Tie Defenders vs a borg tactical cube

[Alyrium Denryle]

The borg have never demonstrated an ability to target fighters as small as a TIE with any kind of accuracy.

Besides I have not seen every episode of trek either so I cant really back that up with complete confidence

[Mr Bean]

Anyway Defenders mount heavy weaponry, depending on the load out is the biggest thing, if they go in with the normal anti-capship load out, all they need to do is lob one and watch the fireworks

If normal Torps, Calc a mico-jump, drop in, full spread and the cube goes down(its mostly emptly space having 100 Megatons of Focus descruction go off would be nasty

And considering the holes we've heard described in EU one of the Defenders could bounce his way in and open up in that nice huge space with his cannons

[nightmare]

I've already twice mentioned a pretty generous estimate for the Defender's
maximum acceleration: 500 km/s/s. That's ten times the
acceleration rated for Kenobi's fighter by no less than Dr. Saxton himself.
And it still entails that the cube, horrible accuracy or not, has about
three minutes to fire at will before the fighters close to range.

-----

I'm curious of where you get this number. By comparing the speed of the Imperial fleet at Endor, and their MGLT rating you get 1 MGLT ~= 400 m2/s, (first calculated by Dr. Saxton, and I have checked it, yes.) which would put TIE/Ds at 8,4 km2/s at a bare minimum. It should be noted he assumes an ISD could make 75 MGLT since they can race with the MF, reated at that speed, although an ISD has never been stated to have that speed. The mostly used number is 60 MGLT (WEG, I think). By using the high end numbers we get:

ISD 10 MLGT, TID/D 200 MGLT, which ends up at 60 km2/s. It's awkward to use game stats for measurement, but it's the only thing we have to get the numbers on it as far as I know.

[nightmare]

Uhm. I made a total mess of my numbers.

My lame excuse it that it's really late for me.

It should be 62 km/s2 (75/155 MGLT) and 600 km/s2 (10/200) respectively.

[Darth Yoshi]

Aren't you people forgetting that in SW, it's possible to shoot down missiles in a fighter?

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

Defenders. They could rapidly close the distance between them and the cube. Cubes have HORRIBLE accuracy (BOBW)

With respects, Herr Moderator, that was a tractor beam that had bad
accuracy. As I recall, Borg torpedos usually hit their mark.

Also, you'll note that I was emphasizing the use of proximity-detonated
photonic missile hits--NOT direct hits (which I think would be gross
overkill anyway).

When do the Borg use torpedoes/missles and when do they show the tactical ability to think of using flak bursts? (their best tactics after 5 mounths against 8472 was charge at them playing their moronic "we are the borg" speech)

and only fire once at a time. Even if the Defenders only have missles a bit more powerful the Slave 1's, 12 with 96 200 megaton missles is 19.2 gigatons of pain. If they carried 1 gigaton missles, that's almost a hundread gigatons...

Which is worthless if they can't close to range fast enough. I don't dispute that their missiles could be very potent, though why they'd always carry
ordinance more powerful than Jango Fetts' inventory itself begs a convincing argument (I believe it, but I'm an equal opportunity ball-buster: just because we know the Empire is superior doesn't mean I'm going to go off the deep end a'la Spacebattles.)

I've already twice mentioned a pretty generous estimate for the Defender's
maximum acceleration: 500 km/s/s. That's ten times the
acceleration rated for Kenobi's fighter by no less than Dr. Saxton himself.
And it still entails that the cube, horrible accuracy or not, has about
three minutes to fire at will before the fighters close to range.

Not to sound overly dramatic, but that's an awful long time.

1. Kenobi's fighter seemed more of a gunship (kiloton level lasers)
2. You assume the Borg will be firing on the fighters. Every time we see the Borg, they close to <100 km before attacking.
3. Why can't the Defenders launch the torpedoes immediatly? They're faster then fighters, so will take less then 3 minutes. Granted, they'll run out of engine power at 30 seconds, but it'll keep on going. While in a normal battle this wouldn't work (target will move) Borg ships usually go in a straight line, particulary when the enemy is heading right at it.

[Mr Bean]

Why can't the Defenders launch the torpedoes immediatly? They're faster then fighters, so will take less then 3 minutes. Granted, they'll run out of engine power at 30 seconds, but it'll keep on going. While in a normal battle this wouldn't work (target will move) Borg ships usually go in a straight line, particulary when the enemy is heading right at it.

Also we have cannon evidance of Torps doing .95C... in Destays Way I belive

[Darth Yoshi]

Bean, if you meant Destiny's Way, it's out already?

[Mr Bean]

Bean, if you meant Destiny's Way, it's out already?

I belive so.. Not sure though, I remeber the context it was a missle pretending to be Jania's Fighter and forcing some Coral Skippers to Follow it and it said it was moving at Fighter speeds then JUMPED up to Missle speeds of .95 in less than a few seconds if I remeber corrently

[Admiral Patton]

This is an awesome argument and I complement your guys efforts. Some of you really know your stuff! Well, some of you, not all.

Gentlemen, this is one of the most ridiculous measurements of weaponry, in terms of strength.

A Proton Torpedo nor a Concussion Missile in Star Wars would not have the power to mount to the thousands nor high hundreds of megatons. And we must remember that a Proton Torpedo carries almost 2.5 times the punch (roughly) than the speedy Concussion Missile. Therefore concluding the Proton Torpedo carries a yield of roughly191 megatons (at 100% detonation accuracy) and the missile would be about 76.4 megatons (at 100% detonation accuracy). We must remember, that this is a large arsenal per capita/weapon. We have to realize this is over a thousand ‘Big Boy’ atomic bombs from World War II and a few hundred MX Missiles. And the Russian and United States Arsenals only measure to about 15 gigatons.
If that were the case, Star Wars ships would be of some unbelievable power, meaning the best design, best materials, and shielding strong enough to resist a single weapon with a yield better than that of 60-100 nuclear blast. And mind you, you are talking about one weapon. Shame shame. A Star Destroyer particularly can take hits from over 15 missiles and torpedoes, and that is making good hits. Hrm, that would mean those ships have enough power to ram things and survive, and we are talking about Imperial Star Destroyers, not Executors, Sovereigns, or Eclipses here. Your numbers are terribly off and your bashing of the Trek universe is shameful.

As once quoted "Only the truly righteous accept things they do not like or cannot change." So, from what I am getting is that sense the general population is anti-Trek. So you will bash it with Star Wars weaponry? Which I must add is in another universe and is in a time LONG before Star Trek. Grow up people.

If you want real numbers and real figures I can give them to you, not this made up garbage.

First off, in the beginning of the attack at 100,000km off, the TIEs are already within attacking range of a Borg ship. Also, their plasma torpedoes happen to have a range of over 400, 000 km (Although accuracy at that range is poor – but beyond that of Federation capabilities due to enhancements due to assimilated technology). That means the Borg would have initiated an attack long before 100,000 km, IF they figured the TIEs as a threat. And if this is the case, there is high potential a wing of ships could be eliminated before entering their own attack range.

Not only that, the Borg would find that the TIEs are not communicating on a modulated frequency and therefore consider them primative and initiate an attack just to get them to so they may be left alone. And, the long range sensors on a Cube have a range of 30 light years, therefore the Borg would be able to analyze the vessels quickly and efficiently before even knowing the Cube was present.

Also, the Defenders if I recall have a speed of up to 150-155 MGLT at normal power settings, therefore setting them to be about 120 - 124 kps. Therefore it would take them 13.88 ~ minutes @ 120 kps or 13.44 ~ minutes @ 124 kps. (My unit per second theory is based on info provided from a number of sources. But an MGLT roughly equals .8 km. This concluding that within the time it would take the TIEs about 6-7 minutes to get within close attacking range of the of the Cube. However, since the Borg have a much longer range, it is likely they would initiate their attack before that of the TIEs.

Concussion Missiles and Proton Torpedoes only have a straight line range of some maybe some 17680 km for the Concussion Missile @ 260 MGLT (208kps) for 85 seconds after a 5 second acceleration period (90 seconds is safely averaged run time for a missile on a straight line) and it would be a range of some 4000 km for the Proton Torpedo @ roughly 200 MGLT (160kps) for 25 seconds after a 5 second acceleration period. (NOTE – IN A VACCUM OBJECTS ARE CONSTANTLY AT AN ACCELERATED STATE).

This therefore displays that the TIEs would need still be out too far at 100,000 km to even launch their projectile weaponry. This therefore gives the Borg Cube over some 90,000 – 70,000+ km to maneuver in as well as begin its’ energy beam attacks (25,000+ km).

Therefore, I conclude that at 100,000 km the Borg would have the upper hand in the battle, if you wish me to conclude my analysis on the further development of the battle I will. Thank you, gentlemen.

And no, I am not biased, I love both universes, races, designs, and technology alike. But we have a lot to consider before we say who can kill who.

-Admiral Patton

[Ghost Rider]

Okay but one small flaw...

You're using TIE Fighter the game/Alliance info.

Seriously at that rate

1. ISD laser are no more effective than the lasers on the Falcon(which the movies has proven flawed)

2. The movie showed that concussion are somehow either similar or close yield possibly to Proton Torpedos(ie RoTJ) something game constantly denies.

3. If we mount the TIE Defenders with per Rockets vs Missle...a squad can bring down the Executor nearly(a full barrage nearly does that try it...it's sad)...something that once again canon defies.

Thus literally you are using non canonical evidence to say that the Defenders top sped is such and such(literally...it's the Alliance, X vs T and TIE Fighter game) to say the Borg would win.

Please try to at least stick with something resembling the movies before spewing that level of drivel.

[Vympel]

Hear hear. Learn the rules of canon before you use a computer game as 'evidence'. Games are the absolute worst sources you could possibly use. Stick to canon and official if you please.

[Connor MacLeod]

Why can't the Defenders launch the torpedoes immediatly? They're faster then fighters, so will take less then 3 minutes. Granted, they'll run out of engine power at 30 seconds, but it'll keep on going. While in a normal battle this wouldn't work (target will move) Borg ships usually go in a straight line, particulary when the enemy is heading right at it.

Also we have cannon evidance of Torps doing .95C... in Destays Way I belive

No, that was the Coralskippers. We don't know what the Falcon's concussion missiles traveled at, unless there is another part of teh book with relatavistic quotes I have not yet found (aside from Chapter 1)

[Connor MacLeod]

Bean, if you meant Destiny's Way, it's out already?

I belive so.. Not sure though, I remeber the context it was a missle pretending to be Jania's Fighter and forcing some Coral Skippers to Follow it and it said it was moving at Fighter speeds then JUMPED up to Missle speeds of .95 in less than a few seconds if I remeber corrently

That was Rebel Stand (the missile was acting as a "decoy" to trick the Vong pilots seeking to capture Jaina) and IIRC there was no stated speed.

[Connor MacLeod]

This is an awesome argument and I complement your guys efforts. Some of you really know your stuff! Well, some of you, not all.

Gentlemen, this is one of the most ridiculous measurements of weaponry, in terms of strength.

I take it you haven't seen AOTC then? IF not go look at Mike's AOTC analysis page. Its QUITE valid.

A Proton Torpedo nor a Concussion Missile in Star Wars would not have the power to mount to the thousands nor high hundreds of megatons.

You say this, yet you offer no proof as to why this should be so. Whereas we have plenty of proof to the contary.

And we must remember that a Proton Torpedo carries almost 2.5 times the punch (roughly) than the speedy Concussion Missile.

The Advanced variants perhaps (150 vs 60). Standard CM's are only 30 as opposed to the 100 for protorps. thats a factor of 3.3, as if it matters.

Of course, you're neglecting the fact that there are different yields, kinds, and types of proton torpedo.

Therefore concluding the Proton Torpedo carries a yield of roughly191 megatons (at 100% detonation accuracy) and the missile would be about 76.4 megatons (at 100% detonation accuracy).

WTF is "detonation accuracy? The missiles are focused warheads (as per the Trilogy ICS) - they are rated at 191 MT, and thats what they deliver.

We must remember, that this is a large arsenal per capita/weapon.

Proof?

We have to realize this is over a thousand ‘Big Boy’ atomic bombs from World War II and a few hundred MX Missiles. And the Russian and United States Arsenals only measure to about 15 gigatons

So? You're talking about a civilization that builds planet-destroying battlestations that eject the mass of said planet at relativistic speeds and starships that can render planets uninhabitable in minutes. Are you going to argue against those *other* figures because they're ridiculously higher than modern weapons?

If that were the case, Star Wars ships would be of some unbelievable power, meaning the best design, best materials, and shielding strong enough to resist a single weapon with a yield better than that of 60-100 nuclear blast.

And what lead you to believe they couldn't? You've made alot of claims but brought forth an astoundingly scarce amount of proof.

And mind you, you are talking about one weapon. Shame shame. A Star Destroyer particularly can take hits from over 15 missiles and torpedoes, and that is making good hits.

Funny. A Victory-class Star Destroyer takes at least a score of protorps before its shields drop in The Bacta War, and there is reason to believe that was a "lucky" occurance. Beyond that, it takes *eighty* capital scale concussion missiles in Isard's Revenge to knock down a Mon Cal Cruiser's shields (which are at least comparable to Imperial shields, due to their redundancy.) And of course, Shadows of the Empire indicates that a squadron of X-wings (armed with lasers and proton torpedoes) could do little harm to an ISD (12 X-wings carry around 72 torpedoes total.. 24 per salvo).

I would *really* love to hear your source on the 15 missiles and torpedoes.

Hrm, that would mean those ships have enough power to ram things and survive, and we are talking about Imperial Star Destroyers, not Executors, Sovereigns, or Eclipses here. Your numbers are terribly off and your bashing of the Trek universe is shameful.

Your lack of proof and your unsubstnatiated claims are shameful. You have provided *minimal* proof to back up your claims, and what proof you did cite is unsubstantiated and shaky, at best. Don't go lecturing us about OUR flaws.

As once quoted "Only the truly righteous accept things they do not like or cannot change." So, from what I am getting is that sense the general population is anti-Trek. So you will bash it with Star Wars weaponry? Which I must add is in another universe and is in a time LONG before Star Trek. Grow up people.

Yak yak yak yak... Get off your high horse. Your post is nothign but a bunch of unsubstantiated claims and speculation. You hardly have a solid case here, and your arrogant self superior attitude is beyond grating.

If you want real numbers and real figures I can give them to you, not this made up garbage.

So can I. The Ep2 ICS.

But I'd *love* to hear your so called "real" figures. Just remember to back them up, otherwise dont bother wasting my time.

First off, in the beginning of the attack at 100,000km off, the TIEs are already within attacking range of a Borg ship.

Proof?

Also, their plasma torpedoes happen to have a range of over 400, 000 km (Although accuracy at that range is poor – but beyond that of Federation capabilities due to enhancements due to assimilated technology).

Proof?

That means the Borg would have initiated an attack long before 100,000 km, IF they figured the TIEs as a threat. And if this is the case, there is high potential a wing of ships could be eliminated before entering their own attack range.

If we ignore the hyperdrive.

Not only that, the Borg would find that the TIEs are not communicating on a modulated frequency and therefore consider them primative and initiate an attack just to get them to so they may be left alone.

You have proof of this, or just making more unsubstantiated and unimaginative claims?

And, the long range sensors on a Cube have a range of 30 light years, therefore the Borg would be able to analyze the vessels quickly and efficiently before even knowing the Cube was present.

Proof?

Also, the Defenders if I recall have a speed of up to 150-155 MGLT at normal power settings, therefore setting them to be about 120 - 124 kps.

Proof?

Therefore it would take them 13.88 ~ minutes @ 120 kps or 13.44 ~ minutes @ 124 kps. (My unit per second theory is based on info provided from a number of sources. But an MGLT roughly equals .8 km. This concluding that within the time it would take the TIEs about 6-7 minutes to get within close attacking range of the of the Cube. However, since the Borg have a much longer range, it is likely they would initiate their attack before that of the TIEs.

Even if we accept your silly speed limits (even though its ACCELERATION that matters in space, and not speed), you're of course ignoring the hyperdrive.

This also assumes the Borg will have any degree of accuracy against the TIEs to begin with.

Concussion Missiles and Proton Torpedoes only have a straight line range of some maybe some 17680 km for the Concussion Missile @ 260 MGLT (208kps) for 85 seconds after a 5 second acceleration period (90 seconds is safely averaged run time for a missile on a straight line) and it would be a range of some 4000 km for the Proton Torpedo @ roughly 200 MGLT (160kps) for 25 seconds after a 5 second acceleration period. (NOTE – IN A VACCUM OBJECTS ARE CONSTANTLY AT AN ACCELERATED STATE).

Proof?

This therefore displays that the TIEs would need still be out too far at 100,000 km to even launch their projectile weaponry. This therefore gives the Borg Cube over some 90,000 – 70,000+ km to maneuver in as well as begin its’ energy beam attacks (25,000+ km).

Again, ignoring hyperdrive, the fact you haven't provided much in the way of evidence, and your overblown egotism in assuming we'd be dumb enough to let you get away with this.

Therefore, I conclude that at 100,000 km the Borg would have the upper hand in the battle, if you wish me to conclude my analysis on the further development of the battle I will. Thank you, gentlemen.

So basically you spouted off alot of nonsensical opinions with no real backing and consider that a conclusion? Have you ever taken a course in debate or logic?

And no, I am not biased, I love both universes, races, designs, and technology alike. But we have a lot to consider before we say who can kill who.

-Admiral Patton

Yeah yeah yeah.. like you're teh first one to ever try to claim impartiality on this. Tell you what. Try actually making a REAL Argument and then we'll talk.

[Connor MacLeod]

Hear hear. Learn the rules of canon before you use a computer game as 'evidence'. Games are the absolute worst sources you could possibly use. Stick to canon and official if you please.

You have evidence I presume to back up this claim that the computer games are lower on the evidence hierarchy than other official sources? Last time I checked all EU sources were pretty much equal, unless they were explicitly said otherwise (like Infinities).

[Eleas]

This is an awesome argument and I complement your guys efforts. Some of you really know your stuff! Well, some of you, not all.

Gentlemen, this is one of the most ridiculous measurements of weaponry, in terms of strength.

A Proton Torpedo nor a Concussion Missile in Star Wars would not have the power to mount to the thousands nor high hundreds of megatons. And we must remember that a Proton Torpedo carries almost 2.5 times the punch (roughly) than the speedy Concussion Missile. Therefore concluding the Proton Torpedo carries a yield of roughly191 megatons (at 100% detonation accuracy) and the missile would be about 76.4 megatons (at 100% detonation accuracy).

That would be the efficiency. Merely nitpicking, but it helps keep the concepts straight. Also, the effective max yield of the weaponry is at 191 megatons, meaning its payload would have to be larger still. Thus, the 100% efficiency statement is incorrect.

We must remember, that this is a large arsenal per capita/weapon. We have to realize this is over a thousand ‘Big Boy’ atomic bombs from World War II and a few hundred MX Missiles. And the Russian and United States Arsenals only measure to about 15 gigatons.

Indeed, the fact that a galactic civilisation can field weapons beyond our own should come as no surprise.

If that were the case, Star Wars ships would be of some unbelievable power, meaning the best design, best materials, and shielding strong enough to resist a single weapon with a yield better than that of 60-100 nuclear blast. And mind you, you are talking about one weapon. Shame shame.

Are you saying that since we can't make such weapons today, they can't exist?

A Star Destroyer particularly can take hits from over 15 missiles and torpedoes, and that is making good hits. Hrm, that would mean those ships have enough power to ram things and survive, and we are talking about Imperial Star Destroyers, not Executors, Sovereigns, or Eclipses here. Your numbers are terribly off and your bashing of the Trek universe is shameful.

Let's see... Star Destroyers can take hits from a huge number of missiles and torpedoes, and survive. Star Destroyers do ram smaller ships at great speed and survive, though the problem with deflector moorings makes it difficult to withstand too powerful physical impacts.

So I think I understand what you're saying: You can't find any flaw in our numbers beyond wailing about it being unfair because we can't understand said technology today. Check.

As once quoted "Only the truly righteous accept things they do not like or cannot change." So, from what I am getting is that sense the general population is anti-Trek.

No, just on this board. But we still have a lot of moderates, people willing to accept opposing viewpoints and arguments if intelligently formulated. And that's the problem with your argument. It's not hermetic.

So you will bash it with Star Wars weaponry? Which I must add is in another universe and is in a time LONG before Star Trek. Grow up people.

This debate is about the Star Trek universe meeting the Star Wars universe. If you don't want to play, then you are free to leave. But choosing to stay just to bash the premise of the debate is childish.

If you want real numbers and real figures I can give them to you, not this made up garbage.

We've carefully calculated our numbers. As we shall see below, you haven't.

First off, in the beginning of the attack at 100,000km off, the TIEs are already within attacking range of a Borg ship.

Where's your proof? No proof = concession of defeat.

Also, their plasma torpedoes happen to have a range of over 400, 000 km (Although accuracy at that range is poor – but beyond that of Federation capabilities due to enhancements due to assimilated technology).

Where's your proof? No proof = concession of defeat.

That means the Borg would have initiated an attack long before 100,000 km, IF they figured the TIEs as a threat. And if this is the case, there is high potential a wing of ships could be eliminated before entering their own attack range.

Where's your proof? No proof = concession of defeat.

Not only that, the Borg would find that the TIEs are not communicating on a modulated frequency and therefore consider them primative and initiate an attack just to get them to so they may be left alone.

Where's your proof of non-modulated frequency, and of it being "primitive"? No proof = concession of defeat.

And, the long range sensors on a Cube have a range of 30 light years, therefore the Borg would be able to analyze the vessels quickly and efficiently before even knowing the Cube was present.

Where's your proof of sensor range? No proof = concession of defeat.

Also, the Defenders if I recall have a speed of up to 150-155 MGLT at normal power settings, therefore setting them to be about 120 - 124 kps.

The games aren't canon, and are in fact overridden by canon. Furthermore, the MGLT rating isn't stated to be 0.8 kps anywhere but in your mind.

Therefore it would take them 13.88 ~ minutes @ 120 kps or 13.44 ~ minutes @ 124 kps. (My unit per second theory is based on info provided from a number of sources. But an MGLT roughly equals .8 km.

Sources that you don't name, and that are probably neither canon nor official.

This concluding that within the time it would take the TIEs about 6-7 minutes to get within close attacking range of the of the Cube. However, since the Borg have a much longer range, it is likely they would initiate their attack before that of the TIEs.

Where's your proof of Borg range? No proof = concession of defeat.

Concussion Missiles and Proton Torpedoes only have a straight line range of some maybe some 17680 km for the Concussion Missile @ 260 MGLT (208kps) for 85 seconds after a 5 second acceleration period (90 seconds is safely averaged run time for a missile on a straight line) and it would be a range of some 4000 km for the Proton Torpedo @ roughly 200 MGLT (160kps) for 25 seconds after a 5 second acceleration period.

Let's have some evidence for these made-up fantasies of yours, shall we?

(NOTE – IN A VACCUM OBJECTS ARE CONSTANTLY AT AN ACCELERATED STATE).

No. In a vacuum, there is no friction from air. An object will still not constantly accelerate unless force is applied.

This therefore displays that the TIEs would need still be out too far at 100,000 km to even launch their projectile weaponry.

It merely proves that you cannot understand how to give evidence.

This therefore gives the Borg Cube over some 90,000 – 70,000+ km to maneuver in as well as begin its’ energy beam attacks (25,000+ km).

They seem to maneuver reluctantly if at all in battle, and their beams are only used within ranges of 100 km (to be generous).

Therefore, I conclude that at 100,000 km the Borg would have the upper hand in the battle, if you wish me to conclude my analysis on the further development of the battle I will. Thank you, gentlemen.

Thank you. I recommend you read up on the debate a bit more. Here are some good sites:

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire
http://www.theforce.net/swtc
http://users.iafrica.com/x/xr/xris/index.htm

And no, I am not biased, I love both universes, races, designs, and technology alike. But we have a lot to consider before we say who can kill who.

Perhaps. However, you've failed to raise any of these concerns, and your arguments have been defeated on at least twelve different occasions before.

[Vympel]

Hear hear. Learn the rules of canon before you use a computer game as 'evidence'. Games are the absolute worst sources you could possibly use. Stick to canon and official if you please.

You have evidence I presume to back up this claim that the computer games are lower on the evidence hierarchy than other official sources? Last time I checked all EU sources were pretty much equal, unless they were explicitly said otherwise (like Infinities).

Games are apocrypha. They are useless except as history- and even then that's shaky: look at X-Wing. I thought Luke Skywalker destroyed the Death Star?. They are contradicted by the films (how fast a Star Destroyer can go, for example, not to mention weapons complement, and obvious scale errors) and other sources repeatedly. If you think I'm going to sit there and listen to some idiot parrot stats from TIE Fighter as to how fast a TIE Interceptor moves and how many proton torpedoes it takes to destroy a Star Destroyer, you're off your nut! I, and everyone else in their right mind in these debates, refuse to sit down and debase myself by rationalizing the bullshit that comes from these games- which are terribly skewed in order to "ingratiate ourselves as fighter pilots".

[Ender]

This is an awesome argument and I complement your guys efforts. Some of you really know your stuff! Well, some of you, not all.

You claim we don't know are stuff, then go on to make a slew of mistakes.

Gentlemen, this is one of the most ridiculous measurements of weaponry, in terms of strength.

A Proton Torpedo nor a Concussion Missile in Star Wars would not have the power to mount to the thousands nor high hundreds of megatons. And we must remember that a Proton Torpedo carries almost 2.5 times the punch (roughly) than the speedy Concussion Missile. Therefore concluding the Proton Torpedo carries a yield of roughly191 megatons (at 100% detonation accuracy) and the missile would be about 76.4 megatons (at 100% detonation accuracy).

Except the 191 MT refers to a concussion missile, not a Proton Torp. Proton torps, carries by the Tie Defenders, would be about 478 MT.

We must remember, that this is a large arsenal per capita/weapon. We have to realize this is over a thousand &#8216;Big Boy&#8217; atomic bombs from World War II and a few hundred MX Missiles. And the Russian and United States Arsenals only measure to about 15 gigatons.

Relevent, how?

If that were the case, Star Wars ships would be of some unbelievable power, meaning the best design, best materials, and shielding strong enough to resist a single weapon with a yield better than that of 60-100 nuclear blast. And mind you, you are talking about one weapon. Shame shame.

Yes, they would have to be that powerful. And clearly they are. The only thing here that is shameful is your counterargument.

A Star Destroyer particularly can take hits from over 15 missiles and torpedoes, and that is making good hits. Hrm, that would mean those ships have enough power to ram things and survive, and we are talking about Imperial Star Destroyers, not Executors, Sovereigns, or Eclipses here.

No, it takes atleast 24 Cap-killer grade torpedoes (measured in the low hundreds of GT) focused on a single spot of bring down the shields of an ISD and many more to actually kill it.

Your numbers are terribly off and your bashing of the Trek universe is shameful.

Your numbers are terribly off and your ignorance is shameful. You claim we don't know what we are talking about when you are so wrong it hurts.

As once quoted "Only the truly righteous accept things they do not like or cannot change." So, from what I am getting is that sense the general population is anti-Trek. So you will bash it with Star Wars weaponry? Which I must add is in another universe and is in a time LONG before Star Trek. Grow up people.

Irrelevent, and indicative of your intention to troll here. People who have nothing better to do but comne here and insult people are the ones who need to grow up.

If you want real numbers and real figures I can give them to you, not this made up garbage.

Ours have backing, yours are based on error

First off, in the beginning of the attack at 100,000km off, the TIEs are already within attacking range of a Borg ship. Also, their plasma torpedoes happen to have a range of over 400, 000 km (Although accuracy at that range is poor &#8211; but beyond that of Federation capabilities due to enhancements due to assimilated technology). That means the Borg would have initiated an attack long before 100,000 km, IF they figured the TIEs as a threat. And if this is the case, there is high potential a wing of ships could be eliminated before entering their own attack range.

You admit accuracy is poor, and that is against large ships with poor manuverability and speed. I question the ability of the Borg to even come close to hitting a defender, expecially considering that they use ECM, something no race in Trek does.

Not only that, the Borg would find that the TIEs are not communicating on a modulated frequency and therefore consider them primative and initiate an attack just to get them to so they may be left alone. And, the long range sensors on a Cube have a range of 30 light years, therefore the Borg would be able to analyze the vessels quickly and efficiently before even knowing the Cube was present.

Dismissing a starfighter more advanced then their whole cube as primitive wouold doom them. While you have a nice range for cube sensors, I would like to know how they would be able to analyize technology so advanced and so foreign to them that quickly. And I love how you put a totally arbitraty range limit on Defender sensors, saying they would not even know the cube was there from 10,000 KM

Also, the Defenders if I recall have a speed of up to 150-155 MGLT at normal power settings, therefore setting them to be about 120 - 124 kps. Therefore it would take them 13.88 ~ minutes @ 120 kps or 13.44 ~ minutes @ 124 kps. (My unit per second theory is based on info provided from a number of sources. But an MGLT roughly equals .8 km.

The errors here are two fold:
1) You are using game mechanics, a non canon source to try to determine a conversion factor which we cannot determine.
2) Higher sources then the games overrule them with a far higher speed.

This concluding that within the time it would take the TIEs about 6-7 minutes to get within close attacking range of the of the Cube. However, since the Borg have a much longer range, it is likely they would initiate their attack before that of the TIEs.

Your position is based upon errors and upon the pre-emptive conclusion the borg would not have extreme difficulty targeting the TIEs

Concussion Missiles and Proton Torpedoes only have a straight line range of some maybe some 17680 km for the Concussion Missile @ 260 MGLT (208kps) for 85 seconds after a 5 second acceleration period (90 seconds is safely averaged run time for a missile on a straight line) and it would be a range of some 4000 km for the Proton Torpedo @ roughly 200 MGLT (160kps) for 25 seconds after a 5 second acceleration period. (NOTE &#8211; IN A VACCUM OBJECTS ARE CONSTANTLY AT AN ACCELERATED STATE).

Again, you are using game mechanics to try to determine limits. And the Torp used in Rebel Stand contradicts this as it flew at max acceleration for several minutes along a highly varied course.

This therefore displays that the TIEs would need still be out too far at 100,000 km to even launch their projectile weaponry. This therefore gives the Borg Cube over some 90,000 &#8211; 70,000+ km to maneuver in as well as begin its&#8217; energy beam attacks (25,000+ km).

Conclusions based upon errors are invalid

[/quote]
Therefore, I conclude that at 100,000 km the Borg would have the upper hand in the battle, if you wish me to conclude my analysis on the further development of the battle I will. Thank you, gentlemen.[/quote]
If you can do it based on canon or official facts, I would enjoy a revised analysis. But don't bother posting more shit based on denial of established weapons power, arbitrary limits, and non-official/non-canon speculation

And no, I am not biased, I love both universes, races, designs, and technology alike. But we have a lot to consider before we say who can kill who.

Yes, like their stated capabilities instead of what you want them to be.

[seanrobertson]

Sean: do we know the range at which Borg weapons could target small craft (hopefully something as small as the Defender?) Do we have any ideas of approximate accuracy in this regard? Have they intercepted missiles/torpedoes or warhead-like projectiles before? (I also don't suppse we know can guess at the accelerations involved in all of the above... thats going to be important)

Additionally, do we have any knowledge of Borg EW capabilities, and how good they are relative to otehr combatants?

Also, don't forget the hyperdrive. The TIE-D's could microjump a few light minutes away then microjump back in close up (depending on how far away they are.. sensor ranges for the Millenium Falcon, and Jaina's fighter in Destiny's Way, are around 2 Light minutes and 8 light minutes respectively, and neither is neccesarily an upper limit)

I am honored (small Spock bow)

To my knowledge, the smallest craft the Borg have
successfully targetted include the following:

1--Delta Flyer at unknown distance--probably between
1-10 km. (?).

The script is as follows:

KIM: "Our forward shields are down!"
CHAKOTAY: "The Flyer?"
PARIS: "They're closing, 50 kilometers."
CHAKOTAY: "Maintain fire."

(VGR is struck)

PARIS: "30 kilometers, twenty..."


The cube then fires four greenish spheres at the Flyer,
all of which connect.

Comments: this is at extreme close range, but given the
timing inherent to Paris' dialogue, the Flyer was
moving at a relative velocity of about 10 km/s, albeit in a
straight line. The torpedos themselves overcame the DF
rather easily, suggesting an acceleration on the order of 5x
the Flyer's if not a bit more.

2--Federation "tactical probes" at the Mars Perimeter
defense, no more than 10 km away (and moving in a
straight line no less). All three were destroyed with direct hits
from what appeared to be disruptor bolts;

3--Federation shuttlecraft on at least two occassions,
including Data and Worf's pod in "BOBW," as it slowly
accelerated away from the cube again in a straight line
at no more than few hundred meters/sec. Range: ~5 km.
It, too, was destroyed with a direct hit...by a Borg cutting laser,
no less. (Trek's prodigal son episode itself shoots down the
"nav deflectors are immune to lasers" argument .)

So, basically, we have several instances in which craft roughly
comparable in size to TIEs have been destroyed with direct hits,
but they're all at very close range, all of the shuttles were
moving directly toward the cubes, and all but one involve rather
meager relative velocities. (The cube approaching the Mars
defense "probes" was actually moving at least as fast as the
probes it shot down.) Therefore, to conclude anything positive
for the cube based solely on direct observation is...tough. I
daresay, impossible.

All other depictions of combat with Borg ships shows small fleets,
like the one at Wolf 359, harrassing a cube at a few kilometers to
perhaps 10-20 km. It's worth noting that at those ranges, the cube's dedicated *weapons* rarely miss their mark, though we are dealing with targets some 150-250m wide or more as a rule. (I make this distinction because tractor beams sometimes do completely miss their targets,
just as the cube tried to grab the E-D and missed badly at one point.) Some of the aforementioned targets demonstrated impressive acceleration, particularly in the FX shots from Sisko's "flashback" in the DS9 premiere. However, they did not attempt any noteworthy evasive tactics and, indeed, most of the ships seemed to fly straight *toward* the cube. Same story with "First Contact."

That covers target sizes and rough linear accelerations, but as I said,
that's all extreme close-range combat. I hesitate to conclude that
the Borg are limited to such ranges, though, especially given their odd
combat ethos (taking time to assimilate people from the Wolf system,
apparently during or shortly after fighting the fleet itself). It might be
the case that they wouldn't perceive the TIE squadron as a threat
*until* they closed to PBR. And what they perceive as a potential threat,
they usually try to assimilate, further implying that they would probably
allow the squadron to close to within several dozen kilometers (if not
less) before making said determination.

The fact that we're dealing with a tactical cube complicates things somewhat...the drones onboard those things are easily capable of
assimilating people, but we've never observed a tactical cube try to
do anything *but* blast its opponents with disruptors, torpedos,
and perhaps something similar to the Jem'Hadar's phased polaron
weapons. As such, this ship might or might *not* wait for the TIEs
to get close...assimilation not being high on their list of priorities,
ranged attacks are a possibility.

That possibility requires that we investigate ranges involved in
other, presumably lesser ships. Off the top of my head, I have
three examples involving weapons similar to those used by the
tactical cube's: photon torpedos (photonic missiles), Klingon
disruptors (Borg disr.), and Jem'Hadar polaron weapons (possible
Borg equivalent--FX had been recycled from DS9). BUT, I must
operate under the arguable assumption that the Borg can match
these ranges and accuracy. Given their vastly superior technology,
I think that's not too detestable of an assumption, but someone
might know why it's not cogent.

Anyway:

Borg torpedo
Range: extrapolating from the USS Phoenix's ability to hit a Cardassian warship with photorps at approx. 300,000 km
("The Wounded"), cubes should be able to obtain target locks at
similar ranges.

Accuracy: The weapons in "The Wounded" scored at least two direct
hits. This is not observed, but is necessary given the likely target, for
reasons I'll expound upon later if need be.

It's likely that the warship in question was Galor-class, some 480m long, ~240m wide, and 100m tall. (The DS9 TM's measurements are smaller, but they're inconsistent with FX for the most part. Besides, this will
help lend some measure of credibility to what I'm saying .) Such
a ship, even with bubble shields, should have a profile of no more
than 50,000 m^2.

With further extrapolation of Borg targetting ability from this example, we can say that a cube could score direct hits on a target area of 50,000 square meters. That's not necessarily an upper-limit, but it could be, given that Phoenix herself might've *missed* the Cardassian warship with a photorp or two. It also depends on how much interstellar targetting
abilities are alike, of course.

I need to run, but I'll be back for more later!

[seanrobertson]

When do the Borg use torpedoes/missles and when do they show the tactical ability to think of using flak bursts? (their best tactics after 5 mounths against 8472 was charge at them playing their moronic "we are the borg" speech)

They use missiles or torpedoes on these occassions, to my knowledge:

1--"Dark Frontier." The Queen's diamondship fires torpedoes
at Delta Flyer.
2--"U Zero." The tactical cube fires projectiles at the same ship,
and at VGR in pt. II.
3--"Endgame." 3 of the cubes attacking armored VGR fire torpedoes.
4--The cube that rescued VGR from 8472 fired three torpedoes at
a bioship, rotated, fired three more, and so on.

Insofar as proximity detonations are concerned, the magnometric
guided charges in "BOBW," essentially depth charges, were
fired at the Enterprise-D in "Best of Both Worlds," some detonating nearby, and at least one other scoring a near hit (which did damage to their shields IIRC). Later, similar weapons were used when cubes had to "fire blind" against a technobabble-"cloaked" Delta Flyer in "Dark Frontier."

We've seen other proximity-detonation photorps before, as well,
though it's arguable that the Borg wouldn't think of using them or
wouldn't need to; e.g., VGR's type ten torpedo blast in "Scorpion II"
or VGR detonating an ejected antimatter pod against the bodypart
grafting aliens in "?"

However, it's worth noting that simply because we haven't seen
the Borg use such tactics often doesn't mean they simply aren't
capable of as much...we haven't, after all, ever seen them engage
anything as fast or maneuverable as TIE Defenders. Given that
it might be the only way they *could* hit them, and they have
demonstrated the ability to detonate projectiles short of the target
itself, I think it's reasonable to think they might at least *try* to
do this against the TIEs. I think it's only fair that the cube try to defend itself when it still has a chance for survival...when those fighters get in
close, the cube's chances of scoring hits is going to go down abysmally.

1. Kenobi's fighter seemed more of a gunship (kiloton level lasers)
2. You assume the Borg will be firing on the fighters. Every time we see the Borg, they close to <100 km before attacking.

Or, to play with the semantics involved, their *attackers* close to that
range, presumably so they'd only have to face a single axis of the cube
at once.

You do have a point, though...it's entirely possible the cube wouldn't
regard the TIEs as a threat until they were right on top of them. It's
hard to say for sure...but for them to not use weapons capable of
ranged attacks just because they're stupid seems a bit unfair to me,
not unlike assuming the TIEs couldn't launch their missiles at
range as well.

3. Why can't the Defenders launch the torpedoes immediatly? They're faster then fighters, so will take less then 3 minutes. Granted, they'll run out of engine power at 30 seconds, but it'll keep on going. While in a normal battle this wouldn't work (target will move) Borg ships usually go in a straight line, particulary when the enemy is heading right at it.

Also a valid point. A short burst from a tractor beam could potentially
stop the torpedoes from scoring direct hits, even if the cube does
remain relatively stationary. When they're out of engine power, they
wouldn't be able to maneuver away from the tractor beams.

I should certainly pt. out there actually is no Borg precedent for this.
The closest thing I can think of is when Worf used Defiant's
tractor beam to reduce a Vor'cha's disruptor effectiveness
in "Way of the Warrior." The principle is essentially the same, but
whether or not the Borg would try it is certainly debatable...even I
have to admit that their MO is to just let torpedos slam into them.
Of course, here again we're in unfamiliar territory: no known Borg
opponent has tried to launch missiles at them from BVR. We don't
know what the Borg might try to do when faced with such a possibility,
if anything. Probably nothing, but then again, do fighters routinely
launch their missiles at such ranges? Unless these things are monstrously powerful, they'd still probably want to use their superior accuracy to
hit unarmored areas on the cube (and hence, get a little closer).

[seanrobertson]

Additionally, do we have any knowledge of Borg EW capabilities, and how good they are relative to otehr combatants?

Also, don't forget the hyperdrive. The TIE-D's could microjump a few light minutes away then microjump back in close up (depending on how far away they are.. sensor ranges for the Millenium Falcon, and Jaina's fighter in Destiny's Way, are around 2 Light minutes and 8 light minutes respectively, and neither is neccesarily an upper limit)

I didn't address this in my last post--sorry man!

The only knowledge I have of Borg electronic warfare is something maybe
intimated in "Best of Both Worlds." Data and Worf mention something
about the cube's "electromagnetic field," something also alluded to
in "Q Who?" IIRC. It could've just as easily been a kind of shield...
it's vaguely possible that it interfered with a shuttlecraft's ability to fly close to the cube fully powered (they had to drift in, perhaps so as not to get
the cube's attention), but it didn't impair transporter function. Therefore,
their EM field shouldn't be a problem, and one must make assumptions
as to whether or not the tactical cubes even operate such fields. (Evidently not.)

Microjumps could change everything. These are observed, whereas
a comparable move on the cube's part isn't to my knowledge.

[Connor MacLeod]

Hear hear. Learn the rules of canon before you use a computer game as 'evidence'. Games are the absolute worst sources you could possibly use. Stick to canon and official if you please.

You have evidence I presume to back up this claim that the computer games are lower on the evidence hierarchy than other official sources? Last time I checked all EU sources were pretty much equal, unless they were explicitly said otherwise (like Infinities).

Games are apocrypha. They are useless except as history- and even then that's shaky: look at X-Wing. I thought Luke Skywalker destroyed the Death Star?. They are contradicted by the films (how fast a Star Destroyer can go, for example, not to mention weapons complement, and obvious scale errors) and other sources repeatedly. If you think I'm going to sit there and listen to some idiot parrot stats from TIE Fighter as to how fast a TIE Interceptor moves and how many proton torpedoes it takes to destroy a Star Destroyer, you're off your nut! I, and everyone else in their right mind in these debates, refuse to sit down and debase myself by rationalizing the bullshit that comes from these games- which are terribly
skewed in order to "ingratiate ourselves as fighter pilots".

In other words, the answer to my question is "no, you have no proof, and you think games should be rated lower because you think they should." How stupid of me, of course that makes PERFECT sense. How could I have ever doubted your claim?

[seanrobertson]

Lets clear some things up...

1.) acceleration wise, I'd put the TIE Defender at least capable of pulling 7500 gees absolute minimum, with 25,000 gee's probably around the highest known upper limit ATM.. average, I believe 10,000-12,000 gee's is probably accurate, since its meant to be one of the most advanced and most powerful fighters out there.

That's pretty reasonable, IMO.

2.) It mounts hyperdrive. Depending on the "battlefield" and the degree of gravity wells present, microjumping can be used to execute strafing attacks with missile loads (or to at least rapidly cover the distances.)

Yeah...that's a potential FUBARed cube, right there, depending on the
missile's yield (and, of course, how powerful the cube's shields might
be).

3.) lasers - forget that MT range laser crap, I find it hard to believe that between AOTC and the "modern" classic Trilogy they made an orders of magnitude improvement in fighter weaponry. Just because the acclamator's guns are 6 MT does not mean that fighter scale lasers will be (remember that there are CAPITAL scale lasers as well as starfighter scale.. just as there are starfighter scale TLs and starfighter scale lasers). Perhaps starfighter scale turbolasers could be MT range, but then they would also probably obey other TL rules (slower rate of fire, etc.) In any case, I doubt the TIE defender moutns a starfighter-scale turbolaser anyhow.

Agreed.

As for the shielding estimates, I consdier Sean's to be rather reasonable. AT MOST maybe a megaton of shielding at full output. I suspect its less shields and more EW that will help the defender in this instance.

I tend to think so, too...I've never known TIEs, even shielded models,
to rely very heavily on taking hits of that magnitude.

4.) Concussion missiles. Forget the ones that Slave-1 mounts. They're far too large to be mounted on the TIE defender (for one thing, they're a meter long.. I don't recall anyplace where they could mount those.) They'd have to be externally racked to be carried.

Odds are, I'd bet on using proton torpedoes more. Fighter-scale protorps have about the same damage potential as the missiles the slave-1 mounts (if we assuem they're comparable to the Falcon, which is not unreasonable since they are of similar size and shaping). While its true the torpedoes are a lot slower acceleration wise, they still pack megaton-range firepower (191 megatons, in this case).

Now, range is the kicker. Now, its quite possible the TIE Defenders could launch missiles from beyond weapons range - at the minimum they must have accelerative capabilities that match the defender (or the Defender would overshoot its own ordnance) and its probably safe to say they'd be at least 25-50% faster, if not more. Mike Wong has estimated around 70,000 gee accelerations for protorps, which is quite good. Regardless, we get an accel rate of tens of thousands of gees in most parts.

If we use the low end (12,500 gees based on my above assumptions), the missile should be capable of accelerating at 122.5 km/s^2. Most protorps have an "active flight time" of around 30-60 seconds (while this may seem strange, it should be noted that SOME SW missiles have active flight times of up to ten minutes, and are the same size as the meter long Slave-1 missiles!) We'll stick with 30 seconds.

If the missile accelerates for say, five seconds, leaving 25 seconds worth of flight time for manuvers, its traveling at over 612 Km/s.. if it does this for say, the full 25 seconds, we're talking around 15,000 km for the missile (minus the distance it covered while accelerating. Of coures, the range can increase the faster the missile goes, but this not onyl decreases the time the missile has for manuvers, it makes it much harder to manuver (inertia).
And of course, lower speeds and longer ranges/times give the Borg greater chance to evade/intercept the missile, but we're talking about a projectile about the size of a human head at most, and if its not actively emitting (IE accelerating) it might be hard to track them. I don't know about Borg point defense capabilities, either.

Sounds good. The Borg have never been observed to destroy something
of that size, let alone moving at that rate, though they do have the
technology onboard to potentially stop the missiles before impact.
It's mostly a question of whether or not they'll use them. If this is
"how things should be," I'd say absolutely yes. As it is, we don't have
a relevant comparative context, so I'd probably vote "no."

The real problem of course is how far away the TIE needs to be. (snippage)

Hell, even in ANH the rebels were able to acquire the exhaust port many tens of km out, under heavy jamming from the Death Star - and their equipment is LESS effective than the Empire's - but not significantly so.

To be safe, I'd consider it not unreasonble for the Defenders to acquire missile lock around the thousands-tens of thousands km range.. with possibly hundreds of thousands if Borg EW capabilities are particularily bad/nonexistant. Sean, I'll have to rely on you to provide that info

I'd say they're pretty bad. I mentioned their electromagnetic field
above, which didn't even interfere with transporter function. It *might've*
interfered with the shuttle's navigation systems but I kind of doubt that.

The other relevant point as I mentioned, is Borg point defense. Do we know how well they'll handle 7 meter-long targets (much less the head-sized protorps) capable of tens of thousands of gees of acceleration? That if anything will probably determine the surviviability of the TIEs rather than shields. That and EW capabilities (more Stealth and masking than outright jamming, I think)

If the TIEs' don't slow to attack speed, they should be pretty safe from
ever taking a direct hit (unless caught in a tractor beam, which would
probably be a lucky snare for the Borg). They could, as you said,
make some very snappy attack runs...and if we're looking at 191 megatons
times four protorps per fighter, and 12 fighters, that's 9.1 gigatons.

Can a cube take that much energy? I don't know. My own estimate
of photon torpedos puts them at an effective yield of 3.3 megatons
or thereabouts, based on shield resistance to solar EM. The cube
in "BOBW" supposedly took a blast that was "greater than our phasers
and photon torpedos could ever provide" for about seven seconds.
(Basically, it was routing warp 9.6 level power straight through the
deflector dish.) If the beam delivered that level of energy each
second, the BOBW cube had shields on the order of 5.7 gigatons (825 MT/sec.).

Though this estimate might be high for several reasons, it did only strike one axis of the cube and it had no effect on the cube's shield. To defeat
the shields, one would think you'd need to dump a fair amount more
energy into them...by how much, though, I don't know (what else is
new?). Several times more? Picard didn't even flinch, and his "bridge" didn't even shudder from the impact.

We could just as easily assume photorps have an effective yield of 500 kilotons apiece, and that 250 of them would only amount to 125 megatons, etc.

Even then, a single shield axis might still stand up to a gigaton or two. It also has a hull far stronger than a standard cube's: VGR was able to
score direct hits to the non-armored portions of the cube's dorsal axis
(*after* a Borgified Torres lowered the shields in that area), and there
was no visible damage. It couldn't withstand a gigaton unshielded--not
a chance--but it could rather easily attempt to present the TIEs with
fresh shield axes (something for which we do have a precedent,
"Scorpion II"). The cube can turn rather rapidly, so this might be
a viable tactic.

[Connor MacLeod]

Looks good Sean. I'll go into more depth with my conclusions later, but I just wanted to point out that the way its shaping up, it reall is going to come down to missile type/yield, effective targeting range, and mobility/durability on the Cube's part. The EW and poitn defense aspects seem to favor the possiblity of a Defender missile assault, hinging on what effective range they are able to acquire and launch.

But, as I said, I'll go more in depth into this later