The A-wing and the Odyssey

[Ender]

A question, has anyone preformed some calcs in relation to the amount of force the A-wing used to smash though the bridge of the Executor? Particularily in respect to the ramming of the Odyssey? I played fast and loose with some numbers for each and came out with 40,000,000 lbf for the Awing. However that was assuming 4 tons mass and 5000G accel of one second. And even then I'm not sure if I did trhe calcs right.

However, the interesting thing is that when I used the numbers the other person provided about the density of ST armor and plugged that into the bug and assumed 400 m/s accel (going from 600 m/s to 1 km/s in the last second before hitting), that came out to be less then the impact of the A-wing.

So has anyone here ever preformed these calcs? Does anyone have better information to use? I see this as being very handy as it would show that even the weakest parts of Wars ships are stronger then the main hull of a GCS.

Also, in respect to Mikes calcs on the Odyssey incident, did he account for the mass-lightening field on the bug? Was the angle of the impact in respect to the coverage of the nav deflectors considered? Afterall, depending on how it came in, it may have not even hit the nav shield as it only covers the fron to the ship.

[Alyeska]

FYI, the mass calcs that Wong uses for the bug are based on bad numbers. The DS9 TM lists the Attack Ship as much smaller then it really is. Additionally sudden impact such as that is likely to do very bad things to things such as reactor containment on either ship. Last of all if you note the location where the Attack Ship struck, it was right on the torpedo launcher. The KE from the ramming itself did not kill the Odyssey, it was the secondary explossive effects.

An apt comparison would be WTC. It wasn't the planes KE that knocked down the towers, it was the fuel that did it in.

[Ender]

All valid points, but does not really address the part I want to get at. In order to do that damage, it had to punch though the main hull. I want to figure out how much force the A-wing had when it did the same to compare the too.

We should of course recalculate the bug numbers with more accurate information, however according to the page itself it was already updated with better numbers when he recieved better scaling information.

[Typhonis 1]

Ender the A-wing didnt punch through the hull it punched trough one of the bridge windows which is much weaker.Speaking of windows if in trek they are soooooo acurate why doesnt someone try shooting the windows out on on of the Fed starships??

[Master of Ossus]

First of all, everyone on this thread is wrong on at least one point, so please don't attack me until after I have gotten to everyone, who I will get to in chronological order.

Ender, you go first since you started the thread. The A-Wing clearly did not have 5000m/sec of relative velocity when it hit the Executor. We should assume that its deceleration took at least one second because the continuation of the fireball inside the bridge of the Executor represents a structural failure, providing evidence that the Executor's window did not manage to stop the entire mass of the A-Wing. Now, we can measure the velocity of the A-Wing and determine that it was nowhere near 5000m/sec (relative), because that would mean the A-Wing traversed the entire length of the Executor from bow to bridge in about three seconds. This is incorrect, as we can measure the time from the X-Wing's explosion along the "buildings" of the Executor, Arvel's scream, and the Imperial officers giving orders and then pointing to the A-Wing. This shows that it took at least seven seconds for the A-Wing to traverse the distance, though it is possible that the fighter was accelerating due to EU claims that the ramming of the Executor was intentional.

Now, Alyeska, do you have any evidence that a magazine explosion destroyed the Odyssey despite the conspicuous lack of visible secondary explosions in that area? Further, don't GCS's wait until the last possible moment to load torpedoes with AM? Further and most importantly, even if you are correct, it would still mean the Odyssey's hull failed to stop the Jem'Hadar ship, representing a hull failure. A warp core explosion was the actual culprit that destroyed the ship, but it still means that the ship's hull failed to stop the collision, which is an assertion that is bolstered by the ramming incidents against Klingon ships later in the series (at very low relative velocities).

Typhonis is the last, and the least incorrect thus far. He is only incorrect in terms of a red-herring that he introduces. Star Trek weapons appear to be wide enough, and do enough damage to their opponents, that targeting windows is unreasonable because the windows actually have no mass associated with them (they are forcefields, and presumably could be reinforced to be stronger even than the hull itself), but more importantly are not located around critical systems, with the exception of the bridge. ST weapons do not appear to be accurate enough to reliably target the bridges of other starships for unknown reasons (as shuttlecraft are smaller than the GCS's bridge), but it may simply be that targeting critical systems is more expedient. Moreover, it could be that the ridiculously low observed hull strengths of ST ships make the targeting of windows unecessary because targeting windows produces no appreciable benefit in terms of penetrating power (ref. ST:VI).

[CmdrWilkens]

One of the other key components many people are missing here is that force ALONE isn't the solution to the problem of penetration differential. in the end it will come down to pressure. The greater the impact area the more reduced the pressure will be and pressure defines how much force is applied to a given cross section which in turn helps reveal how resistant a structure must be in order to stop an impactor. For the incident in quesiton even if we assume the same impact force (mass time deceleration by the structure) the A-Wing would have a huge advantage in terms of pressure due to the force being over so much smaller of an area.

[Typhonis 1]

So blasting the conference room on a Galaxy class starship wont affect the bridge its connected to? I mean if you ever saw the show that conference room is rigfht beside the bridge and I doubt if those are pressure doors connecting them .but the General windows .yeah not worth the effort my bad.

[Master of Ossus]

So blasting the conference room on a Galaxy class starship wont affect the bridge its connected to? I mean if you ever saw the show that conference room is rigfht beside the bridge and I doubt if those are pressure doors connecting them .but the General windows .yeah not worth the effort my bad.

Why blast the windows, disabling the ship, when a hit to the warp core utterly destroys it 100% of the time? In fact, you need not even hit the warp core. Do enough damage and the warp core will explode, anyway.

[Isolder74]

The A-Wing will have a very good chance of destroying the Oddessey. It just needs to hit it in the right place.

[Typhonis 1]

Given its design flaws...Timothy Jones could bring the Oddysee down with an etch a sketch

[Ender]

Ender the A-wing didnt punch through the hull it punched trough one of the bridge windows which is much weaker

That's the point, I am trying to see if there is prof that tthe weakest part of the hull on a wars ship is stronger then the main hull of a GCS

Ender, you go first since you started the thread. The A-Wing clearly did not have 5000m/sec of relative velocity when it hit the Executor. We should assume that its deceleration took at least one second because the continuation of the fireball inside the bridge of the Executor represents a structural failure, providing evidence that the Executor's window did not manage to stop the entire mass of the A-Wing. Now, we can measure the velocity of the A-Wing and determine that it was nowhere near 5000m/sec (relative), because that would mean the A-Wing traversed the entire length of the Executor from bow to bridge in about three seconds. This is incorrect, as we can measure the time from the X-Wing's explosion along the "buildings" of the Executor, Arvel's scream, and the Imperial officers giving orders and then pointing to the A-Wing. This shows that it took at least seven seconds for the A-Wing to traverse the distance, though it is possible that the fighter was accelerating due to EU claims that the ramming of the Executor was intentional.

Like I said, I played fast and loose with numbers. The purpose of this thread is to correct any of my mistakes and get better numbers for an accurate comparrison.

One of the other key components many people are missing here is that force ALONE isn't the solution to the problem of penetration differential. in the end it will come down to pressure. The greater the impact area the more reduced the pressure will be and pressure defines how much force is applied to a given cross section which in turn helps reveal how resistant a structure must be in order to stop an impactor. For the incident in quesiton even if we assume the same impact force (mass time deceleration by the structure) the A-Wing would have a huge advantage in terms of pressure due to the force being over so much smaller of an area.

Ok, how does one go about accounting for that?

[arctic_series]

then there's always the fact that in trek, propulsion is based around some spatial distortion instead of good ol' put lots of boom behind something and make it fly sort propulsion technique that star wars ships use for sublight purposes.

put it this way, it's really the warp bubble ( yes even for impulse, albeit a much weaker one ) that's dragging the ship along, once the field collapses the ship could be doing alot less than what was before with the warp bubble intact. think of it like when you're inside a warp bubble it's like just walking around on the ground, you don't really feel much at all when you run or jump.. and you can reach some decent speeds running your legs off. that's inside the warp field. now try to run jump whatever in a pool, difficult isn't it ? well without a warp field that's how ships in trek would act in real space.

now looking at the oddessy incident, think trying to hit something at the bottom of a pool, you lose a big portion the power behind the motion to strike the bottom of the pool as soon as you enter the water.

so really, trek physics really fucks everything up.

[Kamakazie Sith]

then there's always the fact that in trek, propulsion is based around some spatial distortion instead of good ol' put lots of boom behind something and make it fly sort propulsion technique that star wars ships use for sublight purposes.

What episode supports that ST impulse propulsion is based around some spatial distortion? I know that warp is but impulse?

[Ender]

I think he is refering to the mass-lightening field

[seanrobertson]

A question, has anyone preformed some calcs in relation to the amount of force the A-wing used to smash though the bridge of the Executor? Particularily in respect to the ramming of the Odyssey? I played fast and loose with some numbers for each and came out with 40,000,000 lbf for the Awing. However that was assuming 4 tons mass and 5000G accel of one second. And even then I'm not sure if I did trhe calcs right.

'Sup Ender? You sent me a PM that I've had a devil of a time
getting to. I'll be sure to try again soon if not in a few minutes.

I haven't worked any figures yet, but if the A-Wing rammed the
Odyssey while the latter has her shields up, it'd probably
just bounce off, the way Roga Danar's ship did. It wasn't
accelerating at a rate comparable to the A-Wing, but IIRC
it was a good bit bigger and more massive.(Odyssey
had lowered her own shields after they discovered no
amount of frequency alterations defended them from the
Jem'Hadar. They re-routed that power to weapons instead
and recommended that the Runabouts do the same.)

Begs some good nos., though.

[Kamakazie Sith]

I think he is refering to the mass-lightening field

I know he is, and from what I remember that field is only in use during warp and not impulse.

[CmdrWilkens]

One of the other key components many people are missing here is that force ALONE isn't the solution to the problem of penetration differential. in the end it will come down to pressure. The greater the impact area the more reduced the pressure will be and pressure defines how much force is applied to a given cross section which in turn helps reveal how resistant a structure must be in order to stop an impactor. For the incident in quesiton even if we assume the same impact force (mass time deceleration by the structure) the A-Wing would have a huge advantage in terms of pressure due to the force being over so much smaller of an area.

Ok, how does one go about accounting for that?

Pressure = Force/Area. For more on how to apply this a humorous way to learn is to go read Mike's dismantling of IXJac and the "weapons do not penetrate based on force and pressure" agrument.

[Ender]

A question, has anyone preformed some calcs in relation to the amount of force the A-wing used to smash though the bridge of the Executor? Particularily in respect to the ramming of the Odyssey? I played fast and loose with some numbers for each and came out with 40,000,000 lbf for the Awing. However that was assuming 4 tons mass and 5000G accel of one second. And even then I'm not sure if I did trhe calcs right.

'Sup Ender? You sent me a PM that I've had a devil of a time
getting to. I'll be sure to try again soon if not in a few minutes.

Hey great, Thanks

I haven't worked any figures yet, but if the A-Wing rammed the
Odyssey while the latter has her shields up, it'd probably
just bounce off, the way Roga Danar's ship did. It wasn't
accelerating at a rate comparable to the A-Wing, but IIRC
it was a good bit bigger and more massive.(Odyssey
had lowered her own shields after they discovered no
amount of frequency alterations defended them from the
Jem'Hadar. They re-routed that power to weapons instead
and recommended that the Runabouts do the same.)

Begs some good nos., though.

While that would be an interesting thing to see, as it would provide a nice counter to the ram the bridge tactic, it is not quite what I am getting at.

I want to see if any one has done calcs or has the numbers to let me do calcs, that will let me figure out how hard the A-win had to slam into the bridge to penetrate through.

I also want to get the latest and most accurate numbers for the Odyssey incident.

I bring this up because when playing around weith a few sketchy numbers, it turned out that the windows on the executor required more force to break through then the main hull on the Odyssey. If those numbers were somewhat accurate, it shows that the weakest parts of a SD are stronger then the main hull of a GCS. I want to see if my numbers indicate something that is correct and seek to double check them with better, more accurate figures.

[Ender]

One of the other key components many people are missing here is that force ALONE isn't the solution to the problem of penetration differential. in the end it will come down to pressure. The greater the impact area the more reduced the pressure will be and pressure defines how much force is applied to a given cross section which in turn helps reveal how resistant a structure must be in order to stop an impactor. For the incident in quesiton even if we assume the same impact force (mass time deceleration by the structure) the A-Wing would have a huge advantage in terms of pressure due to the force being over so much smaller of an area.

Ok, how does one go about accounting for that?

Pressure = Force/Area. For more on how to apply this a humorous way to learn is to go read Mike's dismantling of IXJac and the "weapons do not penetrate based on force and pressure" agrument.

Oh. Yeah. Duh.

600!

[Alyeska]

The Jemhadar incident with the Odyssey is not a pure KE impact. On the moment of impact the Attack Ship starts to explode in three points. That is on the very instant of Impact. The fact that the Attackship explodes instantly where as the Odyssey does not would indicate that some volitile or explossive device was used. Further more the impact and explossion occured directly beneath the engineering section and sauce section of the Odyssey. Both are delicate portions. The explossion of another ship so close would be bound to cause problems for the impacted ship. Furthermore a piece of the Attack Ship was blown off and it struck the Odyssey's Warp Engine. The Warp Engines of the early models of the Galaxy class as well as the engineering sections are well known for their instability. The Odyssey is one of the early model ships. Last bit of information goes to the deflector dish and the comment in First Contact. Such an explossion from the Deflector dish would likely cause great damage if not out right destroy the ship. And of course let us not forget that the torpedo launcher is relatively close to the impact as well.

So what killed the Odyssey wasn't pure KE, but one of the listed events, or a combination of them. And after reviewing the point of explossion, it starts at the location of the Deflector dish. So it would seem it wasn't a KE impact that killed the Odyssey, but rather an impact on its deflector dish.

[CmdrWilkens]

The Jemhadar incident with the Odyssey is not a pure KE impact. On the moment of impact the Attack Ship starts to explode in three points. That is on the very instant of Impact.

Forgive my skepticism but do you have a screencap of that?

[Master of Ossus]

So... the engineering section of the Odyssey is a particularly vulnerable point. The saucer section of a Constitution is a particularly vulnerable point (ref. ST:VI). The area where Quark was when the Jem'Hadar ship fired its dud torpedo was a vulnerable point. ALL of ST ships appear to be vulnerable to KE impacts. Have you any evidence that the engineering section was less well protected than other parts, even though it should be BETTER protected because of the proximity of critical sections to it?

[Alyeska]

So... the engineering section of the Odyssey is a particularly vulnerable point. The saucer section of a Constitution is a particularly vulnerable point (ref. ST:VI). The area where Quark was when the Jem'Hadar ship fired its dud torpedo was a vulnerable point. ALL of ST ships appear to be vulnerable to KE impacts. Have you any evidence that the engineering section was less well protected than other parts, even though it should be BETTER protected because of the proximity of critical sections to it?

The Engineering section on the Odyssey was damaged by the explossion from another ship. The KE from the ship is meaingless, it was the explossion from the Attack Ship that damaged the Odyssey.

[Darth Wong]

The Engineering section on the Odyssey was damaged by the explossion from another ship. The KE from the ship is meaingless, it was the explossion from the Attack Ship that damaged the Odyssey.

So what? In an impact between ships made of similar materials, you can toss a coin; one of them has to go first. In this case, it was the JH fighter by a split-second. In other cases, it was Klingon cruisers that went first. You are using a happenstance which changes nothing, in order to distract from the observed fact that these ships cannot handle those kinds of impacts.

[Alyeska]

The Jemhadar incident with the Odyssey is not a pure KE impact. On the moment of impact the Attack Ship starts to explode in three points. That is on the very instant of Impact.

Forgive my skepticism but do you have a screencap of that?

Yeah.

Your going to have to cut and paste these in a seperate window and remove the http:// bit in order to view them.

http://community.webshots.com/storage/1 ... eyf_ph.jpg

This shot is the frame before impact.

http://community.webshots.com/storage/1 ... flk_ph.jpg

This shot is the moment of impact.

http://community.webshots.com/storage/1 ... Bqn_ph.jpg

This shot is the frame before the explossion starts

http://community.webshots.com/storage/1 ... qPU_ph.jpg

This is the moment the explossion started. Notice how it is centered on the Deflector Dish.

http://community.webshots.com/storage/1 ... SOS_ph.jpg

This is the next frame of the explossion. Again notice how it is cenetered on the Deflector dish.