Kindergarden behaviour by the US

Stuart Mackey · Post by **Stuart Mackey** » 2003-12-12 09:44pm

MKSheppard wrote:
Stuart Mackey wrote: Yeah and the sun never sets on the British Empire right?
Hey, it's not my fault the British got into WWI and proceeded to
waste the cream of the Empire's Youth and treasure in pointless
human wave attacks right up to 1918, that even the French
gave up on years ago.

Actually Shep, it was economic mismanagement that finished of the Empire before WW1, everything was balanced on the success or failure of the British economy. The Empire was a severe drain on the economy esp a place like India..hey never really invested anywhere, improved education etc.
The US can face exactly same fate..just look at the US deficit.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2003-12-12 10:27pm

<irritated australian sarcasm> But remember all you non-Americans... what we can't understand is that Americans just know whats right! Everyone should jolly well do what they're told, and they'll be rewarded for their collaboration! Even when the American pretext is shown to be false, we'll just have to doublethink our way out or that dilemma! And heaven protect anyone who goes beyond merely having an opinion and wants to *voice* it! Thats just not cricket, after all, our American leaders know what best, don't they? </irritated australian sarcasm>

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2003-12-12 11:00pm

Stuart Mackey wrote: The US can face exactly same fate..just look at the US deficit.

Yeah, the deficits been growing and growing and we're about to be
bankrupt....oh wait, that hasn't happened, despite massive deficit ballooing
since WWII, we seem to muddle along, maybe because we've never
killed off an entire generation in pointless human wave attacks.

Yeah, it's funny, Britain went into WWI with a fuckload of hard capital, and
came out of it utterly broke in 1918, and was saved only by American
capital loans...and then stupidly repeated the process a generation later
with Nazi Germany, ending up completely utterly destitute.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-12-12 11:06pm

MKSheppard wrote:
Stuart Mackey wrote: The US can face exactly same fate..just look at the US deficit.
Yeah, the deficits been growing and growing and we're about to be
bankrupt....oh wait, that hasn't happened, despite massive deficit ballooing
since WWII, we seem to muddle along, maybe because we've never
killed off an entire generation in pointless human wave attacks.

You know, the reflection of the 'Oh, we've spent all the money but we'll be fine' was exactly that of the Empire before it's collapse, too. The 'We'll muddle by' mentality was identical to many of those in England at the time. You don't actually realize how perfectly you mimic the mentality. Whether you'll suffer the same fate has yet to be seen, but could you try and, I don't know, not continue to be just like what you're claiming can't happen?

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2003-12-12 11:10pm

SirNitram wrote: You know, the reflection of the 'Oh, we've spent all the money but we'll be fine' was exactly that of the Empire before it's collapse, too.

We spent all our money decades ago. I don't have the calcs on me, but add
up the total cost of the Civil War, World War I, World War II, The Korean
War, Vietnam War, and the Cold War, and then get back to me

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2003-12-12 11:20pm

The American economy has enormous regenerative capabilities. You could
probably assfuck it severely and it would come back stronger than ever
in about 10-15 years. Smaller countries can't do that as well. Britain should
have avoided any more entanglements on the Continent after WWI,
relying on the Royal Navy to keep the Empire safe, rather than
sending another army to get massacred on the Continent.

Let the Frogs take care of the continent, in other words.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2003-12-12 11:30pm

Forgive me if I'm rambling on a stream of consciousness binge here,
but thinking about it more, Britain could have recovered from WWI, and
retained her former status as a Great Power, if she hadn't guranteed
the independence of Poland.

That, then and there, was the beginning of the end for the Empire, as
Britain committed herself to going to war on behalf of a country she
can't even help at all, and on behalf of a country that has been the
traditional asskicking grounds of Europe for the last thousand years?

Someone in His Majesty's government was not thinking very clearly at
that time, or was hopped up on some really good shit when he committed
the British Empire into a strategic situation that could only end one way;
with them fucked up the ass once again for the second time in 25 years.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2003-12-12 11:35pm

I actually agree with Shep's thoughts on British overextention in the 30's. They were a little delusional to think their economy could stand another major war; on the other hand, they fought against evil and tyranny, and lost everything. America, anyone?

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2003-12-12 11:39pm

MKSheppard wrote: Someone in His Majesty's government was not thinking very clearly at
that time, or was hopped up on some really good shit when he committed
the British Empire into a strategic situation that could only end one way;
with them fucked up the ass once again for the second time in 25 years.

Let's do some thinking here.

You are guranteeing the independence of a mostly landlocked country
that you cannot reach, and is surrounded in the West by Nazi Germanys
blond haired stormtrooper legions, and in the east by Uncle Joe
Stalin's Happy Fun Boys, in 1939.

Now, isn't that the stupidest fucking thing you've heard of?

Out of curiosity, why didn't Britain declare war on Russia when the
Russians invaded Poland in the east? Or did some sanity finally
prevail in Whitehall?

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2003-12-12 11:44pm

Some parallels can be drawn here with the current China/Taiwan tensions.

We have never come out and stated that yes, we will defend Taiwan if
China attacks it. While that may be a little morally repugnant, it allows
us to keep our options open as long as possible, rather than being
locked into declaring war onto China, if they lob a missile right onto
Taipei, into the Taiwanese parliment.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-12-13 12:17am

I'll add a little history on why so little happened after we 'guaranteed' Poland. The phrase to learn is 'Appeasement'. An annoying amount of Parliment loved doing it, wanted to avoid the war at all costs by shovelling the less fortunate into Hitler's maw.

As for your theory that 30's overextension killed the Empire, far more learned than you or I have worked on this problem, Mark, and it's not the thirties. By then, the Empire was already almost a Commonwealth. The real downslide had started with India, or, possibly, with the American Revolution(Which in turn influenced actions in India.. And so on towards the present day).

As for whether America will collapse like the Colonial powers, I'm not tossing my chips in to either side yet. The similarities are immense, but the accelerated pace and the different world might change things. I'll wait and see. It will be interesting, none the less.

Stuart Mackey · Post by **Stuart Mackey** » 2003-12-13 01:03am

MKSheppard wrote:
Stuart Mackey wrote: The US can face exactly same fate..just look at the US deficit.
Yeah, the deficits been growing and growing and we're about to be
bankrupt....oh wait, that hasn't happened, despite massive deficit ballooing
since WWII, we seem to muddle along, maybe because we've never
killed off an entire generation in pointless human wave attacks.

Yeah and you dont think that that can become unsustainable at some point. Sooner or later America is only going to be first among equels then you will understand the desirability of a balanced budget.
Tell ya what..get a credit card and spend heaps on it, make sure that you spend enought that you can only cover the interest and see what happens.

Yeah, it's funny, Britain went into WWI with a fuckload of hard capital, and
came out of it utterly broke in 1918, and was saved only by American
capital loans...and then stupidly repeated the process a generation later
with Nazi Germany, ending up completely utterly destitute.

Oh..I wonder why

Stuart Mackey · Post by **Stuart Mackey** » 2003-12-13 01:07am

MKSheppard wrote:The American economy has enormous regenerative capabilities. You could
probably assfuck it severely and it would come back stronger than ever
in about 10-15 years. Smaller countries can't do that as well. Britain should
have avoided any more entanglements on the Continent after WWI,
relying on the Royal Navy to keep the Empire safe, rather than
sending another army to get massacred on the Continent.

Did it ever occur to you that Britian was once in the position?
The situation you are in will not last forever, just as Britains positin did not last forever and for much the same reasons.

Let the Frogs take care of the continent, in other words.

Way to ignore political and millitary relities.

Stuart Mackey · Post by **Stuart Mackey** » 2003-12-13 01:14am

MKSheppard wrote:Forgive me if I'm rambling on a stream of consciousness binge here,
but thinking about it more, Britain could have recovered from WWI, and
retained her former status as a Great Power, if she hadn't guranteed
the independence of Poland.

That, then and there, was the beginning of the end for the Empire, as
Britain committed herself to going to war on behalf of a country she
can't even help at all, and on behalf of a country that has been the
traditional asskicking grounds of Europe for the last thousand years?

Someone in His Majesty's government was not thinking very clearly at
that time, or was hopped up on some really good shit when he committed
the British Empire into a strategic situation that could only end one way;
with them fucked up the ass once again for the second time in 25 years.

That would have to be the stupidest thing I have heard in five hours.
Can you say Munich and Czechoslovakia? not to mention Austria.
To allow a man like Hitler the resources to rape Europe unopposed would be to go against 800 years of always opposing the strongest power in Europe. For the moment Britian failed to do that would be to hand that hegomon the keys to Britian.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-12-13 01:19am

Shep, in terms of world history, America has been on top for a very short time: not even a century. It is rather early for you to brag about how it's somehow immune to the problems which brought other superpowers back down to Earth, isn't it?

Stuart Mackey · Post by **Stuart Mackey** » 2003-12-13 01:22am

MKSheppard wrote:
MKSheppard wrote: Someone in His Majesty's government was not thinking very clearly at
that time, or was hopped up on some really good shit when he committed
the British Empire into a strategic situation that could only end one way;
with them fucked up the ass once again for the second time in 25 years.
Let's do some thinking here.

You are guranteeing the independence of a mostly landlocked country
that you cannot reach, and is surrounded in the West by Nazi Germanys
blond haired stormtrooper legions, and in the east by Uncle Joe
Stalin's Happy Fun Boys, in 1939.

Now, isn't that the stupidest fucking thing you've heard of?

Ever read about the Duke of Malbourgh? or for that matter Pitt?
If Britian did not make a stand against Nazi Germany then they would be unable to do so in the future and eventually be forced to capitulate to the forces 'of a new dark age, made even more sinister by perverted science' simply because they would lack the ability to do so.

Out of curiosity, why didn't Britain declare war on Russia when the
Russians invaded Poland in the east? Or did some sanity finally
prevail in Whitehall?

Shep there is one wee thing you are missing..Britian is independent. Had they not stood up to Hitler they would not be. In siding with the USSR, they were doing no more than they had done througout their history in having a large continental power to bleed the enemy dry.

Iceberg · Post by **Iceberg** » 2003-12-13 01:33am

Darth Wong wrote:Shep, in terms of world history, America has been on top for a very short time: not even a century. It is rather early for you to brag about how it's somehow immune to the problems which brought other superpowers back down to Earth, isn't it?

This is Shep we're talking about. When have sanity and proper risk assessment ever been his strong suits (or even his not-terribly-weak ones)?

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2003-12-13 01:35am

Duke of Marlborough? You know, maybe the comparison would be a little more valid if Marlborough hadn't died over a hundred years before German actually existed...

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2003-12-13 01:42am

Iceberg wrote: This is Shep we're talking about. When have sanity and proper risk assessment ever been his strong suits (or even his not-terribly-weak ones)?

Ok tell me then, barring a massive natural disaster on the scale of the Yosemite Caldera, how is a country that occupies almost an entire continent,
has 300 million people, has a massive technologial advantage, and is
roughly a single uniform culture going to be toppled? The Russians
lost something like a quarter of their population in WWII and had
massive amounts of cities and other infrastructure destoyed, and
were still a superpower postwar.

About the only thing I can imagine that would topple the US would be
an asteroid a mile or so wide hitting us right smack dab in the geographic
center of the US.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2003-12-13 01:44am

Care to explain to me how the German army is going to cross the english
channel, without the help of Magic Space Bats?

Stuart Mackey · Post by **Stuart Mackey** » 2003-12-13 01:49am

HemlockGrey wrote:Duke of Marlborough? You know, maybe the comparison would be a little more valid if Marlborough hadn't died over a hundred years before German actually existed...

I am talkling about historical comparisons..you know..geography..

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2003-12-13 01:51am

Stuart Mackey wrote: If Britian did not make a stand against Nazi Germany then they would be unable to do so in the future and eventually be forced to capitulate to the forces 'of a new dark age, made even more sinister by perverted science' simply because they would lack the ability to do so.

All fear the almighty fleet of Rhine Barges led by the Magic Space Bats.

In siding with the USSR, they were doing no more than they had done througout their history in having a large continental power to bleed the enemy dry.

Didn’t they gurantee the independence of Poland? And did the USSR not
violate the independence of poland by invading in concert witth Germany
to carve up Poland? You know, the guys who had a joint parade in Warsaw with Red Army and Wehrmacht generals standing side by side?

Aren’t you supposed to fight the aggressors in this case?

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-12-13 01:51am

MKSheppard wrote:Ok tell me then, barring a massive natural disaster on the scale of the Yosemite Caldera, how is a country that occupies almost an entire continent, has 300 million people, has a massive technologial advantage, and is roughly a single uniform culture going to be toppled?

It doesn't have to be "toppled". It only has to fade away, which is what most world empires have done. Was Britain ever conquered? No, it just faded away.

Over the long term, none of these factors are necessarily constant. You are exaggerating America's technological advantage relative to other first-world nations, and America hardly has a single uniform culture. Over the long view, it is hardly inconceivable that cultural and economic divisions between different regions of the US could lead to serious problems, or that a European or Asian superpower bloc might arise to compete with the US on equal footing, or that successive corrupt American governments might fuck up the country, etc. Hell, one might even postulate religious separatist movements. Lots of things can go wrong given time, Shep.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2003-12-13 01:53am

MKSheppard wrote: Didn’t they gurantee the independence of Poland? And did the USSR not
violate the independence of poland by invading in concert witth Germany
to carve up Poland?

Damn TYPODEMONS...

should read “Didn’t the USSR violate the independence of poland...

Stuart Mackey · Post by **Stuart Mackey** » 2003-12-13 01:53am

MKSheppard wrote:Care to explain to me how the German army is going to cross the english
channel, without the help of Magic Space Bats?

You mean if Germany dominates the entire Euoprean continent? You know there are other mean of acheiving dominance over a nation other than direct invasion. I would have though this would be self expanitory, esp given attitudes of the time.