contribute to the freakish examples being noted, but would it really be logical to assume just any type of explosion would produce such effects rather than torpedoes having unusual properties themsevles?

Yes. Completely logical, since there is no correlation whatsoever between photon torpedo use and these phenomena. If you fired a gun 500 times and the 501st time created a freakish anomaly, would you say "hmm, guns must create freakish anomalies?"

...Point conceded? You ability to make me feel stupid is too easy. I need far more practice at reaching logical deduction obviously.

Sorry, just using Treknobabble. (in my own defense, I haven't watched Trek in awhile, I'm working from memory alone)

Seven of Nine stated in STVOY "Shattered" that Borg vessels, when travelling through conduits, experience "temporal stress". I take this to mean the conduits themselves warp space/time in some fashion. Her explanation included her describing how Borg vessels required techonology to maintain vessels in "temporal" sync, otherwise they'd suffer the disaster Voyager did in said episode.

Space and time are not separable. There is no such thing as purely temporal stress.

I don't believe I implied that space and time were seperable? Nor did I imply temporal stress was the only stress?

I was specifying "Galactic Empire versus Borg Collective". I wasn't intenting to imply other parties would be involved. Conflict on the specifics of the scenario I take it.

The phrase "collateral damage" did not occur to you?

When one outlines a scenario, collateral damage is of course expected. However, I don't believe I was outlining a specific scenario, I was merely determining FTL factors and the technology behind which such factors are achieved? I merely expanded the discussion to the strength of conduit openings.

The Federation would be a natural objective on the way to defeating the Borg, so they could quickly assimilate its intel on the Borg.

I won't dispute that.

It doesn't change the identities of the two combatants, nor does it really introduce a new combatant out of the blue as one of the two specified combatants would naturally instigate this addition for obvious reasons.

Agreed.

I apologize. That was honestly not my intent. I was merely responding to the introduction of the Federation into the debate which I had thought was clearly a comparison between the Borg and Empire themselves without involving other powers.

Without necessarily involving them, but in this case, the Empire has a logical reason to grab them for their intel. For them to not do so would involve some kind of unnatural prohibition against it, particularly since it would be so easy to do.

Agreed.

[Ender]

Torpedoes clearly can cause rifts as seen in STTNG "Yesterday's Enteprise".

Where's your proof that the torpedos were the cause and not just the trigger?

You have evidence that they were merely a trigger? As I've suggested, photon torpedoes have properties including temporal results.

Your sole evidence that they have temporal properties is the event in question. Can you point out a single other time a barrage of photon torpedos has caused something similar? How about name the part in a matter-antimatter reaction where time travel is induced?

Which makes more sense here: Photon torpeods are your basic AM warhead missile, and a load of them going off triggered one of the numerous spacial anomolies to kick the ship forward in time

or that photon torpedos have a warhead powered by AM that also induces Time travel, but only in great numbers and only once ever in known history despuite the fact that if this was an inbuilt property we would have seen it more often in any of the wars, or hell whent he klingon ship let loose with them in ENTERPRISE

Transwarp conduits also have temporal properties. At the moment, I'm theorizing this may be the cause of closing the conduits. That and/or subspace properties also inherent to both technologies.

Or you are vastly overthinking and overcomplicating things.

Think of it like setting dynamite off at a specific point along a fault line and causeing a minor earthquake. Did the dynamite create the earthquake, or did it just trigger it?

This starts with the assumption conduits are weak to begin with, rather than technology inherent in photon torpedoes being responsible. Temporal properties, subspace distortions, etc, one of those characteristics could easily be responsible for the closure of the conduit witnessed rather then just the explosion alone. *shrugs* Generally, treknology does seem to depend more upon fancy tricks and results with technology rather than brute force and power.

No, this has absolutly nothing to do with your transwarp conduits. I am talking solely about Yesterday's Enterprise.

WTR the transwarp conduits, I can't imagine a large explosion durign the operation of any bit of advanced technology would be a good thing, so you are covered most any way you choose there.

[Ender]

Here we may fall back onto simple logic: How likely does it seem that simply "a lot of energy" causes temporal disruptions? If it was likely, then temporal disruptions would be a regular by-product of battles in the SW universe -- an effect that does not appear to occur in any measure.

So now we are applying Trek physics to SW, instead of real world physics to both. You are truely one dumb son of a bitch.

On the other hand, temporal effects have been witnessed before with the use of torpedos. Therefore, it is more likely that such effects are the exception (of photon torpedoes) and not a rule (high energy discharge in general). Therefore, it is completely unreasonable to expect that anything from SW has a ready-made counter for the Borg transit network.

I see, and would you please point out any of the times when this ahppened durign a normal fight? We saw a cubic asston fired during the Dominion war, where were the temporal anomolies? I won't hold my breath waiting for a pertinant response.

[Lord Poe]

Also remember that, for a time, warp speed past factor 7 caused subspace damage to regions of space. Voyager's adjustable nacelles are supposed to counteract this, and I believe the Enterprise E is supposed to be able to counteract this as well.

And Wolf 359 isn't a Bermuda Triangle either!

[Crazedwraith]

Also remember that, for a time, warp speed past factor 7 caused subspace damage to regions of space. Voyager's adjustable nacelles are supposed to counteract this, and I believe the Enterprise E is supposed to be able to counteract this as well.

And Wolf 359 isn't a Bermuda Triangle either!

twas past warp 5 i beleive. At least warp 5 was the "speed limit" for a time and then everyone forgot about it.

[Patrick Ogaard]

On the matter of the bizarre time travel and space travel experienced by the Enterpise-C in "Yesterday's Enterprise," that's the one photon torpedo effect that almost made sense after a fashion.

One of the more obscure proposed uses for great gobs of antimatter, if ever we should be able to produce it, is to put it into great big bombs and use the bombs to travel through time and space.

No, really.

The idea, and I only have it from secondary sources so that I can't provide the name of the intrepid theorist or crackpot who came up with it, is as follows:

Four or more arbitrarily enormous matter/antimatter bombs are deployed in a very precise formation around a spacecraft. The bombs are all equipped with fantastically to impossibly precise positioning systems and timers. The bombs detonate, and the resulting shockwaves of stressed spacetime all meet in the center in a massive implosion, producing an effect a bit like the DS9 wormhole, and propel the spacecraft, unharmed, to some far-distant location in space and time.

Naturally, in real life, there's the fact that the concept allows absolutely zero margin for error. If one of the bombs is a dud, or if the timing or placement of the detonating bombs is off even fractionally, everyone dies. Not to mention the possibility that the theories underlying the drive system might well have been discredited as thoroughly as Leydenfrost barriers or the Dean drive.

When I saw the episode my first thought was: Freak accident leading to absolutely perfect placement and timing of explosions, add in subspace-based technobabble to make up for the wimpy explosions and you've almost got an actual SF idea.

[Darth Wong]

The idea, and I only have it from secondary sources so that I can't provide the name of the intrepid theorist or crackpot who came up with it, is as follows:

Four or more arbitrarily enormous matter/antimatter bombs are deployed in a very precise formation around a spacecraft. The bombs are all equipped with fantastically to impossibly precise positioning systems and timers. The bombs detonate, and the resulting shockwaves of stressed spacetime all meet in the center in a massive implosion, producing an effect a bit like the DS9 wormhole, and propel the spacecraft, unharmed, to some far-distant location in space and time.

Naturally, in real life, there's the fact that the concept allows absolutely zero margin for error. If one of the bombs is a dud, or if the timing or placement of the detonating bombs is off even fractionally, everyone dies. Not to mention the possibility that the theories underlying the drive system might well have been discredited as thoroughly as Leydenfrost barriers or the Dean drive.

There's also the minor problem that it's really not based on any science at all and is obviously just another sci-fi plot device.

[Patrick Ogaard]

The idea, and I only have it from secondary sources so that I can't provide the name of the intrepid theorist or crackpot who came up with it, is as follows:

Four or more arbitrarily enormous matter/antimatter bombs are deployed in a very precise formation around a spacecraft. The bombs are all equipped with fantastically to impossibly precise positioning systems and timers. The bombs detonate, and the resulting shockwaves of stressed spacetime all meet in the center in a massive implosion, producing an effect a bit like the DS9 wormhole, and propel the spacecraft, unharmed, to some far-distant location in space and time.

Naturally, in real life, there's the fact that the concept allows absolutely zero margin for error. If one of the bombs is a dud, or if the timing or placement of the detonating bombs is off even fractionally, everyone dies. Not to mention the possibility that the theories underlying the drive system might well have been discredited as thoroughly as Leydenfrost barriers or the Dean drive.

There's also the minor problem that it's really not based on any science at all and is obviously just another sci-fi plot device.

Well, yeah, there's an enormous likelihood of that, too.

[Robert Walper]

In my opinion, there's no real evidence to suggest the DS could seriously destroy thousands of worlds without the need for refueling and massive mateinance supported by a large enough established infrastructure.

[Patrick Degan]

In my opinion, there's no real evidence to suggest the DS could seriously destroy thousands of worlds without the need for refueling and massive mateinance supported by a large enough established infrastructure.

On the contrary, the very nature of the Death Star's energy requirements and its mission precludes any possibility that the battlestation is not designed for independence from resupply. Such a structure could not exist as a sustainable weapon system if it were heavily dependent on periodic refueling. This would render it vulnerable to attacks upon its resupply convoys which would neutralise it during a military campaign.

As for maintenance, the Death Star already has a personnel roster numbering in the millions and more than sufficent space, energy, and machinery on board to manufacture any replacement parts necessary to continue the battlestation's function. Again, such a large structure would have to have this capacity to exist as a viable strategic weapon system invulnerable to attacks upon its logistics.

[Robert Walper]

In my opinion, there's no real evidence to suggest the DS could seriously destroy thousands of worlds without the need for refueling and massive maintenance supported by a large enough established infrastructure.

On the contrary, the very nature of the Death Star's energy requirements and its mission precludes any possibility that the battlestation is not designed for independence from resupply.

You've lost me...you're saying because the DS is so massive and has such enormous energy requirements, it does not require maintenance and refueling? I'm missing the logic...just because we saw the DS destroy one planet, and preparing to possibly destroy another, doesn't mean one should make the leap in logic it can destroy thousands of worlds without refueling and resupply. For all we know, it could require such resupply after displaying such firepower on only ten or less targets.

Isn't this a bit like claiming because we see Mike Tyson KO punch a opponent in the ring, he can do it indefinitely?

Such a structure could not exist as a sustainable weapon system if it were heavily dependent on periodic refueling.

Sorry, but what kind of jibberish is this?(I'm not trying to be rude, I'm honestly confused). How does the possiblity of the DS requiring refueling and resupply make it a unsustainable weapon platform?

Isn't this a bit like suggesting a US aircraft carrier wouldn't function effectively as a mobile base of operation with impressive firepower simply because it requires a existing infrastructure and support system? Aircraft carriers depend upon refueling and resupply, but they are very effective mobile bases of operation, and with impressive firepower even relative to some modern nations.

This would render it vulnerable to attacks upon its resupply convoys which would neutralise it during a military campaign.

It's highly mobile itself, and impressively so. There's no need for a supply convoy if it can hyperspace to the nearest refueling depot. And I see no reason to assume that because a DS can destroy one planet, it must be able to destroy thousands without resupply or refueling.

As for maintenance, the Death Star already has a personnel roster numbering in the millions and more than sufficent space, energy, and machinery on board to manufacture any replacement parts necessary to continue the battlestation's function.

I take it then you can back up these claims? These aren't simply assumptions on your part?

Again, such a large structure would have to have this capacity to exist as a viable strategic weapon system invulnerable to attacks upon its logistics.

And you state the DS is invulnerable to attacks on it's logistics because...why?

The DS was built by a Galactic Empire determined to maintain control through terror over it's rebelling populations. Since the Empire was already in control of it's logistics, as don't see it as necessary for one to assume the DS is completely self sufficient. A large fleet of Imperial capital ships could easily protect the DS during refueling and resupply, and we don't have to assume the DS would wait until "empty" is read on it's gauges before performing said functions. Even a DS depleted in power and resources, say down to 1/50 of maximum capacity, would still be a massive and deadly target even for a fleet of enemy spacecraft.

Is there some canon or official source I'm unaware of that states or implies a DeathStar battlestation is completely self sufficient and does not require resupply and refuleing?

So far as I know, such a claim is completely unfounded, and illogical to boot.

[Ghost Rider]

For logistics...given that the Alliance was prepared to strike at the DS instead of a convoy, usually it's pretty safe to presume that logistics are either very minor to it's overall maintence or it doesn't require them.

Unless you want to assume it's safer to assualt the DS instead of a convoy no matter how well armed.

That and we never heard in canon or EU the DS ever needing refueling thus you would have to provide proof it did something that was never once mentioned.

[Patrick Degan]

In my opinion, there's no real evidence to suggest the DS could seriously destroy thousands of worlds without the need for refueling and massive maintenance supported by a large enough established infrastructure.

On the contrary, the very nature of the Death Star's energy requirements and its mission precludes any possibility that the battlestation is not designed for independence from resupply.

You've lost me...you're saying because the DS is so massive and has such enormous energy requirements, it does not require maintenance and refueling? I'm missing the logic...just because we saw the DS destroy one planet, and preparing to possibly destroy another, doesn't mean one should make the leap in logic it can destroy thousands of worlds without refueling and resupply. For all we know, it could require such resupply after displaying such firepower on only ten or less targets.

And if it did require regular refueling, just how much fuel mass would have to be shipped to it? How large a convoy do you imagine that would require? The energy expenditure necessary simply to push the thing through space is already enormous apart from how much is required to fuel the superlaser. Furthermore, it evidently is able to power its main weapon without drawing a crippling amount from the reactor as well as powering shields capable of protecting the battlestation from impact with planetary debris accelerated to 1600x escape velocity. All of this points to an energy production capacity many times that necessary to power the superlaser. Furthermore, the Death Stars were very evidently designed to operate alone, without any sort of support fleet. These facts point to a closed-system design with the storage of sufficent fuel to last through the expected servive life of the main reactor.

Isn't this a bit like claiming because we see Mike Tyson KO punch a opponent in the ring, he can do it indefinitely?

Non-sequitor.

Such a structure could not exist as a sustainable weapon system if it were heavily dependent on periodic refueling.

Sorry, but what kind of jibberish is this?(I'm not trying to be rude, I'm honestly confused). How does the possiblity of the DS requiring refueling and resupply make it a unsustainable weapon platform?

Because it would be vulnerable to its supplies being cut off and thus its mission compromised. And before you state the inevitable objection, the very nature of the Death Star as a strategic weapon platform powerful enough to terrorise a galactic civilisation into submission requires its independence from resupply.

Isn't this a bit like suggesting a US aircraft carrier wouldn't function effectively as a mobile base of operation with impressive firepower simply because it requires a existing infrastructure and support system? Aircraft carriers depend upon refueling and resupply, but they are very effective mobile bases of operation, and with impressive firepower even relative to some modern nations.

The better model rather is an SSBN rather than an aircraft carrier (and even that comparison is poor).

This would render it vulnerable to attacks upon its resupply convoys which would neutralise it during a military campaign.

It's highly mobile itself, and impressively so. There's no need for a supply convoy if it can hyperspace to the nearest refueling depot. And I see no reason to assume that because a DS can destroy one planet, it must be able to destroy thousands without resupply or refueling.

Appeal to Ignorance fallacy, for a start. The Death Star's capabilities are self-evident, considering how much in the way of onboard resources it already represents simply to be able to propel itself —an operation requiring a fuel with greater energy density than that of a black hole.

As for maintenance, the Death Star already has a personnel roster numbering in the millions and more than sufficent space, energy, and machinery on board to manufacture any replacement parts necessary to continue the battlestation's function.

I take it then you can back up these claims? These aren't simply assumptions on your part?

SWICS —section on the Death Star.

Again, such a large structure would have to have this capacity to exist as a viable strategic weapon system invulnerable to attacks upon its logistics.

And you state the DS is invulnerable to attacks on it's logistics because...why?

Asked and answered. Next...?

The DS was built by a Galactic Empire determined to maintain control through terror over it's rebelling populations. Since the Empire was already in control of it's logistics, as don't see it as necessary for one to assume the DS is completely self sufficient. A large fleet of Imperial capital ships could easily protect the DS during refueling and resupply, and we don't have to assume the DS would wait until "empty" is read on it's gauges before performing said functions. Even a DS depleted in power and resources, say down to 1/50 of maximum capacity, would still be a massive and deadly target even for a fleet of enemy spacecraft.

And yet the Death Star is never observed operating with any sort of support fleet either as a defensive escort or for logistics. What is your evidence that regular refueling and resupply is required?

Is there some canon or official source I'm unaware of that states or implies a DeathStar battlestation is completely self sufficient and does not require resupply and refuleing?

SWICS —section on the Death Star. Star Wars Ep. IV: A New Hope. Star Wars Ep. VI: Return Of The Jedi.

So far as I know, such a claim is completely unfounded, and illogical to boot.

And yet you offer zero evidence to back your surmise.

[Robert Walper]

For logistics...given that the Alliance was prepared to strike at the DS instead of a convoy, usually it's pretty safe to presume that logistics are either very minor to it's overall maintence or it doesn't require them.

That's complete bullshit. You have an enemy destroyer heading towards your primary base of operations. Are you seriously going to attack it's "supply" lines of convoy ships? This also makes the ridiculas assumption that any type of resupply convoy(which the DS shouldn't need) is a endless line of ships that are a 24/7 operation. No one is saying the DS needs convoys or needs to refuel and resupply every ten hours. My car is "self sufficient" so long as it has gas in the tank and all parts are in working order. But what you're suggesting is like a quick observation of said vehicle moving at 100kph and assuming it does not require maintenace, resupply or refueling. The DS has the resources to destroy a single planet, and apparently without resupply or refueling, try to destroy another. Do you think it's really logical to assume then it never needs to resupply or refuel?

Unless you want to assume it's safer to assualt the DS instead of a convoy no matter how well armed.

And the DS needs a convey because...? It's mobile itself, it shouldn't need any. It just needs some refueling depots to head towards. And how the hell is attacking the DS's theoritcal convoy going to stop it from destroying your base of operations?

That and we never heard in canon or EU the DS ever needing refueling thus you would have to provide proof it did something that was never once mentioned.

Correction. The burden of proof is on you. You cannot state the DS does not require refueling and resupply, and demand I present proof that it requires it. You must provide proof the DS in completely self sufficient to justify any such claim. Look at real world examples. Find any military vehicle of any type that does not require refueling and resupply at some point.