Wars/Trek Fleet Dispositions

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Post by Rogue 9 »

Wherever the XO and Chief of Staff were, they were not in Vader's line of vision at the time. I suspect that in his rage, Vader just promoted the first fleet officer to cross his eyesight.

As for running from assault frigates, what was Pellaeon commanding at the time? And I don't remember him ever commanding an SSD. Four assault frigates are formidable indeed. I don't know if X-Wing: Alliance exaggerated them any, but they can take out any other frigate class vessel with ease, and four could likely take on an Imperial Star Destroyer. I'll set up that scenario and play it out. I don't expect you to take that at face value (I don't) but its the best indication I have that would explain that.

And how do you briefly nuke anything? Once something's nuked, its usually nuked. :wink:
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Post by Kazuaki Shimazaki »

Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote:
Publius wrote:Pellaeon was an ENSIGN for FORTY-FIVE years? He's even worse than I thought! Where are the lieutenants and commanders above him? All dead on the main bridge?
According to the Star Wars Encyclopedia CAPT Pellaeon was Executive Officer, HIMS Chimaera at the time of the Battle of Endor. He was a post-captain (O-6) but not a Commanding Officer.
Thanks.
According to the Star Wars Encyclopedia CAPT Piett "aided Admiral Ozzel in overseeing the crew as well as helping to direct the entire fleet". It appears that CAPT Piett himself was also Deputy Commander Death Squadron in addition to being Commanding Officer, HIMS Executor. This seems roughly comparable to CAPT Pellaeon's position with relation to GADM Thrawn during the latter's Supreme Command.
Great, despite its power and considered a Fleet-level position, Death Squadron has a less solid staff structure than an average Imp Commodore-led squadron...
FADM Piett is not the only example of an officer advanced rapidly by merit. You might notice that CAPT Fel had command of a Dreadnaught heavy cruiser shortly after his graduation from the Naval Academy, despite a lack of political patrons.
Really? How fast?
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Post by Publius »

According to the Star Wars Encyclopedia CAPT Piett "aided Admiral Ozzel in overseeing the crew as well as helping to direct the entire fleet". It appears that CAPT Piett himself was also Deputy Commander Death Squadron in addition to being Commanding Officer, HIMS Executor. This seems roughly comparable to CAPT Pellaeon's position with relation to GADM Thrawn during the latter's Supreme Command.
Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote:Great, despite its power and considered a Fleet-level position, Death Squadron has a less solid staff structure than an average Imp Commodore-led squadron...
Not necessarily so. FADM Piett was aided by two "fleet captains" on the bridge of HIMS Executor at Endor (ref. Return of the Jedi), and a "personal advisor" (deep-space transmissions expert and former Naval aviator ADM Chiraneau), presumably an administrative assistant or chief of staff (ref. "* Admiral Chiraneau").

Indeed, the absence of a separate chief of staff to FADM Ozzel may be a political measure. Neither Lord Vader nor the Galactic Emperor trusted ADM Ozzel or his "close advisors" (ref. "* Captain Needa"), and he may well have been denied the right to select a chief of staff. CAPT Piett was assigned to command HIMS Executor under FADM Griff by Lord Vader (ref. The New Essential Guide to Characters); he may have been made deputy commander and chief of staff to ensure that a reliable and loyal officer were by necessity close to FADM Ozzel.
Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote:Really? How fast?
According to The New Essential Guide to Characters, he was promoted captain after a tour of duty with the 37th Imperial Fighter Wing immediately upon graduation, and after a second tour of duty was appointed Commanding Officer, HIMS Pride of the Senate.

Mr. Wallace appears to have confused the Army/Marines/Air Force rank of captain (O-3) with the Naval rank of post captain (O-6), as he documents CAPT Fel's subsequent assignment as an instructor at the Prefsbelt IV Naval Academy, punitive transfer to the 181st Imperial Fighter Wing (COL Evir Derricote commanding), and promotion to major (O-4). The simplest correction is that his punitive transfer to the 181st was accompanied by demotion from O-6 to O-3 (and that he adopted a Army-style rank while acting as a Naval aviator).

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Post by Publius »

Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote:Great, despite its power and considered a Fleet-level position, Death Squadron has a less solid staff structure than an average Imp Commodore-led squadron...
Not necessarily so. FADM Piett was aided by two "fleet captains" on the bridge of HIMS Executor at Endor (ref. Return of the Jedi), and a "personal advisor" (deep-space transmissions expert and former Naval aviator ADM Chiraneau), presumably an administrative assistant or chief of staff (ref. "* Admiral Chiraneau").

Indeed, the absence of a separate chief of staff to FADM Ozzel may be a political measure. Neither Lord Vader nor the Galactic Emperor trusted ADM Ozzel or his "close advisors" (ref. "* Captain Needa"), and he may well have been denied the right to select a chief of staff. CAPT Piett was assigned to command HIMS Executor under FADM Griff by Lord Vader (ref. The New Essential Guide to Characters); he may have been made deputy commander and chief of staff to ensure that a reliable and loyal officer were by necessity close to FADM Ozzel.
Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote:Really? How fast?
According to The New Essential Guide to Characters, he was promoted captain after a tour of duty with the 37th Imperial Fighter Wing immediately upon graduation, and after a second tour of duty was appointed Commanding Officer, HIMS Pride of the Senate.

Mr. Wallace appears to have confused the Army/Marines/Air Force rank of captain (O-3) with the Naval rank of post captain (O-6), as he documents CAPT Fel's subsequent assignment as an instructor at the Prefsbelt IV Naval Academy, punitive transfer to the 181st Imperial Fighter Wing (COL Evir Derricote commanding), and promotion to major (O-4).

The simplest correction is that his punitive transfer to the 181st was accompanied by demotion from O-6 to O-3 (and that he adopted a Army-style rank while acting as a Naval aviator), and that there was a somewhat longer interval prior to his appointment to command HIMS Pride of the Senate.

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Post by Publius »

Could a moderator or administrator correct the preceding error?

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Post by Darth Garden Gnome »

Baron Fel was given the rank of lieutenant after graduating with salutatorian honors from the Caridan Military Academy. During his first tour of duty as a TIE/LN pilot he performed exceptionally and was promoted to Captain of the Dreadnaught Pride of the Senate where he failed his mission to perform a Base Delta Zero operation on Nar Shadda.

Captain Pelleaon's case is an odd one. Despite the presence of a Grand Admiral in the Endor battle fleet (contradicted by the NEGTC's account of the situation), and long before the battle was over (Grand Admiral Teshik was able to drag out hte fight for another three hours), he did indeed retreat.

The next time command was thrust upon him was Bilbringi. But it did appear as if the Imperial navy there was in trouble; one of the stardock's mighty Golan IIs had been damaged, and Rebel starships had broken out of Thrawn's encirclement maneuver and a fleet of smugglers (whose vessels were less than exceptional) had joined the battle.

There is a breif period where he participates in Operation Shadow Hand and then serves in Warlord Teradoc's fleet.

Fast forward to his service with Admiral Daala, where the mission against the Jedi Temple on Yavin 4 went awry due to the impressive abilities of the Jedi. By the time the Knight Hammer was destroyed Pellaeon's fleet had begun the retreat--but when facing down this unknown threat on Yavin that had single-handedly pushed his fleet to the edge of the system, I wouldn't blame him.

Pellaeon then scores two big wins when he captures Orinda and her six neighboring planets, and then again when he stops the New Republic fleet from advancing into the heart of the Empire in the Antemeridian sector.

Then apparently at he battles of Champala and Anx Minor, Pellaeon "gambled the future of the Empire" on their success, and lost, bringing the Empire to what it is by Vision of the Future. He must have really blew it there (I would like to say he took more losses than six Star Destroyers before the Empire disintegrated, but those are the only accounts of the two battles).

It would appear then that Gilad Pellaeon has not had many chances to prove himself; in the end he bet it all but no dice.
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Post by Rogue 9 »

A BDZ from a Dreadnought? Do they pack that kind of power? :shock: And you're right about Pellaeon. He never struck me as incompetent. He was a good (not exceptional) commander who just got unlucky.

But that's not why I like the character. He just seems to be a decent man who wound up on the wrong side because of the nature of the Empire's rise. (I seem to remember that he mentions serving under the Old Republic as an officer, but I'm not sure anymore. Need to read again.) Its just interesting that they didn't all make like Crix Madine and jump. But Madine wouldn't have if it wasn't for that genocide mission he was given. Pellaeon was never sent on one of the Emperor's little death rides, as I recall. Could be wrong, though.
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Post by Illuminatus Primus »

Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote:To be fair, Vader force-promoted Piett from Captain to FADM, then to HADM. Not a fair comparison, and leaves one wondering where Ozzel's XO, or Chief of Staff, or anybody else in between Captain and Fleet Admiral in Vader's Death Squadron is.
According to the NEGTC, HADM Piett had genius rivalling those of the tweleve (thirteen?) Grand Admirals. He was certainly more worthy of ranking as HADM than the idiotic Ozzel, promoted due to good connections ahead of more brilliant junior officers without them like Piett.
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Post by Illuminatus Primus »

He also lost his command ship during Operation SHADOWHAND at Duro.

He similarly lost the Reaper; presumably against Antillies.

The Orinda Campiagn was a failure: he gambled over Antimeridian and Meridian Sectors and he lost all surrounding territories except for the Orinda System itself. A single system, and most surrounding territories/gains lost is not a very successful campiagn. He lost. He achieved no real strategic goal, and wasted a lot of fight they didn't have to spare, while the NRDF absorbed the campiagn and fought back, and could afford those losses.
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Post by Kazuaki Shimazaki »

Publius wrote:Not necessarily so. FADM Piett was aided by two "fleet captains" on the bridge of HIMS Executor at Endor (ref. Return of the Jedi), and a "personal advisor" (deep-space transmissions expert and former Naval aviator ADM Chiraneau), presumably an administrative assistant or chief of staff (ref. "* Admiral Chiraneau").
Yes, they were a much needed addition.
Indeed, the absence of a separate chief of staff to FADM Ozzel may be a political measure. Neither Lord Vader nor the Galactic Emperor trusted ADM Ozzel or his "close advisors" (ref. "* Captain Needa"), and he may well have been denied the right to select a chief of staff. CAPT Piett was assigned to command HIMS Executor under FADM Griff by Lord Vader (ref. The New Essential Guide to Characters); he may have been made deputy commander and chief of staff to ensure that a reliable and loyal officer were by necessity close to FADM Ozzel.
If Ozzel wasn't trust, and considering how many commanders there are out there, why don't they bring someone else in?
According to The New Essential Guide to Characters, he was promoted captain after a tour of duty with the 37th Imperial Fighter Wing immediately upon graduation, and after a second tour of duty was appointed Commanding Officer, HIMS Pride of the Senate.

Mr. Wallace appears to have confused the Army/Marines/Air Force rank of captain (O-3) with the Naval rank of post captain (O-6), as he documents CAPT Fel's subsequent assignment as an instructor at the Prefsbelt IV Naval Academy, punitive transfer to the 181st Imperial Fighter Wing (COL Evir Derricote commanding), and promotion to major (O-4). The simplest correction is that his punitive transfer to the 181st was accompanied by demotion from O-6 to O-3 (and that he adopted a Army-style rank while acting as a Naval aviator).
I sometimes wonder whether the real "captain" rank involved in these cases is something like "Captain-Lieutenant" (used in Germany and Russia) or Corvette-Captain (used in Germany.) But the prefix or suffix is left out because the translator did not understand the difference (I doubt they studied military ranks in other countries to get perspective before proceeding.)

It won't explain this one cleanly, because Crespin put a "Commander" Toniv under Fel. But it will explain many of the times like:

In Bacta War, Commander Convarion is implied to be higher than a Captain. Saxton does some pretty wierd gyrations about him possibly being a Commodore (that would make him Isard's senior officer, and makes one wonder why he didn't get the SSD.) But perhaps he could have meant he was higher than Captain-Lieutenant, and Isard removed that last cylinder to make him a full Captain.

In Crespin's Rebel Dawn, Commander Tharen is higher than Tedris. Saxton rationalizes Tedris' captaincy is figurative, and his rank is lieutenant. I prefer to think he IS some kind of Captain, just not the full Captain zur See that Saxton seems to think is the only form of naval captain rank.

In Wraith Squadron, Piggy is promised a naval captaincy within a year if he transfers to Fleet. I really doubt Wedge meant he'd be senior to himself within a year. (If that were so, and I'm Piggy, I'd transfer, get my O-6 rank and pay, and come back to starfighters as about a Colonel.)
-----
As an aside, Sometimes Saxton goes into some pretty wierd gyrations to try to force everything to fit into not only Terran, but British style military fashion!

Nobody but Saxton that seriously reads Wraith Squadron would think Allston meant to promote Klivian to being senior to Wedge just because he's a "Captain."

When Face became "brevet Captain," did Saxton take that to mean Face is now senior to Wedge? I doubt it.

And I can't believe Saxton put himself into a spin just because Lieutenant Donos commanded a squadron. Ranks from Lieutenant all the way to Lieutenant-Colonel have commanded squadrons at one military or another at various times!
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Post by Kazuaki Shimazaki »

Illuminatus Primus wrote:According to the NEGTC, HADM Piett had genius rivalling those of the tweleve (thirteen?) Grand Admirals. He was certainly more worthy of ranking as HADM than the idiotic Ozzel, promoted due to good connections ahead of more brilliant junior officers without them like Piett.
Yes, good officers should be promoted faster, but they should still go up in progression and not easily allowed to "jump" ranks. But I cannot believe they couldn't find one senior officer to transfer.

While Thrawn's not perfect, I really couldn't think of anything that says Piett can hold even a candle up against Thrawn. So either the other twelve are dummies, the claim is exaggerating (what great feats did Piett do to justify this sentiment,) or there is something major we don't know.
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Post by Publius »

Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote:If Ozzel wasn't trust, and considering how many commanders there are out there, why don't they bring someone else in?
Therein you will find the Galactic Emperor's Janus-faced nature. He does not trust FADM Ozzel, so he allows Lord Vader to saddle him with a chief of staff whom he dislikes and owes no gratitude to him. Nor does he trust Lord Vader, so he foists onto him an incompetent officer upon whom he cannot rely or place his trust.

In short, the Galactic Emperor mistrusts Lord Vader and FADM Ozzel, both of whom dislike one another; the two were virtually made for one another.

As regards captains, captains, commanders and commodores, that perhaps is a subject for another forum and another thread, no?

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Virtually the entire thread IS off topic

Post by Kazuaki Shimazaki »

As soon as we began talking about Pellaeon, what's left of the thread went into the toilet. Whoever's the moderator could drag off all the posts with the word "Pellaeon" in them to PSW, and do most of the "Piett" ones as well. You'd be left with three, very short threads. :D
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Post by Connor MacLeod »

Don't mind Publius. He has a personal crusade to erase the "illusion" of Thrawn's competency, and anyone connected to him :D
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Post by Publius »

Connor MacLeod wrote:Don't mind Publius. He has a personal crusade to erase the "illusion" of Thrawn's competency, and anyone connected to him :D
Whatever gave you that impression, sir? Neither GADM Thrawn's competence nor that of anyone connected to him is in question here.

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Post by Connor MacLeod »

Publius wrote:
Connor MacLeod wrote:Don't mind Publius. He has a personal crusade to erase the "illusion" of Thrawn's competency, and anyone connected to him :D
Whatever gave you that impression, sir? Neither GADM Thrawn's competence nor that of anyone connected to him is in question here.

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Not "directly" anyhow....

But in any case, I suppose Thrawn is about as useful as that blue-haird thief in final fantasy.. so maybe you have a point.. :D
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Post by Shogoki »

Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote:
Illuminatus Primus wrote:According to the NEGTC, HADM Piett had genius rivalling those of the tweleve (thirteen?) Grand Admirals. He was certainly more worthy of ranking as HADM than the idiotic Ozzel, promoted due to good connections ahead of more brilliant junior officers without them like Piett.
Yes, good officers should be promoted faster, but they should still go up in progression and not easily allowed to "jump" ranks. But I cannot believe they couldn't find one senior officer to transfer.

While Thrawn's not perfect, I really couldn't think of anything that says Piett can hold even a candle up against Thrawn. So either the other twelve are dummies, the claim is exaggerating (what great feats did Piett do to justify this sentiment,) or there is something major we don't know.
Since he was force promoted, my guess is that, yes he was pretty good, but lacked the commanding experience required by such a high rank.
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Post by Crazedwraith »

Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote: It won't explain this one cleanly, because Crespin put a "Commander" Toniv under Fel. But it will explain many of the times like:

In Bacta War, Commander Convarion is implied to be higher than a Captain. Saxton does some pretty wierd gyrations about him possibly being a Commodore (that would make him Isard's senior officer, and makes one wonder why he didn't get the SSD.) But perhaps he could have meant he was higher than Captain-Lieutenant, and Isard removed that last cylinder to make him a full Captain.

In Crespin's Rebel Dawn, Commander Tharen is higher than Tedris. Saxton rationalizes Tedris' captaincy is figurative, and his rank is lieutenant. I prefer to think he IS some kind of Captain, just not the full Captain zur See that Saxton seems to think is the only form of naval captain rank.

In Wraith Squadron, Piggy is promised a naval captaincy within a year if he transfers to Fleet. I really doubt Wedge meant he'd be senior to himself within a year. (If that were so, and I'm Piggy, I'd transfer, get my O-6 rank and pay, and come back to starfighters as about a Colonel.)
-----
As an aside, Sometimes Saxton goes into some pretty wierd gyrations to try to force everything to fit into not only Terran, but British style military fashion!

Nobody but Saxton that seriously reads Wraith Squadron would think Allston meant to promote Klivian to being senior to Wedge just because he's a "Captain."

When Face became "brevet Captain," did Saxton take that to mean Face is now senior to Wedge? I doubt it.

And I can't believe Saxton put himself into a spin just because Lieutenant Donos commanded a squadron. Ranks from Lieutenant all the way to Lieutenant-Colonel have commanded squadrons at one military or another at various times!
Lets not forgett the captain Celchu has consistently served under Commander Antillies for years. The X-Wing books make it very clear that in their rank structure, Commander out ranks captain.
Fighter commands structure appears to be:
Flight officer
Lt.
Captain
Commander
Major
Colonel
General.

Anyone above the rank of captain can command a squadron. Lt.s have under the temporay rank of brevet captain.
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Post by pellaeons_scion »

*looks at username*
From this discussion I think I might change it..
But I guess Ill try and defend him. He wasnt brilliant, at best he was competant and thrown into a situation where his structured world was disrupted. He's still alive, still in the fleet, so thats gotta count for something.

On the other hand, I dont think he works well as a fleet commander..but I havent read anything after that abomination Darksaber
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Post by Rogue 9 »

He's not a bad commander, I still say. Ackbar was better, and the New Republic had him outgunned for his entire career as commander of the Remnant.
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Post by Publius »

Gentlemen, perhaps it would be better to relocate discussions of CAPT Pellaeon's prowess or of captains, captains, &c. to another thread in the "Pure Star Wars" forum, and leave this thread to discussions of fleet engagements.

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