Wars/Trek Fleet Dispositions

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2003-12-09 01:16pm

I was wondering this the other day while trying to plan out a future massive battle scene. Mike makes a point in his page about the shity wall of ships like disposition of Trek ships in combat. We see this most prominently in Sacrifice of Angels when the two fleet just sit there in front of each other and start pounding away.

But then my thoughts turn to Endor, the only true Wars depiction of massed fleet engagement in the movies that we see....and its two walls of ships pounding away at each other.

Thoughts?

How is Wars superior in fleet engagements in the deployment of their ships?

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2003-12-09 01:20pm

Well, at least the Wars ships maneuvered.

Kamakazie Sith · Post by **Kamakazie Sith** » 2003-12-09 01:43pm

Rogue 9 wrote:Well, at least the Wars ships maneuvered.

Trek ships maneuvered later on in SoA.....it just took them a while to get started.

darthdavid · Post by **darthdavid** » 2003-12-09 01:48pm

Real fighter craft, Eu examples of manuvers, Etc...

Shogoki · Post by **Shogoki** » 2003-12-09 01:51pm

The emperor gave the order that the fleet was to just sit there keeping the rebels from running away while the DS took them out one at a time. The fleet wasn't even firing at first. The rebels had on one side the DS on the other the imperial fleet. Then Ackbar ordered the fleet to get up close to the imperial fleet, in order to keep the DS from firing at them and possibly hit one of the imperial ships.

"We wont last long against those star destroyers"
"We will last longer than against that Death Star"

They were trapped, there was really not much they could do.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2003-12-09 01:52pm

Using the EU, I like Thrawn's half sphere formation at Kuat (or was it Fondor?) used with Interdictors to encircle the New Republic fleet. Of course, that creates a hell of a crossfire, but they didn't particularly care.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2003-12-09 02:20pm

Rogue 9 wrote:Using the EU, I like Thrawn's half sphere formation at Kuat (or was it Fondor?) used with Interdictors to encircle the New Republic fleet. Of course, that creates a hell of a crossfire, but they didn't particularly care.

Bilbringi actually. Akbar came in with the fleet in an arrowhead formation, but thrawn was ready and waiting with a spherical enclosure formation. It gave the Imperials open season on the Republic, and the Republic had to break formation to get out and engage. Kinda makes it odd that Pelleon couldn't take it, either Thrawn was taken out exceptionally early in the fight, Republic ships had been upgraded to be much tougher then Imperial ships, or Akbar 's forces really outgunned the Imperials. Seriously, the fleet comes out of hyperspace, shields down, you can cut loose right then and cripple if not destroy a number outright, then you've got them stuck in the middle for several minutes where you can just pound them. Its not like Pelleon is some crappy captain, he was pretty good, so the fact that he called a retreat there is just odd.

On topic, the big difference is that even though both series eventually just end up in a raw brawl of walls of ships hitting each other, Wars atleast tries some fancy tricks early on.

Grand Moff Yenchin · Post by **Grand Moff Yenchin** » 2003-12-09 02:23pm

Thrawn also used interdictors to force ships go to specific areas when he was attacking Corusucant.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2003-12-09 02:24pm

Oh yeah, Bilbringi. *Swears again to get to the library and read those books again.* And yeah, I thought it was odd too. I always liked Pellaeon for some reason.

CmdrWilkens · Post by **CmdrWilkens** » 2003-12-09 04:35pm

Also the NJO series includes multiple interesting delpoyments (from the split fleets to the Yammosk-style formation that the Yuuzhan Vong adopted). The prusuit of Zsinj include some rather neat chases and entrapments with small fleet elements slowly battling against each other while BFC also had at least a few innovative manuevers (and rather realistic I think).

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-12-09 06:11pm

Ender wrote:[Seriously, the fleet comes out of hyperspace, shields down, you can cut loose right then and cripple if not destroy a number outright, then you've got them stuck in the middle for several minutes where you can just pound them. Its not like Pelleon is some crappy captain, he was pretty good, so the fact that he called a retreat there is just odd.

Shields are down? I don't seen any reason they can't be raised while in hyperspace.

And Pelleaon's record is pretty dismal.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2003-12-09 06:12pm

Even at Endor, the positioning of the Imperial fleet made far more sense than the UFP deployment in SoA. The Rebels were given no ability to escape, since if they had attempted to escape in any direction they would have been open to fire from both the DSII and the Imperial Fleet. If they had scattered, then the Imperial fleet could have broken formation and hunted them down. On the other side, the Alliance couldn't afford to spread its fleet out because that would not only have watered down its firepower and made its ships more vulnerable to Imperial fighters and small craft, but it also would have allowed more of the DSII's weapons to engage. When the two fleets moved towards each other, they showed little regard for formation (except that they tried to avoid being caught between multiple enemy capital ships at the same time). This is better than the SoA deployment, in which the wall formation was actually significant for both sides, and both were reluctant to break formation and engage in a battle of maneuvering until they were already well within firing range of each other.

In short, the Imperial strategy was designed to take advantage of the third dimension without allowing any ships to be engaged by a concentration of Alliance ships, yet still offered them the flexibility to engage Alliance vessels if they chose to break and run. When the fight actually began between the two fleets, the two sides showed little interest in formation and quickly spread apart to engage targets of opportunity. In "Sacrifice of Angels," both sides actually took pains to maintain the wall formation even after they had begun the engagement, and did not coordinate their weapons fire appropriately. Still more shocking, the wall formation allowed for easy "flanking" maneuvers, which were apparently highly dangerous to both sides, but offered little opportunity to respond.

Kazuaki Shimazaki · Post by **Kazuaki Shimazaki** » 2003-12-09 07:13pm

Ender wrote:Bilbringi actually. Akbar came in with the fleet in an arrowhead formation, but thrawn was ready and waiting with a spherical enclosure formation. It gave the Imperials open season on the Republic, and the Republic had to break formation to get out and engage. Kinda makes it odd that Pelleon couldn't take it, either Thrawn was taken out exceptionally early in the fight, Republic ships had been upgraded to be much tougher then Imperial ships, or Akbar 's forces really outgunned the Imperials. Seriously, the fleet comes out of hyperspace, shields down, you can cut loose right then and cripple if not destroy a number outright, then you've got them stuck in the middle for several minutes where you can just pound them. Its not like Pelleon is some crappy captain, he was pretty good, so the fact that he called a retreat there is just odd.

To be fair, you can raise deflector shields and come out with them on in hyperspace (ANH novelization with MF makes that clear.)

I'm one of the "Pellaeon should be court-martialed for Bilbringi" school. There were a couple of leakers, but there is no clear indication that the Imperial fleet was suddenly thrown into deep, deep shit. Pellaeon should have adjusted his formation and kept pounding.

I suppose Pellaeon was just demoralized - leader dead, operations everywhere else failing. He's not a man with a whole lot of self-confidence (at least in this stage) - he took FORTY-FIVE years to make Captain, that because the real captain was dead, and one of his first orders after assuming command was a RETREAT. After which he had no doubt given lots of other retreat orders (he admits they were being pushed "back", and no one is sure how many of them are justified.) I'm surprised anybody still followed him, except by seniority.

Kamakazie Sith · Post by **Kamakazie Sith** » 2003-12-09 07:14pm

Master of Ossus wrote:
In short, the Imperial strategy was designed to take advantage of the third dimension without allowing any ships to be engaged by a concentration of Alliance ships, yet still offered them the flexibility to engage Alliance vessels if they chose to break and run. When the fight actually began between the two fleets, the two sides showed little interest in formation and quickly spread apart to engage targets of opportunity. In "Sacrifice of Angels," both sides actually took pains to maintain the wall formation even after they had begun the engagement, and did not coordinate their weapons fire appropriately. Still more shocking, the wall formation allowed for easy "flanking" maneuvers, which were apparently highly dangerous to both sides, but offered little opportunity to respond.

The Dominion fleet was there to delay the UFP fleet till the reinforcements from the GQ arrived but even with that the Dominion fleet outnumbered the UFP fleet 2 to 1 thus I don't see why the Dominion fleet sat back.

The UFP fleets only goal was to reach DS9 at all costs and stop the minefield from being taken down.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2003-12-09 07:18pm

Illuminatus Primus wrote:
Ender wrote:[Seriously, the fleet comes out of hyperspace, shields down, you can cut loose right then and cripple if not destroy a number outright, then you've got them stuck in the middle for several minutes where you can just pound them. Its not like Pelleon is some crappy captain, he was pretty good, so the fact that he called a retreat there is just odd.
Shields are down? I don't seen any reason they can't be raised while in hyperspace.

No reason they can't be raised, but they expected to still have some time before they needed to. You don't run something maintenance and energy intensive unless you need to.

And Pelleaon's record is pretty dismal.

Based on what?

Kazuaki Shimazaki · Post by **Kazuaki Shimazaki** » 2003-12-09 07:29pm

Ender wrote:No reason they can't be raised, but they expected to still have some time before they needed to. You don't run something maintenance and energy intensive unless you need to.

So, when you go into battle, instead of making yourself ready for anything, you try to save a little power by not going into a "battle stance" until about ten seconds before you THINK the enemy would throw the punch?

I'd prefer to be ready for anything. Remember that they were really thrown into battle only a fraction of a second prior to their exit time. They should have finished preparations.

Based on what?

The fact he took 45 years to make Captain is a clue.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-12-09 07:41pm

darthdavid wrote:Real fighter craft, Eu examples of manuvers, Etc...

Incorrect on fighter craft. Starfleet has Strike Fighters, the Peregrine Tactical Fighter. While they lack superiority fighters, this is because they have no use for them because their enemies lack strike fighters or bombers. Tac-Fighters proved quite useful against the Cardassian ships.

PainRack · Post by **PainRack** » 2003-12-09 07:49pm

Stravo wrote:I was wondering this the other day while trying to plan out a future massive battle scene. Mike makes a point in his page about the shity wall of ships like disposition of Trek ships in combat. We see this most prominently in Sacrifice of Angels when the two fleet just sit there in front of each other and start pounding away.

But then my thoughts turn to Endor, the only true Wars depiction of massed fleet engagement in the movies that we see....and its two walls of ships pounding away at each other.

Thoughts?

How is Wars superior in fleet engagements in the deployment of their ships?

That's thinking small.

The Truce at Bakura Sourcebook touches on the Battle of Endor in some detail and in it, it makes clear that the battle arena was not just over the Death Star and Endor itself, but around the entire system. A series of interdictor ships have been placed all around the system, thus preventing the Rebels from jumping out while the Imps, in two pincer formations moved in and enclosed the Rebels, thus trapping them between the hammer of the Imperial Fleet and the Anvil of the Death Star.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-12-09 08:24pm

Ender wrote:No reason they can't be raised, but they expected to still have some time before they needed to. You don't run something maintenance and energy intensive unless you need to.

They were within eyesight of the Bilbringi shipyards when they were yanked out of hyperspace by the Interdictors. At the speeds hyperdrives propel the vessel in question, it'd be within a second of re-entry anyway. One would think the shields would already be activated. Not that I suggest energy shields are perpetually active.

I'll respond to the other bit in awhile. I'm pretty busy right now.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2003-12-09 08:51pm

Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote:
Based on what?
The fact he took 45 years to make Captain is a clue.

Unlike enlisted, officer promotion is based off of time in and politics. Really doesn't say much except that he had few political contacts or pissed someone off.

Publius · Post by **Publius** » 2003-12-09 08:52pm

The Imperial formation at Endor was a two-part flanking manoeuvre intended to trap the rebel fleet (Return of the Jedi, VII):

The large central view-screen was coming alive. It was no longer just the Death Star and the green moon behind it, floating isolated in space. Now the massive Imperial fleet could be seen flying in perfect, regimental formation, out from behind Endor in two behemoth flanking waves -- heading to surround the Rebel fleet from both sides, like the pincers of a deadly scorpion.

And the shield barricaded the Alliance in front. They had nowhere to go.

Furthermore, the Battle of Endor, despite being the only canonical view of a major fleet engagement, cannot be considered as typical of space combat in Star Wars (VIII):

Desperately, he [GEN Calrissian] was shouting into his comlink, over the noise of continuous explosions, talking to Ackbar in the Alliance command ship. "I said closer! Move in as close as you can and engage the Star Destroyers at point blank range -- that way the Death Star won't be able to fire at us without knocking out its own ships!"

"But no one's ever gone nose to nose at that range, between supervessels like their Destroyers and our Cruisers!" Ackbar fumed at the unthinkable but their options were running out.

"Great!" yelled Lando, skimming over the surface of the Destroyer. "Then we're inventing a new kind of combat!"

"We know nothing about the tactics of such a confrontation!" Ackbar protested.

"We know as much as they do!" Lando hollered. "And they'll think we know more!" Bluffing was always dangerous in the last hand: but sometimes, when all your money was in the pot, it was the only way to win -- and Lando never played to lose.

"At that close range, we won't last long against Star Destroyers." Ackbar was already feeling giddy with resignation.

Although this dialogue does not appear in the film, the context and content of the conversation remains canonical; the Battle of Endor marks a major paradigmatic shift in space combat, with close quarter engagement between heavy warships ("supervessels") taking place of long-range bombardment. In many ways, Endor represents a sort of "anti-Midway" in space.

Notice that ADM Ackbar had little to no confidence in the performance of his Star Cruisers against FADM Piett's Star Destroyers. In fact, earlier he explicitly acknowledged as correct his First Star captain's statement that "we don't stand much of a chance against those Star Destroyers. They out-gun us, and they're more heavily armored [sic]". In terms of pre-Endor long-range space combat, the Star Destroyers had a clear upper hand, but appeared to perform badly in Endor-style combat (this could possibly be the reason for the Expanded Universe's variant of the commonest Star Destroyer design).

PUBLIUS

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-12-09 08:55pm

Ender wrote:
Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote:
Based on what?
The fact he took 45 years to make Captain is a clue.
Unlike enlisted, officer promotion is based off of time in and politics. Really doesn't say much except that he had few political contacts or pissed someone off.

He also didn't acquire Line Captain but by default after his CO died and he illegally took control of the fleet at Endor over Fleet Admirals who out-ranked him (and at that time he was an Ensign, and was acting-Captain).

He lost every campiagn and battle he's ever fought in, except for briefly nuking the 1,040 metre Endourance fleet carrier with a SSD.

Exceptional officers can clearly advance without political or familial contacts. Piett was a local boy who made High Admiral before middle age.

Kazuaki Shimazaki · Post by **Kazuaki Shimazaki** » 2003-12-09 09:00pm

Publius wrote:Although this dialogue does not appear in the film, the context and content of the conversation remains canonical; the Battle of Endor marks a major paradigmatic shift in space combat, with close quarter engagement between heavy warships ("supervessels") taking place of long-range bombardment. In many ways, Endor represents a sort of "anti-Midway" in space.

Notice that ADM Ackbar had little to no confidence in the performance of his Star Cruisers against FADM Piett's Star Destroyers. In fact, earlier he explicitly acknowledged as correct his First Star captain's statement that "we don't stand much of a chance against those Star Destroyers. They out-gun us, and they're more heavily armored [sic]". In terms of pre-Endor long-range space combat, the Star Destroyers had a clear upper hand, but appeared to perform badly in Endor-style combat (this could possibly be the reason for the Expanded Universe's variant of the commonest Star Destroyer design).

PUBLIUS

Actually, this tactic has also been immortalized as the Brawl (considered a desperation maneuver) in the Rebel Alliance Sourcebook's chapter on Capital Ships. The real innovation at best is to incorporate it with vessels that big.

Kazuaki Shimazaki · Post by **Kazuaki Shimazaki** » 2003-12-09 09:08pm

Illuminatus Primus wrote:He also didn't acquire Line Captain but by default after his CO died and he illegally took control of the fleet at Endor over Fleet Admirals who out-ranked him (and at that time he was an Ensign, and was acting-Captain).

Pellaeon was an ENSIGN for FORTY-FIVE years? He's even worse than I thought! Where are the lieutenants and commanders above him? All dead on the main bridge?

He lost every campiagn and battle he's ever fought in, except for briefly nuking the 1,040 metre Endourance fleet carrier with a SSD.

I hadn't seen all the engagements. But I do know Pellaeon is retreat-minded.

He assumes command at Endor. Instead of trying to reassemble the fleet, he retreats.

He retreats for years.

He sees four Assault Frigates. He retreats. Fortunately Thrawn stopped him.

He assumes command at Bilbringi. He retreats. This time Thrawn isn't there to stop him.

He makes a lunge at Orinda. Then he retreats.

He continues to retreat. It is getting almost comical.

Exceptional officers can clearly advance without political or familial contacts. Piett was a local boy who made High Admiral before middle age.

To be fair, Vader force-promoted Piett from Captain to FADM, then to HADM. Not a fair comparison, and leaves one wondering where Ozzel's XO, or Chief of Staff, or anybody else in between Captain and Fleet Admiral in Vader's Death Squadron is.

Publius · Post by **Publius** » 2003-12-09 09:38pm

Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote:
Illuminatus Primus wrote:He also didn't acquire Line Captain but by default after his CO died and he illegally took control of the fleet at Endor over Fleet Admirals who out-ranked him (and at that time he was an Ensign, and was acting-Captain).
Pellaeon was an ENSIGN for FORTY-FIVE years? He's even worse than I thought! Where are the lieutenants and commanders above him? All dead on the main bridge?

According to the Star Wars Encyclopedia CAPT Pellaeon was Executive Officer, HIMS Chimaera at the time of the Battle of Endor. He was a post-captain (O-6) but not a Commanding Officer.

Nevertheless his assumption of command of the fleet was quite illegal, as he disregarded the presence of not less than two flag officers (ADM Harrsk and GADM Osvald Teshik) and the Commanding Officers of the other Star Destroyers present.

Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote:To be fair, Vader force-promoted Piett from Captain to FADM, then to HADM. Not a fair comparison, and leaves one wondering where Ozzel's XO, or Chief of Staff, or anybody else in between Captain and Fleet Admiral in Vader's Death Squadron is.

According to the Star Wars Encyclopedia CAPT Piett "aided Admiral Ozzel in overseeing the crew as well as helping to direct the entire fleet". It appears that CAPT Piett himself was also Deputy Commander Death Squadron in addition to being Commanding Officer, HIMS Executor. This seems roughly comparable to CAPT Pellaeon's position with relation to GADM Thrawn during the latter's Supreme Command.

FADM Piett is not the only example of an officer advanced rapidly by merit. You might notice that CAPT Fel had command of a Dreadnaught heavy cruiser shortly after his graduation from the Naval Academy, despite a lack of political patrons.

PUBLIUS

StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Wars/Trek Fleet Dispositions

Wars/Trek Fleet Dispositions

Re: Wars/Trek Fleet Dispositions