size matters not

Shrykull · Post by **Shrykull** » 2003-12-11 08:18pm

I take it this isn't an absolute statement, that an object of any size (like a black hole or death star) can't be moved by a single jedi, at least well it would depend on how in tune they are with the force, it took more than a single jedi to throw those ships light years away, and the focusing pyramid, and some died after they did it.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2003-12-11 08:21pm

The limitations lie with the Jedi, not the Force. Dorsk 81's death was caused by channeling too much Force energy through himself, like when you overload an electrical circuit. A mortal's mind and body are apparently imperfect insulators.

Shrykull · Post by **Shrykull** » 2003-12-11 08:31pm

Rogue 9 wrote:The limitations lie with the Jedi, not the Force. Dorsk 81's death was caused by channeling too much Force energy through himself, like when you overload an electrical circuit. A mortal's mind and body are apparently imperfect insulators.

but some mortals are better insulators than others, correct? Otherwise they'd all be able to do anything any other jedi could do.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2003-12-11 08:45pm

Yes, I suppose. Dorsk 81 is the only Jedi to literally burn himself out like that that I know of, though.

Super-Gagme · Post by **Super-Gagme** » 2003-12-11 09:53pm

So this begs the question, what race is the superior force wielder due to being able to channel more energy?

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2003-12-11 10:37pm

Has nothing to do with race. Its something entirely unique to the individual, as far as I know. In fact, Dorsk 81 proved this by even having Force powers, despite the fact that he was the 81st clone in a long line, no other of which exhibited Force ability despite having identical genetic structure.

Crazedwraith · Post by **Crazedwraith** » 2003-12-12 10:43am

Rogue 9 wrote:Has nothing to do with race. Its something entirely unique to the individual, as far as I know. In fact, Dorsk 81 proved this by even having Force powers, despite the fact that he was the 81st clone in a long line, no other of which exhibited Force ability despite having identical genetic structure.

maybe maybe not Dorsk 82 had force powers, who's to say that all the dorsks haven't all has force powers but no could tell? until luke found 81

Robert Walper · Post by **Robert Walper** » 2003-12-12 11:29am

Actually, in AOTC, we see what appears to be severe limitations to Force users moving large objects. Size and mass do matter from what I gathered. When Count Dooku collapsed the large colume towards Obi Won and Anakin, Yoda exerted some very noticeable effort and time to stop it, and he's considered the most powerful individual of the Jedi order.

Side note: Yoda should have used the Force to simply shift the colume's falling trajectory instead of simply lifting the entire thing. Deflecting it sufficently would have accomplished the same feat(ie: the colume slamming down beside the two fallen Jedi) without all the extra effort to levitate it. He should've just slowed it instead of stopping it all together to reduce the effect of it impacting the ground.

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2003-12-12 12:36pm

Robert Walper wrote:Side note: Yoda should have used the Force to simply shift the colume's falling trajectory instead of simply lifting the entire thing. Deflecting it sufficently would have accomplished the same feat(ie: the colume slamming down beside the two fallen Jedi) without all the extra effort to levitate it. He should've just slowed it instead of stopping it all together to reduce the effect of it impacting the ground.

True, but you've had years to think about this. Yoda had precisely a split second before his friends were crushed.

Wild Karrde · Post by **Wild Karrde** » 2003-12-12 12:41pm

Robert Walper wrote:Actually, in AOTC, we see what appears to be severe limitations to Force users moving large objects. Size and mass do matter from what I gathered.

AOTC is not a good sorce to judge upper limits for force powers, especially considering that both Yoda and Mace were very worried about the Jedi's powers being diminished and the Dark-side clouding everything.

When Count Dooku collapsed the large colume towards Obi Won and Anakin, Yoda exerted some very noticeable effort and time to stop it, and he's considered the most powerful individual of the Jedi order.

Prove that Dooku wasn't using his force powers to push the colume onto Anakin and Obi-wan forcing Yoda to exert more force power.

Super-Gagme · Post by **Super-Gagme** » 2003-12-12 02:50pm

I keep seeing it but where does everyone get that by the Jedi being weakened they must mean powers? Could it perhaps mean less Jedi? The order has less influence maybe? Just curious where everyone pulls this from.

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2003-12-12 02:55pm

Super-Gagme wrote:I keep seeing it but where does everyone get that by the Jedi being weakened they must mean powers? Could it perhaps mean less Jedi? The order has less influence maybe? Just curious where everyone pulls this from.

Mace Windu: I think it is time to inform the Senate that
our ability to use the Force has diminished. -AOTC

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2003-12-12 03:05pm

in Episode 1, qui-gon mentions how metichlorines (sp?) affect someone's ability to use the force, and that anakin had one of the highest concentrations that he'd seen outside of Yoda, suggesting that the metichlorines affect how much force power someone is potentially capable of channeling?

it could be that something was affecting the metichlorine count of the jedi to cause their force abilities to lessen. admittedly i could be off, but it seems like a reasonable guess.

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2003-12-12 04:37pm

Darth_Zod wrote:in Episode 1, qui-gon mentions how metichlorines (sp?) affect someone's ability to use the force, and that anakin had one of the highest concentrations that he'd seen outside of Yoda, suggesting that the metichlorines affect how much force power someone is potentially capable of channeling?

it could be that something was affecting the metichlorine count of the jedi to cause their force abilities to lessen. admittedly i could be off, but it seems like a reasonable guess.

In TPM, we are told there is a correlation between Midichlorians and force ability. Nothing more.

Super-Gagme · Post by **Super-Gagme** » 2003-12-12 04:39pm

neoolong wrote:
Super-Gagme wrote:I keep seeing it but where does everyone get that by the Jedi being weakened they must mean powers? Could it perhaps mean less Jedi? The order has less influence maybe? Just curious where everyone pulls this from.
Mace Windu: I think it is time to inform the Senate that
our ability to use the Force has diminished. -AOTC

Ah well okay guess that about sums it up

Spartan · Post by **Spartan** » 2003-12-12 05:47pm

Let us not forget that Yoda, had just fought a Former Jedi Council member and Sith Lord to a stand still! How are we to quantify that energy expenditure. Their no way to know but we do have other examples. The emperor tore a wormhole in space and attacked a planet with the Force...Sheeesh.

Sir Sirius · Post by **Sir Sirius** » 2003-12-12 06:06pm

Wild Karrde wrote:Prove that Dooku wasn't using his force powers to push the colume onto Anakin and Obi-wan forcing Yoda to exert more force power.

Burden of Proof fallacy, that statement falls in to the same gategory as "Prove that god doesn't exist". The burden is on you to prove that Dooku tried to do so. AFAIK there is nothing in the movie suggesting that Dooku tried doing that and there was nothing about that in the novelization either.

YT300000 · Post by **YT300000** » 2003-12-12 06:23pm

At any rate that pillar weighted a lot, and falling objects exert much more force than static ones.

Wild Karrde · Post by **Wild Karrde** » 2003-12-12 07:11pm

Sir Sirius wrote:Burden of Proof fallacy, that statement falls in to the same gategory as "Prove that god doesn't exist". The burden is on you to prove that Dooku tried to do so. AFAIK there is nothing in the movie suggesting that Dooku tried doing that and there was nothing about that in the novelization either.

Wrong. force users regulary use their force powers to inhibit eachother in lightsaber duels to try and gain the upper hand over one another, (which IIRC was stated in the Ep.II novel) specifically the Yoda/Dooku duel. Why would the pillar be any different?

Also why would Dooku stick around after he snapped the pillar supports instead of pausing several moments looking on?

The ship door also doesn't close until right after Yoda pushed the pillar away implying Dooku was doing something.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2003-12-12 07:36pm

That's pretty significant - considering Dooku used the collapse of the pillar to disengage from Yoda, there wasn't any reason to hang about unless he was trying to make sure the two Jedi were crushed...

However, force use without gestures is inconsistent - on Bespin, Vader turned his back on Luke to hit a switch, but later threw things around without raising a finger. It's going to be hard to establish Dooku's contribution if there's nothing in the novel about it.

Wild Karrde · Post by **Wild Karrde** » 2003-12-12 09:02pm

Stark wrote:However, force use without gestures is inconsistent - on Bespin, Vader turned his back on Luke to hit a switch, but later threw things around without raising a finger. It's going to be hard to establish Dooku's contribution if there's nothing in the novel about it.

Not really. Vader also didn't need to gesture as he force choked Admiral Ozzel.

I also believe in The Courtship Of Princess Leia Luke stated something along the lines of gestures to use Force powers aren't needed but they make it easier to concentrate on something.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2003-12-12 11:23pm

Wild Karrde wrote:Not really. Vader also didn't need to gesture as he force choked Admiral Ozzel.

I also believe in The Courtship Of Princess Leia Luke stated something along the lines of gestures to use Force powers aren't needed but they make it easier to concentrate on something.

I agree that force users don't need gestures to use the force, I was pointing out it makes determining what, if anything, Dooku is doing.

One for the SW gang - what masses more, the pillar or an X-wing? Yoda moved the X-wing from under the swamp with little effort, but seemed to struggle with the pillar.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2003-12-12 11:27pm

Yoda also just finished a rather grueling lightsabre and Force battle with Dooku before dealing with the pillar, while he didn't do anything before raising the X-wing. So he might have been a little taxed when moving the pillar.

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2003-12-13 03:01pm

Stark wrote: One for the SW gang - what masses more, the pillar or an X-wing? Yoda moved the X-wing from under the swamp with little effort, but seemed to struggle with the pillar.

that depends on how much the pillar weighs vs. the x-wing. and as it is a falling object will naturally have alot more force behind it to resist than a stationary one. which i think was pointed out.

Jason von Evil · Post by **Jason von Evil** » 2003-12-13 04:32pm

Rogue 9 wrote:Yes, I suppose. Dorsk 81 is the only Jedi to literally burn himself out like that that I know of, though.

So, that's why he's posting at SDnet, eh?