The Japanese During World War 2

Post by **Gandalf** » 2003-12-09 03:41am

Stormbringer wrote:Because it would be racism to call the Japanese to account for it. After all, only white males can commit atrocties or some horse shit. There's not question that the liberal amounts of PC applied in the last few generations have lead to that being largely dropped, it was taught and frankly shouldn't be forgotten.

As for Japan, they need to acknowledge what they did, make an apology and do what they can to make restitution to the victims of their barabarism in World War Two.

Thankyou, sums up what I'm thinking. And I imagine many others here are thinking.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2003-12-09 03:44am

In my experaince, it went in reverse.

Patrick Degan · Post by **Patrick Degan** » 2003-12-09 05:20am

PainRack wrote:Not really. WW2 is more the war started in 1937, the Americans started the war, we retialated in Pearl Harbor, then a huge jump until 1945 where Hiroshima and Nagasaki was bombed.

You surely realise that is utter bullshit, I trust...

The Kernel · Post by **The Kernel** » 2003-12-09 05:31am

PainRack wrote: Not really. WW2 is more the war started in 1937, the Americans started the war, we retialated in Pearl Harbor, then a huge jump until 1945 where Hiroshima and Nagasaki was bombed.

You're kidding right? An American embargo does not equal starting a war. The Japanese pre-emptive strike on Pearl Harbor took care of that.

I often try to look at the situation from both angles and while it is true that the embargo provoked the Japanese into action, from a moral as well as realistic perspective, they started the war. End of story.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2003-12-09 05:33am

IIRC, the Japanese Empire declared war on the US shortly after they left the League of Nations, years before Pearl Harbour when we declared war on Japan.

Maybe the textbooks in Singapore say differently...

Gunshy · Post by **Gunshy** » 2003-12-09 05:41am

It could be argued that WWII started in 1937, but it would still be by the Japanese when they invaded China. The US oil embargo was in retaliation of Japanese aggression.

Darth Gojira · Post by **Darth Gojira** » 2003-12-09 08:27am

The reason I think this topic gets only a few page in a history book is that it isn't complete genocide (Soviets, Nazis) or still impacting the world today (Atomic bomb, civilians as targets)

Frank Hipper · Post by **Frank Hipper** » 2003-12-09 11:31am

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:IIRC, the Japanese Empire declared war on the US shortly after they left the League of Nations, years before Pearl Harbour when we declared war on Japan.

Maybe the textbooks in Singapore say differently...

You recall incorrectly.
Had Japan declared war then, the war would have started then. Period.

There were decades of tension and rivalry between the U.S. and Japan before the militarists dominated the Japanese government during the 20's and 30's. The assumed enemy in all wargames from virtually the turn of the 20th century was Japan for U.S. forces in the Pacific. This helped lead to the inevitability of war in the end, but it wasn't until 1941 that it occured.
Even the sinking of the USS Panay didn't spark war.

Nathan F · Post by **Nathan F** » 2003-12-09 11:46am

I'm just wanting to know where PainRack heard that the the Americans started the war on Japan.

Worlds Spanner · Post by **Worlds Spanner** » 2003-12-09 12:12pm

PainRack wrote: Not really. WW2 is more the war started in 1937, the Americans started the war, we retialated in Pearl Harbor, then a huge jump until 1945 where Hiroshima and Nagasaki was bombed.

The fuck you talkin' 'bout!?

Still waiting for an answer...

Frank Hipper · Post by **Frank Hipper** » 2003-12-09 12:21pm

Worlds Spanner wrote:
PainRack wrote: Not really. WW2 is more the war started in 1937, the Americans started the war, we retialated in Pearl Harbor, then a huge jump until 1945 where Hiroshima and Nagasaki was bombed.

The fuck you talkin' 'bout!?

Still waiting for an answer...

I believe he's talking about how WWII is taught in Japan today, and not making claims himself.

Montcalm · Post by **Montcalm** » 2003-12-09 12:52pm

Frank Hipper wrote:
Worlds Spanner wrote:
PainRack wrote: Not really. WW2 is more the war started in 1937, the Americans started the war, we retialated in Pearl Harbor, then a huge jump until 1945 where Hiroshima and Nagasaki was bombed.

The fuck you talkin' 'bout!?

Still waiting for an answer...
I believe he's talking about how WWII is taught in Japan today, and not making claims himself.

If thats the case,then i guess the Japanese education system is running on disinformation

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2003-12-09 01:16pm

it probably depends on how you look at it. . . .i'm not saying it's right, but one angle could be that since America declared war after the attack, while the japanese didn't declare war, we started it. as opposed to their bombing of pearl harbor being the start of america jumping into the war. though admittedly that's a very very skewed view.

Frank Hipper · Post by **Frank Hipper** » 2003-12-09 01:21pm

Darth_Zod wrote:it probably depends on how you look at it. . . .i'm not saying it's right, but one angle could be that since America declared war after the attack, while the japanese didn't declare war, we started it. as opposed to their bombing of pearl harbor being the start of america jumping into the war. though admittedly that's a very very skewed view.

It also discounts that the Japanese declaration of war was to be timed with the Pearl Harbor attack, and came late only because of difficulties with decrypting the message by the Japanese embassy staff in Washington.

Nathan F · Post by **Nathan F** » 2003-12-09 02:03pm

The Japanese were *supposed* to declare war 30 minutes before an attack, but of course, that never happened.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-12-09 02:08pm

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:IIRC, the Japanese Empire declared war on the US shortly after they left the League of Nations, years before Pearl Harbour when we declared war on Japan.

Ummm, Spanky, put down the crack pipe.

One of the things that made Pearl Harbor so infuriating was that they had not declared war on the US. While they intended to, with minimal notice but Yamamoto insisted we at least be warned, declare war in actual fact the formal notice was not delivered until an hour after Pearl Harbor because the Japanese typists were crap.

phongn · Post by **phongn** » 2003-12-09 02:35pm

Stormbringer wrote:One of the things that made Pearl Harbor so infuriating was that they had not declared war on the US. While they intended to, with minimal notice but Yamamoto insisted we at least be warned, declare war in actual fact the formal notice was not delivered until an hour after Pearl Harbor because the Japanese typists were crap.

Breaking off diplomatic relations is hardly a formal declaration of war.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-12-09 02:48pm

phongn wrote:
Stormbringer wrote:One of the things that made Pearl Harbor so infuriating was that they had not declared war on the US. While they intended to, with minimal notice but Yamamoto insisted we at least be warned, declare war in actual fact the formal notice was not delivered until an hour after Pearl Harbor because the Japanese typists were crap.
Breaking off diplomatic relations is hardly a formal declaration of war.

Wasn't it more than that? I've heard it mentioned as a formal announcement they intended to go to war over the matter.

And if that wasn't the case that contradicts the notion they declared war back in the thirties even further.

Post by **LadyTevar** » 2003-12-09 03:54pm

Stormbringer wrote:
phongn wrote:
Stormbringer wrote:One of the things that made Pearl Harbor so infuriating was that they had not declared war on the US. While they intended to, with minimal notice but Yamamoto insisted we at least be warned, declare war in actual fact the formal notice was not delivered until an hour after Pearl Harbor because the Japanese typists were crap.
Breaking off diplomatic relations is hardly a formal declaration of war.
Wasn't it more than that? I've heard it mentioned as a formal announcement they intended to go to war over the matter.

And if that wasn't the case that contradicts the notion they declared war back in the thirties even further.

Technically... they did declare war in the late '30s.
On China and the other Asian Nations.

The reason I heard for why the formal Declaration of War didn't reach the US before Pearl Harbor is because the typists in the Japanese Embassy were all locally hired young women, who took dictation and then typed up the paperwork. The Japanese Ambassador didn't trust them to keep such an announcement secret, so he released them and attempted to type it up himself. His lack of familiarity with English writing is what delayed the announcement. (from History Channel)

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-12-09 04:27pm

Stormbringer wrote:
Wasn't it more than that?

Nope

I've heard it mentioned as a formal announcement they intended to go to war over the matter.

Its a myth that there was any mention of war or a declaration of war in the Japanese's message. It essentially restated Japans position as it had been in the round of negotiation, then announced that the relations where being broken off.

The attack was intended to be a total surprise.

Nathan F · Post by **Nathan F** » 2003-12-09 04:27pm

I'm still waiting to hear how PainRack heard that...

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2003-12-09 04:40pm

Stormbringer wrote:
Spanky The Dolphin wrote:IIRC, the Japanese Empire declared war on the US shortly after they left the League of Nations, years before Pearl Harbour when we declared war on Japan.
Ummm, Spanky, put down the crack pipe.

Hey, I just messed up some information. It's honestly been about eight years since I learned all that stuff. Sometimes it gets a little mixed up together.

Trogdor · Post by **Trogdor** » 2003-12-09 04:48pm

Gandalf wrote:
I just graduated high school, and we were told much of this stuff.

I am senior in High School, I've taken all the advanced history courses and paid attention, especially to anything involving WWII, and I've heard very little of this. My current history book rambles on about how our embargo crippled the Japanese war effort against China and in the Pacific, but says little, if anything about Japanese cruelty to their POWs, does mention US imprisoning Japanese Americans, though. To read my history book you'd think that the Japanese had absolutly no choice but to attack us. Damned textbook companies in America have gone from making us look unrealistically virtous to unrealistically bad in a pretty short period of time.
(Note: by the unrealitically virtous stuff, I refer to old textbooks' overly positive views of stuff like Manifest Destiny, not WWII).

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-12-09 04:50pm

PainRack wrote: There is considerable contention amongst Japanese historians over whether the squalor of the camps was due to neglect, rather than outright cruelty. No one outside of Japan really believes this but still.....

Humans are not beaten hundreds of times of steel pipes because of neglect, people are not starved and worked to death though mere neglect. Humans are not experimented on or exposed to biological weapons before being executed through neglect.

Not really. WW2 is more the war started in 1937, the Americans started the war, we retialated in Pearl Harbor, then a huge jump until 1945 where Hiroshima and Nagasaki was bombed.

More bullshit. You can aruge WW2 started in 1937, or 1931 for that matter but it is because of the actions of Japan. Because 1937 Japan invaded China with massive armies and in the process Japanese bombers killed Americans in the International Settlement in Shanghai, while more Japanese bombers sank the clearly marked USS Panay.

While Japan still denies any commitment of atrocities committed, symbolic payments of reparations have occured.

Japan is utterly full of shit.

Hamel · Post by **Hamel** » 2003-12-09 05:44pm

My history books spoke of the Rape of Nanking (didn't include the word 'rape') and some vague stuff about POW torture, but didn't go into the gruesome details

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