Most Lethal game System

Tasoth · Post by **Tasoth** » 2003-12-10 09:44pm

Now for the fun part. Since I haven't been sucked dry of energy from work, I'll launch into an example of the Unisystem to show why it gets my vote.

In this example, I'll be using an Undead Avenger I cooked up and the Swat/Soldier Archetype.

They come upon each other at no greater then 10 meters apart and are both standing beneath a street light in a city lost to what have you. The Soldier goes first and fires. Adding his adding his Dex of 4 and firearm skill (auto rifle) 4 we start with eight. The player rolls a d10. he gets a five for a 13 and a +1 from being at point blank range. We'll assume the Avenger blows his dodge roll and gets nailed. A 5.56mm round from an assault rifle does d8*4, the multiplier recieving a +1 for being at point blank. Our man rolls a 6 and inflicts a whopping 30 points of life points against the Avenger, the damage for normal bullets doubling once passed the armor. Seeing how the corpse only has 54 dead points (Hp for the undead). he'd be up a creek were if not for his weakness against only holy objects. Dead man's turn.

The Avenger pulls a pair of .45's and takes aim. Since 10m is only short range, he recieves no benefits or penalties.He makes it known that hes going for a head shot at a -4 to hit. He happens to have a Dex of 5 and handgun 4 for a nine. He gets lucky and rolls a 9 0n a d10 for a gran total of 14, the minimum needed to hit something with a particular shot. The soldier blows his dodge and gets nailed. a forty five does d8*4. He gets a 4 for a total of 16 points. The head shot ups the damage multiplier for rounds that get passed armor two steps, so that 16 becomes 64 life points of damage. The soldier with 47 life points goes down, his head's explosion only contained by the helmet.

Thats why it gets my votes. Feel free to provide and example of why your choice in lethal rule system is so.

Arthur_Tuxedo · Post by **Arthur_Tuxedo** » 2003-12-10 10:12pm

Tasoth wrote:Now for the fun part. Since I haven't been sucked dry of energy from work, I'll launch into an example of the Unisystem to show why it gets my vote.

In this example, I'll be using an Undead Avenger I cooked up and the Swat/Soldier Archetype.

They come upon each other at no greater then 10 meters apart and are both standing beneath a street light in a city lost to what have you. The Soldier goes first and fires. Adding his adding his Dex of 4 and firearm skill (auto rifle) 4 we start with eight. The player rolls a d10. he gets a five for a 13 and a +1 from being at point blank range. We'll assume the Avenger blows his dodge roll and gets nailed. A 5.56mm round from an assault rifle does d8*4, the multiplier recieving a +1 for being at point blank. Our man rolls a 6 and inflicts a whopping 30 points of life points against the Avenger, the damage for normal bullets doubling once passed the armor. Seeing how the corpse only has 54 dead points (Hp for the undead). he'd be up a creek were if not for his weakness against only holy objects. Dead man's turn.

The Avenger pulls a pair of .45's and takes aim. Since 10m is only short range, he recieves no benefits or penalties.He makes it known that hes going for a head shot at a -4 to hit. He happens to have a Dex of 5 and handgun 4 for a nine. He gets lucky and rolls a 9 0n a d10 for a gran total of 14, the minimum needed to hit something with a particular shot. The soldier blows his dodge and gets nailed. a forty five does d8*4. He gets a 4 for a total of 16 points. The head shot ups the damage multiplier for rounds that get passed armor two steps, so that 16 becomes 64 life points of damage. The soldier with 47 life points goes down, his head's explosion only contained by the helmet.

Thats why it gets my votes. Feel free to provide and example of why your choice in lethal rule system is so.

If you glanced at the Tensided campaign thread on this forum, I think you'd see that Tensided is indeed more lethal than that. No dodge rolls, and hits aren't just to the "head" or "body", but specific areas like heart, throat, eye, etc. Players get an "action point" each battle that will save them from the effects of an attack to keep them from dropping like flies.

The mechanics of the system you describe actually sound rather similar to Tensided, which is kinda funny I suppose.

Tasoth · Post by **Tasoth** » 2003-12-10 10:30pm

unisystem lets you target vital areas, but at a penalty since a heart is harder to hit then the body in general. Also, the dodge roll is simply to see who rolsl higher. If the shooter scores higher, he succeeds, he fails, then the victim gets out of harms way. You also start getting penalized a cumulative -1 for every defensive/offensive action you take.

Arthur_Tuxedo · Post by **Arthur_Tuxedo** » 2003-12-10 10:34pm

Like I said, similar... but not as good

Utsanomiko · Post by **Utsanomiko** » 2003-12-10 10:37pm

Those AP points have been quite handy. Without them, my character would have been out cold in a subway car from a glancing blow (after killing 3 gang members) for quite some time by now, and Dirk would be just now getting used to the fact that a lead slug had taken up residence in his left aorta.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-12-10 10:40pm

Aberrant can be nasty. You need three levels of superhuman speed before you can even avoid gunfire without handy crates to hide behind. Of course, the Puny Human... Rule makes it very fatal for NPC's.

Graeme Dice · Post by **Graeme Dice** » 2003-12-10 10:59pm

Actually, I think that the combat engine used in the Dominions wargames would fit the bill as well. The average human has 10 hitpoints. The average human also has 10 strength. A hit does damage equal to:
(strength + weapon damage + 2d6 (open ended)) - (armor + 2d6 (open ended))

So if you don't wear any armour, a single hit is virtually guaranteed to kill you. And someone with just their fists only has to get really lucky once to wipe out your typical dragon.

Thunderfire · Post by **Thunderfire** » 2003-12-11 03:50am

Ok here is a GURPS example. Worf charges Han Solo who is equiped with
a blaster rifle. Han Solos blaster rifle does 42d6 damage and he hits
Worf in the chest. Worf fails his passive defense roll and gets hit. Han get
a bit unlucky on his damage roll and inficts only 90 points of damage.
Worf has 15 HT and his armor stops 2 points on damge. this leaves us
88 points of damage which are doubled because blasters do impaling
damage. Massive damage rules means that there will be no blowthough.
The shot puts Worf below the - 10xHT value vaporizing him instantly.

dworkin · Post by **dworkin** » 2003-12-11 06:43am

DPDarkPrimus wrote:Lol! WTF?

Traveller had a character generation system much like Cyberpunk 2020 but instead of angsty things happening to you, you had to make a survival roll for each term. Fail the roll, you're dead pal.

Each term granted you options to gain stuff (skills, stats, charge accounts). To balance this there was the risk of dying from being the Traveller equivalent of a redshirt.

Slartibartfast · Post by **Slartibartfast** » 2003-12-11 01:21pm

SAMAS wrote:Rifts, if you forget body armor.

GAH!!! DIE DIE RIFTS AND ITS MAGIC MEGADAMAGE UNDODGEABLE 4-MISSILE VOLLEY OF DEATH!!!

SAMAS · Post by **SAMAS** » 2003-12-11 02:22pm

SirNitram wrote:If you have a handheld pistol that can bring down large armoured targets, and you're still building the large, armoured targets, the system has very little thought behind it.

Well, the armor has grown alongside the weapons, of course. So shooting a Mega-damage pistol at a Mega-damage tank is only a little more effective than shooting a normal gun at a normal tank.

Arthur_Tuxedo · Post by **Arthur_Tuxedo** » 2003-12-11 03:42pm

SAMAS wrote:
SirNitram wrote:If you have a handheld pistol that can bring down large armoured targets, and you're still building the large, armoured targets, the system has very little thought behind it.
Well, the armor has grown alongside the weapons, of course. So shooting a Mega-damage pistol at a Mega-damage tank is only a little more effective than shooting a normal gun at a normal tank.

The sturdiest stuff I ever saw had 1 or 2 thousand MDC at most, and a particle cannon did 1d4 x 100 with a full clip burst in a round. There's something seriously wrong there IMO.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-12-11 05:02pm

SAMAS wrote:
SirNitram wrote:If you have a handheld pistol that can bring down large armoured targets, and you're still building the large, armoured targets, the system has very little thought behind it.
Well, the armor has grown alongside the weapons, of course. So shooting a Mega-damage pistol at a Mega-damage tank is only a little more effective than shooting a normal gun at a normal tank.

So this super-duper-uber-omgwow pistol has no use even in it's own universe, being ridiculous and absurd overkill for infantry and unable to harm tanks?

Wow, it's stupider than I thought.

Arthur_Tuxedo · Post by **Arthur_Tuxedo** » 2003-12-11 05:13pm

RIFTS for me is like D&D. Fun only when taken to an absurd level of power (godlings and dragon characters, etc.) so that the absurdities in the rules don't jump out at you as much. When a character that's SUPPOSED to be uber, surviving or being able to do ridiculous things seems a lot less stupid. I really enjoyed Rifts when my character was a dragon, and really didn't enjoy it when he was just a normal human.

Post by **weemadando** » 2003-12-11 05:54pm

SirNitram wrote:
SAMAS wrote:
SirNitram wrote:If you have a handheld pistol that can bring down large armoured targets, and you're still building the large, armoured targets, the system has very little thought behind it.
Well, the armor has grown alongside the weapons, of course. So shooting a Mega-damage pistol at a Mega-damage tank is only a little more effective than shooting a normal gun at a normal tank.
So this super-duper-uber-omgwow pistol has no use even in it's own universe, being ridiculous and absurd overkill for infantry and unable to harm tanks?

Wow, it's stupider than I thought.

Ahhhh, now you're seeing it how most people do. I know that the system is silly and overpowered, but again, like most systems you need a good GM to keep control of the game. Know the parties power levels, know the characters and run the campaign as such.

And see what I mean about Slartibartfast?

Slartibartfast · Post by **Slartibartfast** » 2003-12-11 07:44pm

Arthur_Tuxedo wrote:RIFTS for me is like D&D. Fun only when taken to an absurd level of power (godlings and dragon characters, etc.) so that the absurdities in the rules don't jump out at you as much.

I don't have a problem with the fun factor of the game (if there's any) - I have a problem with the intense stupidity and smugness of the author ("All the other RPG writers are wrong! 15 levels is the OPTIMAL amount and it resembles real life in every way!", "As everyone knows, you can dodge 3 missiles but FOUR are impossible, DUH", "It's completely absurd to think that a shot can hit a random body part, it obviously will either hit the part you intended or miss completely!") and it's atrocious and completely unprofessional layout and writing.

When a character that's SUPPOSED to be uber, surviving or being able to do ridiculous things seems a lot less stupid. I really enjoyed Rifts when my character was a dragon, and really didn't enjoy it when he was just a normal human.

Yes, the problem is that the game claims to be deeper than it actually is, and provides you with completely useless classes like *scout* or *city rat* and useless skills (when the idea is to be a gun-toting bastard who shoots all that moves, and doesn't remove his armor even to go to bed - who knows if there are MegaDamage fleas under the sheets)

Arthur_Tuxedo · Post by **Arthur_Tuxedo** » 2003-12-11 07:50pm

Slartibartfast wrote:I don't have a problem with the fun factor of the game (if there's any) - I have a problem with the intense stupidity and smugness of the author ("All the other RPG writers are wrong! 15 levels is the OPTIMAL amount and it resembles real life in every way!", "As everyone knows, you can dodge 3 missiles but FOUR are impossible, DUH", "It's completely absurd to think that a shot can hit a random body part, it obviously will either hit the part you intended or miss completely!") and it's atrocious and completely unprofessional layout and writing.

He was trying to be REALISTIC with that abortion of a system? That's just pathetic...

Yes, the problem is that the game claims to be deeper than it actually is, and provides you with completely useless classes like *scout* or *city rat* and useless skills (when the idea is to be a gun-toting bastard who shoots all that moves, and doesn't remove his armor even to go to bed - who knows if there are MegaDamage fleas under the sheets)

Tell me about it! I looked at my skill sheet and thought "hmm, will I ever use any of this bullshit? Nope!"

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-12-11 07:53pm

You know, the more I hear of RIFTS, the more I realize that yes, Aberrant is just about superior in every way. By comparison, the only noteworthy problem with Aberrant is overuse of the word Quantum.

Post by **weemadando** » 2003-12-11 07:57pm

Slartibartfast wrote:I don't have a problem with the fun factor of the game (if there's any) - I have a problem with the intense stupidity and smugness of the author ("All the other RPG writers are wrong! 15 levels is the OPTIMAL amount and it resembles real life in every way!", "As everyone knows, you can dodge 3 missiles but FOUR are impossible, DUH", "It's completely absurd to think that a shot can hit a random body part, it obviously will either hit the part you intended or miss completely!") and it's atrocious and completely unprofessional layout and writing.

Yes, the problem is that the game claims to be deeper than it actually is, and provides you with completely useless classes like *scout* or *city rat* and useless skills (when the idea is to be a gun-toting bastard who shoots all that moves, and doesn't remove his armor even to go to bed - who knows if there are MegaDamage fleas under the sheets)

It sounds to me like a case of bad GMing... If you're just on a run and gun game, then tell the GM to put down RIFTs and go and play Macho Women With Guns. In fact, if you look at the majority of role-playing systems they're all geared towards combat, but that doesn't mean that you HAVE TO HAVE A COMBAT FOCUSED GAME.

Hell, in the current DnD3rd Ed game I'm in we've had all of 10 rounds of real combat rolling in 3 sessions, which is amazingly low... Because despite the fact that DnD is a hack and slash system, we're playing a ROLE PLAYING GAME. Not a goddamn butcher everything that moves game.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-12-11 07:59pm

How can discussing the author of RIFTS' tone be put down to a GM problem, dare I ask?

Post by **weemadando** » 2003-12-11 08:12pm

SirNitram wrote:How can discussing the author of RIFTS' tone be put down to a GM problem, dare I ask?

Kevin Siembada is a dick. No two ways about it. But if you ignore his wanking in the introduction to each book, then the system isn't that bad.

As for stuff like "Oh dear, I better wear my armour to bed incase of MDC fleas", thats just like saying in regards to DnD or something: "Gee I better sleep with my +5 longsword of dragonslaying, just incase that bar-wench I picked up is a Dragon in human guise". Its stupid and taking a case to the extreme.

RIFTS isn't realistic. It has some qualities that aren't bad, but its not a true realistic system.

MDC/SDC differentiation was best described to me by a friend using the tennis ball analogy.

A tennis ball does 1 SDC. Modern body armour, has a 100SDC/1MDC. But no matter how many times you throw the tennis ball at the body armour, you're not going to degrade its effectiveness.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-12-11 08:14pm

DND Damage Reduction is good for that, as is Aberrant Soak and the Puny Human... optional rule.

Post by **weemadando** » 2003-12-11 08:18pm

SirNitram wrote:DND Damage Reduction is good for that, as is Aberrant Soak and the Puny Human... optional rule.

As is stuff like GM's discretion.

I have yet to found a roleplay system that my group plays straight out of the book without a SHITLOAD of GM's discretion stuff.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-12-11 08:21pm

weemadando wrote:
SirNitram wrote:DND Damage Reduction is good for that, as is Aberrant Soak and the Puny Human... optional rule.
As is stuff like GM's discretion.

I have yet to found a roleplay system that my group plays straight out of the book without a SHITLOAD of GM's discretion stuff.

Main reason I'm liking GURPS and World Of Aeon. They promote that stuff, the same way 3rd Ed is more focusing on providing ideas and ways to make things randomly.

Still, doesn't excuse a combination of a thoroughly badly thought out world with a stupid author. I'll stick to Aberrant, thanks. I'll be actually uber: Able to toss MBT's at my foes.

Post by **weemadando** » 2003-12-11 08:27pm

SirNitram wrote:
Main reason I'm liking GURPS and World Of Aeon. They promote that stuff, the same way 3rd Ed is more focusing on providing ideas and ways to make things randomly.

Still, doesn't excuse a combination of a thoroughly badly thought out world with a stupid author. I'll stick to Aberrant, thanks. I'll be actually uber: Able to toss MBT's at my foes.

Eh, I still like RIFTs because the GM in my group who runs it knows the system, the players and how to mix them properly.

Myself, I love Call of Cthulhu... 5.5ed, not that d20 shit. Now THATS a fantastic system.