Marines: "We won't be as tough as the Army"

[Stravo]

December 12, 2003
DISPATCHES: THE MILITARY
Marines Plan to Use Velvet Glove More Than Iron Fist in Iraq
By MICHAEL R. GORDON

AMP PENDLETON, Calif., Dec. 10 — No force has a tougher reputation than the United States Marines. But the marines who are headed to Iraq this spring say they intend to avoid the get-tough tactics that have been used in recent weeks by Army units.

Marine commanders say they do not plan to surround villages with barbed wire, demolish buildings used by insurgents or detain relatives of suspected guerrillas. The Marines do not plan to fire artillery at suspected guerrilla mortar positions, an Army tactic that risks harming civilians. Nor do the Marines want to risk civilian casualties by calling in bombing strikes on the insurgents, as has happened most recently in Afghanistan.

"I do not envision using that tactic," said Lt. Gen. James T. Conway, the commanding general of the First Marine Expeditionary Force, who led the Marine force that fought its way to Baghdad and will command the more than 20,000 marines who will return to Iraq in March. "It would have to be a rare incident that transcends anything that we have seen in the country to make that happen."

The increase in guerrilla attacks on American troops in Iraq has prompted Army units in the so-called Sunni triangle in central Iraq to adopt a hard-nosed approach — and spawned a behind-the-scenes debate within the American military about the best way to quash the insurgents.

While some Army commanders insist the hard-nosed tactics have been successful in reducing enemy attacks, other military officers believe they are alienating Iraqis and thus depriving American commanders of the public support and human intelligence needed to ferret out threats.

In an interview at his headquarters at Camp Pendleton, General Conway was careful not to criticize the Army. Still, he indicated that he plans to pursue a very different strategy.

"I don't want to condemn what people are doing," General Conway said. "I think they are doing what they think they have to do. I'll simply say that I think until we can win the population over and they can give us those indigenous intelligence reports that we're prolonging the process."

The Marines, General Conway says, will try to design their raids to be "laser precise," focused on the enemy with a maximum effort made to avoid endangering or humiliating Iraqi civilians.

After American forces invaded Iraq last spring, United States marines fought some of the fiercest battles of the war at Nasiriya and at a mosque in eastern Baghdad. After Saddam Hussein was ousted, the Marines assumed the responsibility for stabilizing south-central Iraq, where most of the inhabitants are Shiite Muslims who were persecuted under Mr. Hussein and were glad to see him gone. In contrast to the Army's experience, no marine was killed in action after mid-April.

The Marines insist their success also reflected their energetic efforts to work with the local population, an effort guided by their "Small Wars" manual, which derives from their 20th-century interventions in Central America.

There were several parallels between the Marine experience in southern Iraq and how the Army's 101st Airborne Division has approached northern Iraq — and many differences from the aggressive tactics of the Army's Fourth Infantry Division and other Army units in the Sunni triangle.

On their return to Iraq now, the Marines will be dealing with a much more challenging area which includes restive towns like Falluja, west of Baghdad.

In that region, American military units have come and gone so often that they have had little time to understand their surroundings. Falluja was initially occupied by the 82nd Airborne Division, which was soon replaced by the Third Armored Cavalry Regiment, which was in turn replaced by the Second Brigade of the Army's Third Infantry Division. In early summer, the Third Infantry Division had some success in helping to establish the local police. But it returned to the United States, handing the town back to the Third Armored Cavalry, which was soon replaced by the 82nd Airborne.

In Iraqi society, which emphasizes personal relationships, the constant rotations have made a difficult job that much harder. So have some tactics: in April, soldiers from the 82nd Airborne based themselves in Falluja and were fired on during an anti-American demonstration. The troops fired back. Iraqis say 17 people were killed and more than 70 wounded, many of them civilians who never fired on the American troops. The 82nd Airborne has disputed that account.

Starting next March, nine battalions of marines will be deployed. In addition to infantry, the Marine force will include light armored reconnaissance units, engineers and attack helicopters. The Marines will also take command of a brigade from the Army's First Infantry Division, which is also going to Iraq in the spring.

Success, Marine commanders say, will ultimately depend winning the trust of a wary Iraqi population. The measure of progress, General Conway says, will not be the number of American raids or enemy dead. It will be tips about potential threats that are provided to the Marines by ordinary Iraqis.

"The program we used in the south was a maturing Iraqi police, supported by an Army M.P. company in each of the cities, supported by a Marine quick reaction force," he said, defining this as a Marine infantry battalion. "That worked very well for us. That is the model we intend to use."

Toward this end, the Marines are planning to work with the Iraqi police and also train and equip an Iraqi military force to take on the insurgents. "We intend to create an Iraqi Marine battalion, maybe a brigade," General Conway said.

Marine commanders have stressed the need to be sensitive to local traditions. Marines here have been told to remove their sunglasses and look Iraqis in the eye when they speak with them. A select group of marines also been selected for intensive Arabic language training. The marines will use Iraqi, not American names, to delineate the zones assigned to specific Marine units and will try to align them with Iraqi administrative districts. To limit the disruption to the local populations, the Marines also plan to set up their bases outside of Iraqi cities.

But the marines at Camp Pendleton are also prepared to fight.

"We carry an embedded offensive capability in every convoy," said Maj. Gen. James N. Mattis, the commander of the First Marine Division. "To us you don't drive on through, you stop, you hunt them down and you nail them."

"We will try to go and restore a degree of civility," said General Mattis. "If they choose to fight, they are going to regret it, but we also believe that part of the physicians' oath that says first do no harm. If to kill a terrorist we have got to kill eight innocent people, you don't kill them."

General Conway added: "We will be as vicious with the resistance as we have to be. It is not that we intend to go in and coddle everyone. Our marines just have to be able to be aggressive and hostile one moment and the next moment be able to play soccer with the kids."

General Conway said, for instance, that if marines fire artillery shells, they will be special illumination rounds to light up terrain, not destroy targets.

"Right now, in some of the sectors they are firing artillery missions against radar hits," General Conway said. "That will not be our method of operation."

Sounds like a good plan, wonder how it will go over. And I wonder if the Army is a tad upset at the sort of backhanded comment against Army tactics.

[Knife]

Marines Plan to Use Velvet Glove More Than Iron Fist in Iraq

Success, Marine commanders say, will ultimately depend winning the trust of a wary Iraqi population. The measure of progress, General Conway says, will not be the number of American raids or enemy dead. It will be tips about potential threats that are provided to the Marines by ordinary Iraqis

"We carry an embedded offensive capability in every convoy," said Maj. Gen. James N. Mattis, the commander of the First Marine Division. "To us you don't drive on through, you stop, you hunt them down and you nail them."

Sounds to me like their planning on using infantry tactics and CQB instead of armor and artillery. I think it will make some progress. I've not been thrilled with the Army's stategy of airstrikes to take out one guy and the such. They are too paranoid of loosing soldiers that they are hurting their position. It seems, my beloved Corps. plans to change this a little.

God Speed, leather necks.

[LadyTevar]

Go Marines!!


But for some reason this brings to mind a little commerical that's been running in the area, where a little girl goes up to a Marine standing guard duty and whispers her Christmas list to him, then runs away saying 'He *is* Santa Claus!"

[Knife]

Go Marines!!


But for some reason this brings to mind a little commerical that's been running in the area, where a little girl goes up to a Marine standing guard duty and whispers her Christmas list to him, then runs away saying 'He *is* Santa Claus!"

I like that commercial. I always give to the Toys for Tots.

[LadyTevar]

Go Marines!!


But for some reason this brings to mind a little commerical that's been running in the area, where a little girl goes up to a Marine standing guard duty and whispers her Christmas list to him, then runs away saying 'He *is* Santa Claus!"

I like that commercial. I always give to the Toys for Tots.

Me too! Someone took the little stuffed penguin I dropped in the barrel at work and fastened him to the front by his santa hat as a mascot

[Sea Skimmer]

The thing is the Army tired being soft, and the result was an escalating level of attacks, since they've gone to a hard line approach the numbers have been considerably reduced.

[Stuart Mackey]

The thing is the Army tired being soft, and the result was an escalating level of attacks, since they've gone to a hard line approach the numbers have been considerably reduced.

That kind of hard nosed attitude only works for so long then its back tot he same old. The US armies problem was that it pissed the locals off and that no way to rebuild a nation.

[Vympel]

These get tough tactics can't last forever. The USMC has the right idea. You can't sustain that sort of operational tempo against an already disgruntled population and expect progress.

[Darth Wong]

It's gotten to the point where explosions, Iraqi civilian casualties, and US military casualties are not even getting coverage on the news any more. It's become "normal".

[Stuart Mackey]

It's gotten to the point where explosions, Iraqi civilian casualties, and US military casualties are not even getting coverage on the news any more. It's become "normal".

If the Iraqi's get smart about what they are doing, that could change.
But what wont ever become normal is the expendature on Iraq. War is an expensive job, it would seem.

[Darth Fanboy]

I only have one problem with this strategy the USMC is using.

It means several of my friends are going to have to go BACK over to Iraq after being over there for a long-ass time already. Its most uncool.

[Symmetry]

It's gotten to the point where explosions, Iraqi civilian casualties, and US military casualties are not even getting coverage on the news any more. It's become "normal".

If its no worse than crime in some American cities, who's to say it shouldn't become normal?

[Hamel]

It's gotten to the point where explosions, Iraqi civilian casualties, and US military casualties are not even getting coverage on the news any more. It's become "normal".

If its no worse than crime in some American cities, who's to say it shouldn't become normal?

Yeah, a bunch of south central homiez are sporting RPG lauchers and AKs in tha hood

Stale rhetoric.

[Vympel]

If its no worse than crime in some American cities, who's to say it shouldn't become normal?

And where did you pull that bullshit from?

[Symmetry]

It's gotten to the point where explosions, Iraqi civilian casualties, and US military casualties are not even getting coverage on the news any more. It's become "normal".

If its no worse than crime in some American cities, who's to say it shouldn't become normal?

Yeah, a bunch of south central homiez are sporting RPG lauchers and AKs in tha hood

Stale rhetoric.

Casualties per thousand among US forces in Iraq are lower than among cops in LA. Last I checked ~250 US soldiers have been killed in the half year since Bush declared the fighting over at the beggining of May. With 150,000 soldiers in Iraq, thats about 33 deaths per ten thousand per year. Now, the average death rate in the US is 85 per 10000 and some lucky ethnic groups have up to twice that. Here we see that the death rate for the 15 to 24 age group is only 8 for all causes of death, which isn't that much lower, but we can still see that the troops are in substantialy more danger in Iraq than they would be back home in civilian jobs, if not hugely more so. It rises to 8.5 from violence alone for black males in that age-group, but I wasn't able to find the statistics for black inner-city males ages 15-24, so even though I remember that they are higher, I can't prove it.

As to the type of weapons they use, I agree that streetsweepers and 9s aren't the same as RPGs, but I don't think it matters how someone dies, it matters whether they die. To concentrate so much attention on 150,000 people in Iraq when there are millions of people in the US dieing at a greater rate strikes me as a bit odd. Granted violent death rates in the US have been around for decades and have been declining steadily and relativly quickly, but still...

[Symmetry]

Sorry, all that statistics scrounging made me forget to drop the first sentence. I'm pretty sure its true, but I couldn't find the statistics again so you might as well ignore it (unless you can find a link to death rates among LA cops).

[SirNitram]

It's gotten to the point where explosions, Iraqi civilian casualties, and US military casualties are not even getting coverage on the news any more. It's become "normal".

If its no worse than crime in some American cities, who's to say it shouldn't become normal?

The apathy towards human death and suffering shown by some 'civilized' people always strikes me as disgusting, especially when it's death and suffering something can be done about.