Bush Opposes Taiwan Indepence

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2003-12-09 03:30pm

Linky doubtful if anything good will result from this or not. . . .

Tribun · Post by **Tribun** » 2003-12-09 04:58pm

When the big $ shows his head, every politican becomes a follower of it. So it's no wonder......

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-12-09 04:59pm

The most likely reason is Bush doesn't want another crisis while North Korea is still raising hell, and the PRC is a key part of that.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2003-12-09 05:18pm

Nothing good can come of this, nothing good at all

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2003-12-09 07:10pm

Didn't we make some promise that China would 'eventually' be reunified, back when Taiwan first split off?

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-12-09 07:21pm

I wish we would've just declared two Chinas decades ago, and made that policy.

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » 2003-12-09 08:26pm

I wish we would have just gone in there and nuked those bastards durring Korea. Better yet, go and nuke the USSR after having time to regroup in Germany durring ww2. Still better, gone full out to support White Russia durring the Archangel Campaign.

Post by **Vympel** » 2003-12-10 04:36am

Illuminatus Primus wrote:

I wish we would've just declared two Chinas decades ago, and made that policy.

That would've screwed the efforts to get China away from the USSR in the Cold War- it was quite important until the late 80s.

Stuart Mackey · Post by **Stuart Mackey** » 2003-12-10 04:52am

Bah. Taiwan should just declare independence and get this pointless charade over with.

Darth Fanboy · Post by **Darth Fanboy** » 2003-12-10 06:14am

Taiwan should take a hard look at its position, if they try and avoid pissing off the Chinese they might be able to get the same status Hong Kong has or better.

Though to be technical If China had really wanted Taiwan so badly to beginw ith they should have taken it over back in the late forties/early fifties like they did with the mainland rather than wait until now to start pissing and moaning.

Frank Hipper · Post by **Frank Hipper** » 2003-12-10 06:49am

Stuart Mackey wrote:Bah. Taiwan should just declare independence and get this pointless charade over with.

That would require a massive injection of sensible thinking, and I doubt that's going to happen.

Ypoknons · Post by **Ypoknons** » 2003-12-10 08:00am

Darth Fanboy wrote:Taiwan should take a hard look at its position, if they try and avoid pissing off the Chinese they might be able to get the same status Hong Kong has or better.

Taiwan's in a better shape now than Hong Kong is. There's wide dissatisfaction with the Hong Kong government and the economy is a horrible state - even before SARS came in.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-12-10 08:27am

Darth Fanboy wrote: Though to be technical If China had really wanted Taiwan so badly to beginw ith they should have taken it over back in the late forties/early fifties like they did with the mainland rather than wait until now to start pissing and moaning.

They couldn't do it. The PRC has NEVER had the capability to invade Taiwan.

Darth Fanboy · Post by **Darth Fanboy** » 2003-12-10 08:45am

Sea Skimmer wrote:
Darth Fanboy wrote: Though to be technical If China had really wanted Taiwan so badly to beginw ith they should have taken it over back in the late forties/early fifties like they did with the mainland rather than wait until now to start pissing and moaning.
They couldn't do it. The PRC has NEVER had the capability to invade Taiwan.

THey never had the capcity, they never were able to acheive any sort of authority, HOW tHe HELL CAN THEY THEN MAKE A CLAIM?

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-12-10 09:24am

Darth Fanboy wrote:
THey never had the capcity, they never were able to acheive any sort of authority, HOW tHe HELL CAN THEY THEN MAKE A CLAIM?

Because it was a part of China for several thousand years previously, and for some time the nationalists who fled to the island (and could only do so because of the aid of the USN) where claiming control of the rest of China.

septesix · Post by **septesix** » 2003-12-10 01:52pm

Sea Skimmer wrote:
Darth Fanboy wrote:
THey never had the capcity, they never were able to acheive any sort of authority, HOW tHe HELL CAN THEY THEN MAKE A CLAIM?
Because it was a part of China for several thousand years previously, and for some time the nationalists who fled to the island (and could only do so because of the aid of the USN) where claiming control of the rest of China.

It was part of China not much longer than USA was part of Britian..

This is no news. USA doesn't want to see Taiwan go independent because it will have to fight a war with Taiwan (Image the out-cry of letting a propsper , democratic states being invaded by a dictatorship while the USA does nothing.) , It doesnt' want to see Taiwan go back to China either, because it meant a loss in millions of dollars in arms sales to taiwan, not to metion an inherent advantage for Taiwaness captials when competeing against american in the Chinese market.

Everyone is a bit surprise that Bush came right out to say about opposing taiwan independence, and everyone missed that he also said about opposing China trying to change the status quo as well. the USA want the current situation go on forever so ultimately it benefit the most.

Post by **Steve** » 2003-12-10 06:34pm

Jeremy wrote:I wish we would have just gone in there and nuked those bastards durring Korea.

You just started World War III with the US having precious few nukes to use while the West is still demobilized and struggling to rebuild from WWII.

What you should do is keep MacArthur on a tight leash and forbid him to use anything but South Korean forces north of the 38th, and certainly not as far as the Yalu. Don't give Mao the excuse he needs.

Try not to sack him if you can help it, though. You might have problems with Congress approving needed deployments in Europe, given MacArthur's popularity.

Better yet, go and nuke the USSR after having time to regroup in Germany durring ww2.

We didn't have enough nukes until near the end of the decade, and neither did we have sufficient B-29s capable of nuclear delivery. If you don't turn Patton loose on the Reds before demobilization, forget about it.

Still better, gone full out to support White Russia durring the Archangel Campaign.

The West tried, but it was a horribly-conducted intervention with differing interests on the part of the interfering powers.

The situation might have improved if the West had supported Ukrainian independence and then helped the Poles in the Russo-Polish War. But the Whites were badly out of touch with the rest of Russia; the Reds had charismatic leaders and superior will.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-12-10 08:43pm

Darth_Zod wrote:Linky doubtful if anything good will result from this or not. . . .

Given that a lot of Taiwan isn't in favor of their declaring independence I don't see why that's so shocking. And it's not like it's new US policy or anything, we've maintained a "one china, two governments" policy since the end of World War Two.

septesix · Post by **septesix** » 2003-12-10 10:42pm

Just read some news report from yesterday...

Even the USA governemnt cannot explain their own action now.

They are calling the referendum process "a political move" and not a "democratic one". even after Taiwan's president has clearly stated that the referendum is not going to change the status quo, but rather to make offical the displeasure of the taiwaness people of having nearly 500 long range missile aiming at our home at the moment...

They digged a hole so deep, it will be funny to see how they get out of it. That is , if anyone cares enough to follow through anyway...

Stuart Mackey · Post by **Stuart Mackey** » 2003-12-11 07:22am

Darth Fanboy wrote:Taiwan should take a hard look at its position, if they try and avoid pissing off the Chinese they might be able to get the same status Hong Kong has or better.

If Taiwan took a good look at Hong Kong they would realise that they would be screwed, not to mention realis that China cannot do much except nuke em.

Though to be technical If China had really wanted Taiwan so badly to beginw ith they should have taken it over back in the late forties/early fifties like they did with the mainland rather than wait until now to start pissing and moaning.

Like the Chinese have ever actually been able to invade Taiwan...

Grand Moff Yenchin · Post by **Grand Moff Yenchin** » 2003-12-11 02:00pm

Darth Fanboy wrote:Though to be technical If China had really wanted Taiwan so badly to beginw ith they should have taken it over back in the late forties/early fifties like they did with the mainland rather than wait until now to start pissing and moaning.

The War of Gu Ning Tou as well as the 823 Artillery War showed that China could'nt even take a swim in the Taiwan Strait.

Skimmer: China never had actual authority over Taiwan until the Manchurians made it part of the Fukien province (1684). Before that, so far they controlled Penghu. Taiwan was lost in 1895, and according to the Independence supporters, Japan gave up their authority at the 1951 San Franscico Treaty, which meant that it was never given back to China. However some books mention about the statement made at the Cairo Conference saying that Taiwan was given back.

Uraniun235 · Post by **Uraniun235** » 2003-12-11 02:29pm

This is no news. USA doesn't want to see Taiwan go independent because it will have to fight a war with Taiwan

I can't believe China would be that stupid. They'd be pissing away so much hardware and troops in what would be a slaughter, and if they nuked Taiwan they'd suffer massive loss of face in international politics; either way, their economy takes a hit, and that's something they'd certainly want to avoid.

Symmetry · Post by **Symmetry** » 2003-12-15 05:54pm

Sea Skimmer wrote:
Darth Fanboy wrote:
THey never had the capcity, they never were able to acheive any sort of authority, HOW tHe HELL CAN THEY THEN MAKE A CLAIM?
Because it was a part of China for several thousand years previously, and for some time the nationalists who fled to the island (and could only do so because of the aid of the USN) where claiming control of the rest of China.

I though it had only been part of China between 1000 and 1500 or so? Just a moment....According to Wikipedia the Ming first took Taiwan from the Dutch in 1662, and its been in Chinese hands about half the time since then.

septesix · Post by **septesix** » 2003-12-16 02:02am

Symmetry wrote:
Sea Skimmer wrote:
Darth Fanboy wrote:
THey never had the capcity, they never were able to acheive any sort of authority, HOW tHe HELL CAN THEY THEN MAKE A CLAIM?
Because it was a part of China for several thousand years previously, and for some time the nationalists who fled to the island (and could only do so because of the aid of the USN) where claiming control of the rest of China.
I though it had only been part of China between 1000 and 1500 or so? Just a moment....According to Wikipedia the Ming first took Taiwan from the Dutch in 1662, and its been in Chinese hands about half the time since then.

The Ming took taiwan in much the same way KMT took Taiwan...They lost Mainland china, and therefore they fled with their strength to taiwan.

Okay so it's not entirely the same. But it's still a very similar scenario. After that Taiwan remained out of "China" control for about ...half a decades, I think, before China Captured it again. Then it's about 100 or 150 years before they lose it to the Japaness who hold onto it for about the same time..

The case of Taiwan belonging to China by historical precedent is just..well, weak.

KrauserKrauser · Post by **KrauserKrauser** » 2003-12-16 03:35am

Taiwan is just a political rock and a hard place. Hopefully the chinese populace will continue to get more educated and independent and hopefully call for the further capitalization and democritization of the government. I don't know, it's just a big sticky situation.

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