Borg Drones vs Jawas

[SirNitram]

Oh, you mean their little peice of junk that is noticably smaller than several Spheres seen in VOY(Come on, one of those was easily ten times the length of Voyager! Don't sell me bullshit, boy.)?

Red Herring. My point was the Borg have a functional spacecraft with firepower capable of being deployed from orbit. So obviously the Borg have guns, which you implied they didn't. Concession accepted.

You have alot of gall to claim Red Herring then this. So because the Sphere can cause some tiny, hand grenade explosions, the Borg have guns? Are you purposely this retarded?

Additionally, your assertion that the sphere in First Contact is smaller than other spheres seen in Voyager is already known by myself.

So don't use the larger sphere's troop count, dipshit.

Oh, no, it's got orbital bombardment!

Yes, it does. Again, the Borg have guns, which you implied they didn't. Thanks for conceding the point again.

Waiting for the proof the Drones have guns...

Oh, wait. That bombardment does less than a squad of troopers did.

Present your evidence. The sphere had a lower limit amount of firepower to level planetary structures.

No, it had a lower limit to damage a vehicle that is mostly fuel(An ICBM). Said damage did not cook off or largely damage it's fragile fuel tank. In contrast, a half-dozen Stormtroopers completely took apart a Sandcrawler, the size of an apartment building.

Whoopsie. Fuck, depending on the time they appear in, an ISD might happen on it and think it's an escape pod from the Tantive.

Another Red Herring. And you accuse me of desperation. This is a comparison between the Jawa's on Tatooine and a Borg sphere. Or do you seriously think the Empire is going to give a flying fuck about the Jawa's? Your introduction of a ISD is a Red Herring and a concession the Jawa's themselves would be virtually helpless agains it. Concession accepted.

You love to leap to conclusions, you inbred fuck. It's an example of how fucked the Borg are, you retard. Try getting past puberty.

A 'potential crew of 11,000'? BULLSHIT. In fact, BULL-FUCKING-SHIT. I want to see the proof for this.. And keep in mind I'm talking about an escape pod style Sphere, not the giant motherfuckers.

The sphere from First Contact was at least 600 meters in diameter(ref: STENT "Regeneration", and scaling in First contact). The volume of a sphere that size is 113,097,335 cubic meters. Take 1% of that volume, assume 12 cubic meters per drone(2 meters x 2 meters x 3 meters), and that sphere could easily accomodate over 94 thousand Borg drones. I'm being extremely generous to the Jawa's by knocking down potential crew capacity to only 11,000.

Would you like me to give you the potential crew of an ISD by this fallacious argument? Oh no, you'll cry red herring again, because you don't want this bullshit knocked down. If they had that many thousand Borg, why did they not transport them to the Phoenix and simply kill everyone? Or transport everyone aboard the E-E? Present your source for the 11,000 number.

If you're referring to drones, they have it. Similar to how the Empire in the movies hasn't been particularily eager to show us the BDZ operation, despite us accepting they can do it if required.

How about you show the proof then?

I submitted episode names that clearly show the Borg have personal firearms attached to their forearms, and the capability to kill and stun with them if so desired. Your ignorance of such episodes is a perfect example of you bullshitting, while I on the other hand am referencing evidence to back up my claims. Would you like me to talk you through said episodes...lead you from A to B to C and so forth? I'm patient with young children, so you shouldn't be a problem.

Scorpion? Hrrrrrm. Where the Bioship is damaged by a Disrupter? You're a dishonest fuck! Every peice of evidence shows that was a shipboard weapon.

Scorpion is an excellent example of how the Borg are fucked here. They were up against something that shredded them in Melee. Did they shoot it? Nope! Did they rush it? Nope! Did they even try group tactics? Nope! They just marched at it and got ripped apart.

What situation exactly are you referring to? Virtaully all enemies the Borg exhibit such behavior around are completely ineffective against them with their energy weapons, and in hand to hand are outclassed.

Except they did it against an enemy with a weapon that slices them up(Picard in the holodeck)

Yes, Picard single handedly turned the tide against the Borg with his little toy gun and retook the Enterprise....oops! Oh wait, that didn't happen. Picard and his crew were so fucked over that the Borg took decks with incredible ease, and made the Starfleet crew so desperate as to decide to try and self destruct their own ship.

Yes, let's ignore that they didn't change tactics after Picard swiss cheesed two.

and against one who slices & dices(Species).

Yes, we can certainly expect Borg drones to be a formitable fighting force when their ships are blown into fragments, their link to the Collective is severed, their enemy tears through their remaining hull fragments like butter, and Species 8472 is virtually immune to small arms fire.

Show where the Borg were using small arms fire against the Species. There was a pile of Borg Parts.

So you're full of shit.

When you said "you're", I certain you meant "I'm".

Very good Robert. When I say 'You' in this thread, I'm referring to you, Robert Walper.

You're desperate. The Jawas have ranged weaponry,

So do Borg drones. Jawa weaponry would be nullified by transporter technology anyhow.

*Wank wank wank wank* No proof, no nothing. As usual for you.

armoured vehicle,

The Borg have armored spacecraft capable of orbitable bombardment which is completely beyond the Jawa's capability to attack or fend off. Transporters would virtually nullify any type of ground combat on the Jawa's part, (and any need on the Borg's).

*Wank wank wank wank* Going to debate or just make bald assumptions?

and actual sense. The Borg just.. march.. slowly.. ahead.. into.. their.. doom.

Sorta like your arguements...

You're so full of shit I could twist your ears and flush your brain.

These are the Borg from FC. We know their tactics. They walk slowly forward and grapple you. You trying to up their numbers without proof, imply their transporters will allow them victories they never used, and all these other things are just the normal rantings of a rabid Trekkie. Blow me, fucktard.

[FOG3]

Oh, wait. That bombardment does less than a squad of troopers did.

Present your evidence. The sphere had a lower limit amount of firepower to level planetary structures.

Please tell me you're kidding. Level structures? Could someone get a screen capture in here? IIRC those blasts didn't do that good of a job taking out a shed let alone what all is encompassed in "planetary structures." If it could do what you've phrased it as being able to they would have blown away the missile complex instead of making a hole in a roof that could be covered with a sheet of aluminum siding and rather minimal damage all told. It would probably take them hours at that rate to just take out something like a University campus. Sadly I don't have the computer DVD drive to do screen captures myself.

If the sphere is 600m in diameter how big does that make those quantum torpedos that hit it?

[Robert Walper]

That's because I have yet to see any arguement on your behalf that is even worth responding to. I suggest you read the thread, and if you have some point outside of what I've already addressed, by all means, bring it up.

Oh I've read the thread.

Then you've obviously decided to totally disregard and/or ignore all my posts which present evidence in the form of epsiode names that back up my claims.

Trust me, and you're losing credibility after this one trust me.

When my credibility in your eyes concerns me, I'll be sure to let you know.

So far you've ignored the inherent advantage the jawas have with their slugthrowers

Similar to how you've ignored it's not an advantage since the Borg have personal weaponry on their forearms. You've also ignored my points on how transporters would nullify any said slug throwers since the OP gave the Borg an sphere, which is a enormous advantage.

and similar weapons and instead youve used the context of the OP when it suited you and threw it out when it didn't.

Please elaborate on this since I recall no such behavior on my part.

[Ender]

Wait, people are seriously arguing for the jawas here?

[Robert Walper]

Red Herring. My point was the Borg have a functional spacecraft with firepower capable of being deployed from orbit. So obviously the Borg have guns, which you implied they didn't. Concession accepted.

You have alot of gall to claim Red Herring then this.

You bitched about the size of the sphere, which is a Red Herring...I take it you don't realize this?

So because the Sphere can cause some tiny, hand grenade explosions, the Borg have guns?

Was I discussing the firepower of said guns? No, I was discussing the Borg having guns, which you implied they didn't. Concession accepted(again).

Are you purposely this retarded?

Actually, SirNitram, I'm noticing that it is you who are in fact retarded. After realizing this, I'm going to adopt a much more polite attitude towards you, since I cannot fault a retard for being a retard. I'll start explaining things in extremely simplistic terms for you. It was my fault for setting the bar too high for you...again.

Additionally, your assertion that the sphere in First Contact is smaller than other spheres seen in Voyager is already known by myself.

So don't use the larger sphere's troop count, dipshit.

I didn't, but it's understandable you don't realize this. After all, you're completely ignorant on the subject of the Borg, which I assumed you weren't. Again, my mistake at overestimating your knowledge and intelligence, so it's kinda my fault. Sorry guy. *pats you on head*

Waiting for the proof the Drones have guns...

I submitted episode names which prove this, but you're obviously not familar with them. That's okay, it's my mistake for assuming you knew what you were actually talking about, since that's the impression you were giving me. Here, I'll break it down as simply as I can:

STTNG "Descent": A group of rogue Borg engage Enterpise crewmembers, killing a few of them. They are firing energy pulses from their forearms, which I'm desperately hoping you understand implies they have anti-personnel weaponry. These weapons killed a couple of said Enterprise crewmembers.

STTNG "Scorpion": Chakotay and security officers enter the cargo bay which they just learned a group of Borg beamed onto their vessel from the destroyed Borg cube. Upon entering the cargo bay, Seven of Nine(as a Borg, I hope you know what a Borg actually is) turns around a corner and has her right armed raised identically to Borg mentioned in STTNG "Descent". She's clearly threatening Chakotay and his group with her forearm weapon. Given you're semi-retarded state, I'll understand if you try to suggest she was only planning to flip them the bird. But unfortunately, in that case I've have to dismiss you're opinion as having no validity in this thread.

STTNG "Survival Instinct": A Borg sphere containing Borg, including Seven of Nine(again as a Borg) crashes upon a planet. Contact with the Collective is cut off, and Seven and other several Borg survivors get together and start to build a communication beacon to recontact the Collective. During this time, they start to exhibit their orginal personalities and try to escape, while also disabling the communication beacon they were working on. Since Seven of Nine was assimilated as a youth, the Collective is all she knows. So in fear she tracks down the other Borg, stuns them, and reassimilates them into a mini-collective so the can re-contact the Collective. Let me be very clear on this, we literately see Seven of Nine raise her right arm(I'm sure you're going to assume this is coincidence with given example if STVOY "Scorpion") and fire a green energy beam that stuns her fellow Borg comrades. Given the Borg are typically immune to normal stun settings(ref: STTNG "Q Who?"), this probably was a abnormally high stun setting.

I sincerely hope I broke these examples down into small enough bite size pieces for your puny intellect, SirNitram. But if you're semi-retarded, as your arguements clearly suggest, then at least be honest and don't try to look smart.

Present your evidence. The sphere had a lower limit amount of firepower to level planetary structures.

No, it had a lower limit to damage a vehicle that is mostly fuel(An ICBM).

Yeah, as collateral damage. When watching Trek, despite hating it, at least pay attention when planning to discuss it. That, or at least let other parties know you're semi-retarded when making posts in regards to such topics.

Said damage did not cook off or largely damage it's fragile fuel tank.

That's because they didn't directly hit it, and the ICBM ship was in a undergrond structure.

In contrast, a half-dozen Stormtroopers completely took apart a Sandcrawler, the size of an apartment building.

Are you referring to ANH? How many Storm Troopers? How long did it take them to do such damage? How damaged did you say said Sandcrawler was? Where were all those heavily armed Jawa's that have been brought up?

Oh shit! Another Red Herring! A squadron of Storm Troopers can defeat a bunch of Jawa's and their Sandcrawler. I guess in your mind this proves Jawa's can fend off the Borg because in the only canon source where Jawa's were engaged by hostile forces, they were killed.

Another Red Herring. And you accuse me of desperation. This is a comparison between the Jawa's on Tatooine and a Borg sphere. Or do you seriously think the Empire is going to give a flying fuck about the Jawa's? Your introduction of a ISD is a Red Herring and a concession the Jawa's themselves would be virtually helpless agains it. Concession accepted.

You love to leap to conclusions, you inbred fuck. It's an example of how fucked the Borg are, you retard. Try getting past puberty.

Insults without addressing the fact you brought up a Red Herring(Imperial ISD, which is not the issue here). Concession accepted.

The sphere from First Contact was at least 600 meters in diameter(ref: STENT "Regeneration", and scaling in First contact). The volume of a sphere that size is 113,097,335 cubic meters. Take 1% of that volume, assume 12 cubic meters per drone(2 meters x 2 meters x 3 meters), and that sphere could easily accomodate over 94 thousand Borg drones. I'm being extremely generous to the Jawa's by knocking down potential crew capacity to only 11,000.

Would you like me to give you the potential crew of an ISD by this fallacious argument?

You're right, this is another Red Herring. At least you recognized it, but that brings up the question as to why you brought it up anyway. As I said, I suspect you're semi-retarded, therefore I'll just pat you on the head again.

Oh no, you'll cry red herring again, because you don't want this bullshit knocked down.

No, I stated Red Herring because again you're mentioning Imperial warships, which in no concieveable way should be considered part of the Jawa's arsenal. Apparently the only way you feel the Jawa's can put up any type of fight is by involving another party. If you don't, quit bringing them up.

If they had that many thousand Borg, why did they not transport them to the Phoenix and simply kill everyone?

Ahh yes, it's much more efficent to beam down a party to track down and attack a ICBM ship than simply firing from orbit. I suppose this is a ingenius tactic to you...why bother using shipboard weapons to attack planetary targets from orbit when you can beam down troops, take potential losses and destroy said target that much slower. This is further credibility to your retarded state since you actually believe that Borg drones don't have any type of weaponry on their persons. What, were you expecting them to bang on the ICBM ship with hammers and clubs to try and damage it?

Or transport everyone aboard the E-E?

Ahh, yes, the Sphere is under attack by the E-E, but you fully expect the Borg to have the capability to immediately transport their entire crew complement onto the smaller E-E, even though the E-E couldn't conceviably hold that many drones. Did it ever occur to you the Borg may have wanted the E-E to think the Borg threat was dealt with, thus allowing the E-E to be caught offguard, which they were?

Present your source for the 11,000 number.

STVOY "Unimatrix Zero". Borg Queen glancing at a Borg viewscreen of said sphere, states crew complement. And you have absolutely zero evidence to prove this was one of the "bigass" spheres as opposed a 600 meter diameter one which could very easily accomodate that crew capacity.

I submitted episode names that clearly show the Borg have personal firearms attached to their forearms, and the capability to kill and stun with them if so desired. Your ignorance of such episodes is a perfect example of you bullshitting, while I on the other hand am referencing evidence to back up my claims. Would you like me to talk you through said episodes...lead you from A to B to C and so forth? I'm patient with young children, so you shouldn't be a problem.

Scorpion? Hrrrrrm. Where the Bioship is damaged by a Disrupter? You're a dishonest fuck! Every peice of evidence shows that was a shipboard weapon.

*sigh* You see? This is what I mean about your semi-retarded state and being completely unfamilar with what you're talking about. I was not referring to that, which I agree was caused by a shipboard weapon system. I was referring to Seven of Nine's display that clearly indicated she had a weapon attached to her forearm.

Scorpion is an excellent example of how the Borg are fucked here.

I was unaware you held the Jawa's on par with Species 8472. Seriously Sir Nitram, you need a brain scan.

They were up against something that shredded them in Melee.

Yeah, after Species 8472 bioships blew Borg vessels into fragments, cut off the drone's connection the Collective, and are so strong they tear right through Borg hulls. Which of those capabilities do the Jawa's have?

Did they shoot it? Nope!

Why would they? The drones were confused, damaged, and on fragments of their previously intact vessels. I hardly expect any onboard fighting force to be in the best of shape given those circumstances.

Did they rush it? Nope! Did they even try group tactics? Nope! They just marched at it and got ripped apart.

They didn't march anywhere. This "combat" took place on fragmented pieces of Borg ships, with the drones clearly damaged, confused and unorganized. You're attempt to rationalize this as a similar scenario to a functional sphere with a intact Collective and undamaged drones engaging Jawa's is absurd.

Yes, Picard single handedly turned the tide against the Borg with his little toy gun and retook the Enterprise....oops! Oh wait, that didn't happen. Picard and his crew were so fucked over that the Borg took decks with incredible ease, and made the Starfleet crew so desperate as to decide to try and self destruct their own ship.

Yes, let's ignore that they didn't change tactics after Picard swiss cheesed two.

Yes, the Borg needed to change tactics because Picard's holodeck attack radically decreased the Borg's numbers and...oh shit! That didn't happen. Picard's attack killed two drones. I suppose you seriously expected the Borg to panick, huh?

Yes, we can certainly expect Borg drones to be a formitable fighting force when their ships are blown into fragments, their link to the Collective is severed, their enemy tears through their remaining hull fragments like butter, and Species 8472 is virtually immune to small arms fire.

Show where the Borg were using small arms fire against the Species.

They didn't. However, you assume they don't have the capability despite clear and canon evidence to the contrary, and completely ignore the situation said drones were in.

There was a pile of Borg Parts.

I suppose you expected a pile of Borg parts to fire at a member of Species 8472, huh?

When you said "you're", I certain you meant "I'm".

Very good Robert. When I say 'You' in this thread, I'm referring to you, Robert Walper.

Given you're semi(perhaps fully given your recent arguments) retarded state, confusing yourself with me wouldn't strike me as a enormous surprise.

So do Borg drones. Jawa weaponry would be nullified by transporter technology anyhow.

*Wank wank wank wank* No proof, no nothing. As usual for you.

Insults, and you ignored said proof. Concession accepted.

The Borg have armored spacecraft capable of orbitable bombardment which is completely beyond the Jawa's capability to attack or fend off. Transporters would virtually nullify any type of ground combat on the Jawa's part, (and any need on the Borg's).

*Wank wank wank wank* Going to debate or just make bald assumptions?

I make assumptions based upon evidence. You make assumptions based upon ignorance. Obviously I've won.

You're so full of shit I could twist your ears and flush your brain.

More evidence to suggest you're retarded, since you're convinced a human head can function like a toilet.

These are the Borg from FC. We know their tactics. They walk slowly forward and grapple you.

Yeah, because you're guns are useless against their personal shielding, so they can afford to. Obviously this doesn't make sense to you.

You trying to up their numbers without proof,

I've submitted evidence and calculations, which you're failed to understand or ignored. That's your problem, not mine.

imply their transporters will allow them victories they never used,

This is much like saying Obi Won cannot possibly pull a weapon out of someone's hand, despite having evidence to the contrary that a Force user can do so if so desired.

and all these other things are just the normal rantings of a rabid Trekkie. Blow me, fucktard.

You've essentially resorted entirely to insults, which suggests you're helpless against the evidence I've presented. Concession to the arguement accepted.

[Robert Walper]

Wait, people are seriously arguing for the jawas here?

Yes, they are.

If you're seriously suggesting this seems somewhat absurd, I agree.

[Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman]

Robert, should I remind you that the title of this thread is Borg drones vs Jawas?

Then it's your own stupidity for giving them a fully functional Borg sphere on hand, and asserting they will not use it, when frankly they will, particularily given the tactics they employ against an enemy.

When the title clearly says "Borg drones vs Jawas", then it's clear that what I mean is GROUND COMBAT scenario. Everybody here seems to understand that, except you, of course.

But if you keep insist that the drones will retreat to their ship, take off, then bombard the Jawa from orbit, fine then. So much for the strongest in ST against the weakest of SW....

And if you're going to be such a nitpicking bastard, I suggest you go through the thread and correct those who give the Jawa's a Sandcrawler, since the thread "title" did not say anything about them having one. I of course didn't have a problem with this, despite a Sandcrawler not being specified in the OP or thread title. However, you did specify functioning a Borg sphere, and then whine and complain when I give the Borg the capability to use it.

Why not? The Sandcrawler doesn't contradict the premise of ground combat, so they're fine by me.

Besides, the Jawas rarely found far away from their Sandcrawlers when roaming the desert. Like when they captured R2 in ANH, or responding to Anakin in AOTC.

Give us something equivalent from the Borg side, and we'll see. Ooops, I forget. They don't have it, do they? So don't blame us if ground combat capabilities of the Borg is ***PATHETIC***

Arguing that they will bombard the Jawas from orbit is admitting that the Borg need their ship

No, they don't need it, you gave it to them. If there's a conflict between the title of the thread, and the scenario it outlines, then that's your mistake.

Why did I put "it landed on Tatooine desert" even though I'm not sure a Borg Sphere can land on a planet surface or not? Why did I give the title "Borg drones vs Jawas"? It is because I wanted to write a GROUND COMBAT scenario between Borg DRONES and Jawas on Tatooine desert. The ship is there just for scenario background; as a means for the Borg to get to Tatooine on the first place. It wouldn't really matter whether the Borg land on Tatooine on their ship or just magically pop-up there without explanation. My point is: Borg drones are on Tatooine desert now and they encounter the Jawas. Hence the name of the thread. It seems everyone understand that except you.

Tell me, Robert. When your mom tell you to go to bed, does she have to write the instruction in Visual Basic?

Besides, should the Borg decides to do such foolishness, sooner or later they will get fucked. Do you think Imperial authorities on Tatooine will just sit there and drink some coffee when they're detecting some alien spaceship bombarding the planet?

That's cute. You bitch about me letting the Borg utilize a functional vessel you introduced into the scenario, and then turn right around and claim the Jawa's are going to get help from the Imperial planetary authority. What happened to your stance about Jawa's versus Borg drones only? Are Imperials now Jawas, or even supporters? Your thread title and OP are vague to say the least, so naturally interpretation is required. Like Jawa's having a Sandcrawler on hand for instance, despite not being given one in the OP or title. You didn't see me whining about that, did you? I suggest you stop trying to employ double standards to favor the Jawa's.

The Imperials don't need be supporters of Jawas. They are the AUTHORITIES on the planet.

So if you throw a brick to the window of a store, the police will just sit there and do nothing? Wow, I have to try it someday.



Dear Robert, do you remember how this "orbital bombardment" argument started?

Irrelevent. The Jawa's are outnumbered and outgunned. Borg personal shielding being effective would simply be a bonus, particularily since the Borg could revive any dead Borg if they really wanted to.

Outgunned? To be outgunned, your opponent must have guns. Ranged combat is something the Borg have never been terribly eager to show us. They.. Walk.. Slowly.. At.. You.. Until.. They.. Die.

You mean like a fully functional spacecraft capable of orbital bombardment on hand?

See? It was you who asking trouble for the first time, by saying that the Jawas are OUTGUNNED while in fact Borg drones don't have any guns whatsoever (heck, I'm not even sure if the drones have functional PENIS). Then you backpedalled by bringing "orbital bombardment" capabilites which is **IRRELEVANT** in ground combat scenario.

Tell me, Robert. Do you really believe I will write such absurd and ridiculous scenario like "a Borg Sphere hovering on Tatooine sky, encountering the Jawas from above, then trying to assimilate them; who'll win?"

But if you insist that the Borg will return to their ship then bombard them from above, fine. Then I accept your concession that the Borg (which is the strongest in ST) cannot face the Jawas (which is the weakest in SW) on ground combat so they need to return to their ship and perform orbital bombardment. CONCESSION ACCEPTED.

[Robert Walper]

When the title clearly says "Borg drones vs Jawas", then it's clear that what I mean is GROUND COMBAT scenario. Everybody here seems to understand that, except you, of course.

To humor you, we'll dispense with the Borg sphere, despite you giving it to them in the opening thread.

But if you keep insist that the drones will retreat to their ship, take off, then bombard the Jawa from orbit, fine then.

Frankly, the Borg would never have left it in the first. But since you're so ignorant of typical Borg tactics, I'll let that go.

And if you're going to be such a nitpicking bastard, I suggest you go through the thread and correct those who give the Jawa's a Sandcrawler, since the thread "title" did not say anything about them having one. I of course didn't have a problem with this, despite a Sandcrawler not being specified in the OP or thread title. However, you did specify functioning a Borg sphere, and then whine and complain when I give the Borg the capability to use it.

Why not? The Sandcrawler doesn't contradict the premise of ground combat, so they're fine by me.

Fine. We'll pretend the sphere never existed in the first place to appease your lack of foresight in writing the OP. I assume we can then just work with the potential crew complement of said sphere then. So we have potentially between 11,000(canon lower limit crew complement of Borg sphere) and 94,000(generously calculated lower limit of crew capacity of said sphere) drones wandering the desert together, each one armed with it's own energy weapon attached to it's forearm, and with personal shielding that may or may not adapt to Jawa weaponry.

Besides, the Jawas rarely found far away from their Sandcrawlers when roaming the desert. Like when they captured R2 in ANH, or responding to Anakin in AOTC.

Doesn't matter. You specified they wanted to capture these new "toys" intact, thus they're going to leave their SandCrawler to engage them with their cute little ion guns. Unless you're suggesting sitting in their crawler or running the Borg drones over will accomplish this goal.

Give us something equivalent from the Borg side, and we'll see.

Numerical and firepower superiority. The Jawa's could have a thousand of them manning their crawler, and they'd still be outnumbered 11 to 1 at the very least.

Ooops, I forget. They don't have it, do they? So don't blame us if ground combat capabilities of the Borg is ***PATHETIC***

Naw, it's merely your ability to put together a practical scenario together that is pathetic. You're attempting to backtrack by saying "I fucked up because I don't know if a sphere can land or not, so pretend it doesn't exist now". And you continue to ignore the Borg drones numerical and firepower advantage.

Why did I put "it landed on Tatooine desert" even though I'm not sure a Borg Sphere can land on a planet surface or not?

Obviously because you're a fucking idiot who didn't think the OP out very well.

Why did I give the title "Borg drones vs Jawas"?

See above.

It is because I wanted to write a GROUND COMBAT scenario between Borg DRONES and Jawas on Tatooine desert.

And failed miserably in the process by giving the Borg a functional sphere on hand, and then asserting they aren't going to and aren't allowed to use it.

The ship is there just for scenario background; as a means for the Borg to get to Tatooine on the first place.

It exists. They can use it. If you'd had a tiny fraction of sense, you'd have made sure they couldn't employ it by mentioning the sphere being damaged beyond use, or destroyed in some fashion. You didn't specify how many Borg drones there are, so I go by canon evidence and reasonable extrapolation of potential crew capacity of said sphere.

It wouldn't really matter whether the Borg land on Tatooine on their ship or just magically pop-up there without explanation.

Then you should have made them magically appear rather then giving them a sphere, and then backtracking later on and saying "Oh, but they can't use it".

My point is: Borg drones are on Tatooine desert now and they encounter the Jawas. Hence the name of the thread. It seems everyone understand that except you.

Oh, I understand exactly what you we trying to do. You were trying to setup a scenario that has the Borg engaging in tactics they'd never do, like leave their functional sphere behind them and go marching across the desert to assimilate everyone on the planet. Since the Borg wouldn't actually do this, it's just a indication of your ignorance about the Borg, and your tactical stupidity to boot(even compared to the Borg, and that's saying something).

Tell me, Robert. When your mom tell you to go to bed, does she have to write the instruction in Visual Basic?

Given your level of intelligence, I doubt your parents are beyond the tree swinging primates I see on Discovery channel. And frankly, I think primates might consider it insulting for me to associate them with you.

The Imperials don't need be supporters of Jawas. They are the AUTHORITIES on the planet.

Another Red Herring. Who gives a fuck who's the authority on Tatooine? You're attempting to introduce another party on behalf of the Jawa's, and a highly questionable authority that would "help" the Jawas for that matter.

So if you throw a brick to the window of a store, the police will just sit there and do nothing? Wow, I have to try it someday.

I didn't know you'd label the slaughter of Jawas and destruction of their Sandcrawler at the hands of Imperials as police actions. Clearly the Imperials won't give a fuck about the Jawas. And if you continue to insist upon Imperial involvement, you're admitting the Jawas are screwed without their support.

It was you who asking trouble for the first time, by saying that the Jawas are OUTGUNNED while in fact Borg drones don't have any guns whatsoever

Yeah, they do dickwad, even without a sphere. Read my fucking posts and refute them or accept them, dumbass.

(heck, I'm not even sure if the drones have functional PENIS).

But you have no problem asserting they don't have guns, despite my repeated claims and presented evidence to the contrary. And your interest in Borg penises, whether existent or not, puts forth some serious questions about your sexual cursiousity. Perhaps you want to fuck some Borg...you're certainly trying to do your best here(although failing miserably) by attempting to change the nature of the thread to favor the Jawas.

Then you backpedalled by bringing "orbital bombardment" capabilites which is **IRRELEVANT** in ground combat scenario.

Ah, so you believe orbital bombardment cannot be used in conjunction with ground combat operations, particularily the highly focused bombardment witnessed in First Contact by said sphere.

Tell me, Robert. Do you really believe I will write such absurd and ridiculous scenario like "a Borg Sphere hovering on Tatooine sky, encountering the Jawas from above, then trying to assimilate them; who'll win?"

Of course not. Because you know the Jawas would be fucked, so instead you make the Borg land on Tatooine with their sphere, abandon it and go marching around the desert looking for targets to assimilate despite their observed tactics not even remotely resembling such.

But if you insist that the Borg will return to their ship then bombard them from above, fine.

Given the very vague nature of your thread, there is no reason to assume the Borg would completely abandon their sphere when it would give them an enormous advantage in any ground combat scenario.

Then I accept your concession that the Borg (which is the strongest in ST) cannot face the Jawas (which is the weakest in SW) on ground combat

Oh, they can. They just wouldn't bother when they have a sphere onhand. You specified one existed, remember? And since I said I'm humor you, we'll pretend the sphere doesn't exist and the crew complement simply does. In which case the Borg still vastly outgun and outnumber the Jawas by a very large margin. And since the Jawas are so stupid as to march outside against a massive army of unknown hostiles, I give the Jawas a couple of minutes before they are either slaughtered or assimilated. Particularily since they are interested in capturing these unknowns "alive".

[Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman]

Oh, I understand exactly what you we trying to do. You were trying to setup a scenario that has the Borg engaging in tactics they'd never do, like leave their functional sphere behind them and go marching across the desert to assimilate everyone on the planet. Since the Borg wouldn't actually do this, it's just a indication of your ignorance about the Borg, and your tactical stupidity to boot(even compared to the Borg, and that's saying something).

The scenario implies that the drones are wandering on the desert when they meet the Jawa. In order to have any interest to capture the drones, the Jawas have to see the drones first. If you don't like what the scenario implies, it doesn't mean you have to hurl your lunch at the computer screen like the primate you are.

Given your level of intelligence, I doubt your parents are beyond the tree swinging primates I see on Discovery channel. And frankly, I think primates might consider it insulting for me to associate them with you.

Given your tenacity in defending the Borg, I won't be shocked if it turns out that your parents are Borg drones... Oh, wait; Borg don't have sex, do they? Maybe you're the latest result of their assimilation.

The Imperials don't need be supporters of Jawas. They are the AUTHORITIES on the planet.

Another Red Herring. Who gives a fuck who's the authority on Tatooine? You're attempting to introduce another party on behalf of the Jawa's, and a highly questionable authority that would "help" the Jawas for that matter.

So if you throw a brick to the window of a store, the police will just sit there and do nothing? Wow, I have to try it someday.

I didn't know you'd label the slaughter of Jawas and destruction of their Sandcrawler at the hands of Imperials as police actions. Clearly the Imperials won't give a fuck about the Jawas. And if you continue to insist upon Imperial involvement, you're admitting the Jawas are screwed without their support.

I didn't know you'd label orbital bombardment as something will be ignored by **any** planetary authority. Maybe when they put **you**[/i] in charge, such idiocity will certainly happen.

It was you who asking trouble for the first time, by saying that the Jawas are OUTGUNNED while in fact Borg drones don't have any guns whatsoever

Yeah, they do dickwad, even without a sphere. Read my fucking posts and refute them or accept them, dumbass.

Yeah. Sure. Like when they were firing wildly at the E-E crews at First Contact? Oh, wait.... It never happened, did it?

(heck, I'm not even sure if the drones have functional PENIS).

But you have no problem asserting they don't have guns, despite my repeated claims and presented evidence to the contrary. And your interest in Borg penises, whether existent or not, puts forth some serious questions about your sexual cursiousity. Perhaps you want to fuck some Borg...

Hey, I'm not the one with the Borg-loving sig.

Then you backpedalled by bringing "orbital bombardment" capabilites which is **IRRELEVANT** in ground combat scenario.

Ah, so you believe orbital bombardment cannot be used in conjunction with ground combat operations, particularily the highly focused bombardment witnessed in First Contact by said sphere.

Maybe because the thread is named "Borg FUCKING **DRONES** vs Jawas"? Don't blame me if you don't like the idea of Borg drones duke it out with some party who have ranged weapons without orbital support.

Anyway, is "orbital bombardment be used in conjunction with ground combat operations" a usual tactic of the Borg? Oh, sure, like they did it in First Contact.....

.....ummm..... waidda minute. WHAT ground combat operations?

Tell me, Robert. Do you really believe I will write such absurd and ridiculous scenario like "a Borg Sphere hovering on Tatooine sky, encountering the Jawas from above, then trying to assimilate them; who'll win?"

Of course not. Because you know the Jawas would be fucked, so instead you make the Borg land on Tatooine with their sphere, abandon it and go marching around the desert looking for targets to assimilate despite their observed tactics not even remotely resembling such.

It **is** implied in the scenario, because the goal is to discuss ground combat ability of **DRONES** against the Jawas.

Oh, by the way, WHAT observed tactics? Have we seen any drones marooned in unknown planet and keep staying in their ship?

Then I accept your concession that the Borg (which is the strongest in ST) cannot face the Jawas (which is the weakest in SW) on ground combat

Oh, they can. They just wouldn't bother when they have a sphere onhand. You specified one existed, remember? And since I said I'm humor you, we'll pretend the sphere doesn't exist and the crew complement simply does. In which case the Borg still vastly outgun and outnumber the Jawas by a very large margin.

Ah, you still masturbating with your fantasy that the Borg suddenly have long-ranged weapons.

Face it: without the sphere, the drones are FUCKED.

And since the Jawas are so stupid as to march outside against a massive army of unknown hostiles, I give the Jawas a couple of minutes before they are either slaughtered or assimilated. Particularily since they are interested in capturing these unknowns "alive".

So far, those kind of stupidity (marching against unknown hostiles) has been exhibited by the drones, not the Jawas.

[Darth Fanboy]

Then you've obviously decided to totally disregard and/or ignore all my posts which present evidence in the form of epsiode names that back up my claims.

I hate to beat the same drum Nitram's been beating on but you haven't presented anyting resembling evidence.

When my credibility in your eyes concerns me, I'll be sure to let you know.

If it didn't why do you persist in this debate then?

Similar to how you've ignored it's not an advantage since the Borg have personal weaponry on their forearms. You've also ignored my points on how transporters would nullify any said slug throwers since the OP gave the Borg an sphere, which is a enormous advantage.

What, the Borg are going to beam the ammunition out of the slugthorwers? When have they demonstrated this ability or tactic before? And do educate me on the use of Borg Firearms, because the only Borg i've seen use firearms weren't even part of the damn collective anymore.

Please elaborate on this since I recall no such behavior on my part.

It seems to be beyond your capacity to scroll back through the thread and look at the example i've given you. Then again if its beyond your ability to pull your own head out your ass this is not surprising.

[Robert Walper]

Well, after reading the last two posts there, I feel more than confident enough to declare victory. Borg versus Jawas as layed out in the OP clearly has Jawas outnumbered and outgunned. Even later attempts to alter OP by removing Borg vessel from Borg capabilities in no way helps the Jawas.

The Borg had been given orbital bombardment capability. This advantage naturally upset some people since clearly this was a pathetic attempt to try and make a Borg bashing thread. The Borg didn't even need the sphere in any case, it was just a bonus by the thread starter who lacked foresight(and any practical scenario construction to boot).

The Borg have numerical superiority as clearly shown by episode reference and lower limit calculations submitted by myself of said sphere.

Borg drones clearly have firearms, despite impressively stubborn actions by those here to stick their fingers in their ears, close their eyes and chant "No they don't! No they dont'! No they don't!"

SirNitram: Concession accepted.
Darth Fanboy: Concession accepted.
Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman: Concession accepted.

For any addititional readers concerned, read the entire thread and make your own judgements. Any further posts of a intelligent nature, I'll be happy to response to.

[SirNitram]

SirNitram: Concession accepted

Your fanboyism, double standards, and retarded failure to debate have been noted, little boy. Fuck off and stop with the self-declared victories. Then again, after your pitiful grasp of post-AI economics, I shouldn't be surprised you have no grasp of this either. Good day.

[Sr.mal]

Isn't the tactic of repeating the same bullshit over and over ad nauseum one of RSA. Isn't also delaring victory when it is clear that you're full of shit, a tactic of his?

It is OBVIOUS that the Jawas would rape the borg. Even IF the borg had their ship, it would mean nothing. The Jawas could hide in a cave, or their sandcrawler and be perfectly safe from the bombardment, since it has been show to be weaker then trhowing rocks from orbit.

The borg collectice has NEVER used ranged weapons on their drones, EVER. Deal with it and stop puting your fingers in your ears and going "Yes they do, yes they do, yes they do." The borg have always been shown to be intergalactic zombies. Hell, the zombies in Geroge Romero's movies have been shown to use the SAME tatics of the borg. Hey lets shamble towards those guys with guns, who care how many of us die again, as long as we get a nice tasty meal.

The only concession should be from Walpner, who, despite being trounced, refuses to give up a losing argument.

[Embracer Of Darkness]

I just read through this thread, and at the risk of being completely bombarded with flames...

I agree with Walper.

The opening post said that the Borg have a sphere, so why take it away now? Oh yeah, because it helps them, and you're all so biased against the Borg (they're lame, but there's no need for this bias.) Walper also provided on-screen evidence of Borg using personal ranged energy weaponry, you dismissed his evidence in an immature fashion without even trying to actually refute it.

There was more, but I'm really too tired to comment or I would've made a lengthy post with quotes and everything. I've made my point, Walper has backed up almost all of his arguments, if not all of them, but you lot just won't have it. You lot also accused Walper of "fanboyism", but if dismissing his on-screen and in-dialogue evidence to defend *Jawas* isn't fanboyism, I don't know what the fuck is.

[Ghost Rider]

The big point ...that the original Post didn't say is whether or not is the Sphere SPACE WORTHY. It said it landed...nothing about it hanging out in orbit or capable of doing such.

This is something Robert presumes.

So until that time one can confirm that the original poster was inclined that the Borg have a Space worthy or even flight worthy vessel, throwing this in is the height or persumption.

And Embracer...it would be best to say WHY you agree (especially since you read the first post and it says nothing aboput an orbiting Sphere)

And also what personal long ranged weapons...please which episode...since in BoBW, FC, I hugh and so on(in fact the only episode was Descent)

So quite literally either contribute something and stop going "Quiet, rabid warsies"

[Embracer Of Darkness]

The big point ...that the original Post didn't say is whether or not is the Sphere SPACE WORTHY. It said it landed...nothing about it hanging out in orbit or capable of doing such.

"It's broken, the opening post never said it was working, so it must be broken! Nyer nyer". That's just another assumption, but you're right, you can't simply assume it's working either.

So until that time one can confirm that the original poster was inclined that the Borg have a Space worthy or even flight worthy vessel, throwing this in is the height or persumption.

Throwing it in that it's not functioning is also a presumption, no? Also, I'd like to say... It's all well and good asking the topic starter if the sphere is functioning or not, but he's totally pro-Jawa in this topic, and will more than likely say it's not functional.

And Embracer...it would be best to say WHY you agree (especially since you read the first post and it says nothing aboput an orbiting Sphere)

As I said, I'm very tired, but I made my point clear. I said that I agree because Walper backed up his stuff with visuals and dialogue. You're right, the quote didn't say anything about an orbiting sphere, but there is a sphere, and it wasn't said wether it was damaged or not, how much it was damaged, wether it was regenerating, etc.

And also what personal long ranged weapons...please which episode...since in BoBW, FC, I hugh and so on(in fact the only episode was Descent)

Walper already gave some episodes with drones using personal weapons.

So quite literally either contribute something and stop going "Quiet, rabid warsies"

Why do I always seem to come off as some Trek side fanatic? I love Star Wars, I'm not calling anyone a "Warsie", I just think that the Borg could beat the Jawas in this scenario. It's not like we're saying Borg Vs. Empire, that's just stupid, but for the reasons Walper said, I think the Jawas would go down.

[Connor MacLeod]

It appears that Mr Walper has ignored a few facts established in the original OP:

Due to some <insert technobabble> in space-time continuum, the Borg Sphere in First Contact didn’t make it to Earth. Instead, it landed on Tatooine desert.

Obviously, its on the ground. Not crashed, but not in orbit either.

The Borg eventually know they’re on the wrong planet, but decide to assimilate it anyway. So they’re going to assimilate everybody until all inhabitants become Borg.

A clear indication that the Borg intend to assimilate the planet. Which means that canonically, they *must* depart the ship in order to try to begin assimilation. Even I have watched enough Trek to know this is canon fact. So clearly, this means they are not only NOT going to do anything to kill the Jawas immediately (if ever), they are going to clearly try to get close and stick nanoprobes in them.

And then, they encounter a group of Jawas. Unfortunately, the Jawas are on the verge of bankruptcy, so they are desperately willing to capture *any* droid they meet to sell. After hearing the Borg’s speech about assimilation, they decide that Borg drones can make it to the market as "toys for little girls" (like the doll saying ‘Mama’ when you pull the string). So they decide to capture the drones intact (like they captured R2 in ANH).

Yet again, the details in the intial op quite *CLEARLY* indicate that the Borg are outside the ship, announcing their intention to assimilate the Jawas, while the Jawas SEE the Borg and decide to try to capture them. Hell, the poll even LISTS Borg Jawas as an option - how the hell did they get assimilated from orbit?

Clearly, the Borg are not onboard their ship when this begins.

Moreover, Mr Walper has diverted the conversation with his little nitpicks about whether the Borg Sphere qualifies as "having guns", when in fact the comparison was about the ionization blasters (EG personal weapons) the Jawas carry! While *technically* true that the borg have ship mounted GUNS, it is rather obvious they have not demonstrated any sort of ranged personal weapons - which despite Mr Walpers continued nitpicking, remains the fact debated. (The Sandcrawler does not mount any weapons - I guess by his logic we should assume its the JAWAS that are unarmed, huh? )

It should also be noted that his continued ranting about the "shipboard guns" is a rather obvious misdirection of the discussion from the original points he was getting his ass kicked on (about the Jawa's guns being useless due to adaption, and his claim about numbers baseds on his "conservative" estimates of internal volume - I like how he ignores things like just how much space internal equipment like weapons, powerplant, shields, engines, computers, etc. would take.)

Further, even if they possess ship mounted weapons, they are not going to use them on the Jawas as the OP clearly indicates an intention to assimilate! This means not killing them. (I'm certain Mr Walper will start in about how the Borg will simply transport the Jawas onboard en-masse and assimilate them from the safety of orbit, neglecting how they are to get onboard their ship in the first place and the unliklihood that the Jawas are goign to remain in place for this.) Yet another clever misdirection from the early part of the discussion

In short, Mr Walper has been engaging in a literal sandstorm of nitpicks, coupled with attempted misdirections and constant alterations of his stance (and mind) in an attempt at evasion.
If this streak of irrationality and dishonesty persists in other discussions where his pet subject loses, methinks Mr Walper will be in for a hard time here.

[Embracer Of Darkness]

A clear indication that the Borg intend to assimilate the planet. Which means that canonically, they *must* depart the ship in order to try to begin assimilation.

I, for one, would've assumed they'd use transporters. Like they do alot of the time.

this means they are not only NOT going to do anything to kill the Jawas immediately (if ever), they are going to clearly try to get close and stick nanoprobes in them

Erm, Walper already gave the name of an episode or two showing Borg using personal beam weapons which have caused the "victim" to be stunned.

Yet again, the details in the intial op quite *CLEARLY* indicate that the Borg are outside the ship,

The opening post did not say, at all, that the Borg are outside the ship. Chances are they might've sent a couple to "investigate" the Jawa and their sand crawler or whatever, but there would've been thousands of Borg still on the ship. We've never seen them evacuate, and we still don't know wether the ship is capable of function or not.

it is rather obvious they have not demonstrated any sort of ranged personal weapons - which despite Mr Walpers continued nitpicking, remains the fact debated.

Walper gave episode names showing Borg using personal ranged energy weaponry which stunned and killed opponents.

they are not going to use them on the Jawas as the OP clearly indicates an intention to assimilate! This means not killing them.

We've seen a Borg drone, Seven, use an energy weapon which stuns. Walper quoted the episode.

(I'm certain Mr Walper will start in about how the Borg will simply transport the Jawas onboard en-masse and assimilate them from the safety of orbit

Even if the ship isn't in orbit, we don't know how functional it is. The ship could still have operational transporters, in which case Walper would be right in saying this, as it's a defining Borg tactic.

Mr Walper has been engaging in a literal sandstorm of nitpicks, coupled with attempted misdirections and constant alterations of his stance (and mind) in an attempt at evasion

By describing typical Borg tactics, by pointing out holes in the opening post, and by quoting on-screen and in-dialogue evidence? Hardly.

If this streak of irrationality and dishonesty persists in other discussions where his pet subject loses, methinks Mr Walper will be in for a hard time here

I don't know why he's continued this far seeing as people keep ignorantly throwing out his evidence without actually refuting it. If I were him I wouldn't bother, I'm no builder, so I don't try taking down walls of ignorance.

[Connor MacLeod]

*tsk*

STTNG "Descent": A group of rogue Borg engage Enterpise crewmembers, killing a few of them. They are firing energy pulses from their forearms, which I'm desperately hoping you understand implies they have anti-personnel weaponry. These weapons killed a couple of said Enterprise crewmembers.

Note your own admission they are "Rogue" Borg - evidenced by their use of personal weapons and a desire to kill. If I remember TNG correctly, these are the Borg Lore is in control of, and are not apart of the collective.

STTNG "Scorpion": Chakotay and security officers enter the cargo bay which they just learned a group of Borg beamed onto their vessel from the destroyed Borg cube. Upon entering the cargo bay, Seven of Nine(as a Borg, I hope you know what a Borg actually is) turns around a corner and has her right armed raised identically to Borg mentioned in STTNG "Descent". She's clearly threatening Chakotay and his group with her forearm weapon. Given you're semi-retarded state, I'll understand if you try to suggest she was only planning to flip them the bird. But unfortunately, in that case I've have to dismiss you're opinion as having no validity in this thread.

7 of 9 is not apart of the collective, and capable of independent, rational thought. Again, totally irrelevant.

STTNG "Survival Instinct": A Borg sphere containing Borg, including Seven of Nine(again as a Borg) crashes upon a planet. Contact with the Collective is cut off, and Seven and other several Borg survivors get together and start to build a communication beacon to recontact the Collective. During this time, they start to exhibit their orginal personalities and try to escape, while also disabling the communication beacon they were working on. Since Seven of Nine was assimilated as a youth, the Collective is all she knows. So in fear she tracks down the other Borg, stuns them, and reassimilates them into a mini-collective so the can re-contact the Collective. Let me be very clear on this, we literately see Seven of Nine raise her right arm(I'm sure you're going to assume this is coincidence with given example if STVOY "Scorpion") and fire a green energy beam that stuns her fellow Borg comrades. Given the Borg are typically immune to normal stun settings(ref: STTNG "Q Who?"), this probably was a abnormally high stun setting.

Again, borg not apart of the collective and capable of independent thought. They certainly never employ these things (if they even have them while part of the collective!) in the majority of combats. IE these are exceptions, not rules.

Clearly its another case of nitpicking and introducing facts totally irrelevant to the discussion. Mr Walper should realize that blind, rabid fanwanking is not conducive to rational analysis.

[Connor MacLeod]

I, for one, would've assumed they'd use transporters. Like they do alot of the time.

Err. The OP clearly states they give their little announcement. How the hell are the JAWAS to hear this if not in person? little loudspeakers on the Borg Sphere?

Erm, Walper already gave the name of an episode or two showing Borg using personal beam weapons which have caused the "victim" to be stunned.

Involving Borg not apart of the collective. Do you deny that he admitted that by his own damned evidence? Or are you saying the FC Borg were also Rogue/not part of the collective?

The opening post did not say, at all, that the Borg are outside the ship. Chances are they might've sent a couple to "investigate" the Jawa and their sand crawler or whatever, but there would've been thousands of Borg still on the ship. We've never seen them evacuate, and we still don't know wether the ship is capable of function or not.

Explain to me how they give the "assimilation" line then to the Jawas. Or for that matter, how the Jawas manage to look at the Borg and confuse them for droids (and decide to capture them, for that matter.)

Walper gave episode names showing Borg using personal ranged energy weaponry which stunned and killed opponents.

Which that Borg apart of the collective never use. I already pointed out his examples involve Borg not apart of the Collective.

We've seen a Borg drone, Seven, use an energy weapon which stuns. Walper quoted the episode.

Oh yes, and Seven of Nine happens to be apart of the collective- oh wait...

Even if the ship isn't in orbit, we don't know how functional it is. The ship could still have operational transporters, in which case Walper would be right in saying this, as it's a defining Borg tactic.

Beaming themselves over, maybe. But not beaming their victims over, insofar as I am aware. And in any case, how the hell are they going to do this when they are out and giving their spiel in plain sight to the Jawas? Borg can't assimilate at a distance.

By describing typical Borg tactics, by pointing out holes in the opening post, and by quoting on-screen and in-dialogue evidence? Hardly.

Describing tactics that I or noone else appears toh ave heard of (OH MY GOD ITS A GIANT ANTI-BORG CONSPIRACY!) and quoting evidence that has little bearing to the Borg proper? Obviously your definition of what constitutes "rational analysis" differs from what the definition realistically is.

I don't know why he's continued this far seeing as people keep ignorantly throwing out his evidence without actually refuting it. If I were him I wouldn't bother, I'm no builder, so I don't try taking down walls of ignorance.

It *has* been refuted since page one. Mr Walper has not only been nitpicking the opposition to death, he has contantly changed his tactics and stance when it became clear he was getting his ass kicked. He is now engaging in "Wall of Ignorance" tactics in addition. These *ARE* signs of deliberate and irrational fanaticism.

[Embracer Of Darkness]

STTNG "Descent": A group of rogue Borg engage Enterpise crewmembers, killing a few of them. They are firing energy pulses from their forearms, which I'm desperately hoping you understand implies they have anti-personnel weaponry. These weapons killed a couple of said Enterprise crewmembers.

Note your own admission they are "Rogue" Borg - evidenced by their use of personal weapons and a desire to kill. If I remember TNG correctly, these are the Borg Lore is in control of, and are not apart of the collective.

I actually agree with you on this one. The Borg were rogue, and probably added those weapons afterward.

STTNG "Scorpion": Chakotay and security officers enter the cargo bay which they just learned a group of Borg beamed onto their vessel from the destroyed Borg cube. Upon entering the cargo bay, Seven of Nine(as a Borg, I hope you know what a Borg actually is) turns around a corner and has her right armed raised identically to Borg mentioned in STTNG "Descent". She's clearly threatening Chakotay and his group with her forearm weapon. Given you're semi-retarded state, I'll understand if you try to suggest she was only planning to flip them the bird. But unfortunately, in that case I've have to dismiss you're opinion as having no validity in this thread.

7 of 9 is not apart of the collective, and capable of independent, rational thought. Again, totally irrelevant.

Whiskey Tango Foxtrot! Part of the collective or not we saw that she, a Borg drone, had a personal weapon!

STTNG "Survival Instinct": A Borg sphere containing Borg, including Seven of Nine(again as a Borg) crashes upon a planet. Contact with the Collective is cut off, and Seven and other several Borg survivors get together and start to build a communication beacon to recontact the Collective. During this time, they start to exhibit their orginal personalities and try to escape, while also disabling the communication beacon they were working on. Since Seven of Nine was assimilated as a youth, the Collective is all she knows. So in fear she tracks down the other Borg, stuns them, and reassimilates them into a mini-collective so the can re-contact the Collective. Let me be very clear on this, we literately see Seven of Nine raise her right arm(I'm sure you're going to assume this is coincidence with given example if STVOY "Scorpion") and fire a green energy beam that stuns her fellow Borg comrades. Given the Borg are typically immune to normal stun settings(ref: STTNG "Q Who?"), this probably was a abnormally high stun setting.

Again, borg not apart of the collective and capable of independent thought. They certainly never employ these things (if they even have them while part of the collective!) in the majority of combats. IE these are exceptions, not rules.

No, it just shows again that a Borg drone had a personal weapon. Just because the Borg don't use them in every conventional battle doesn't mean that they don't have them, we've seen proof that they have them. Also, think about this, the Borg in this scenario are on a planet facing an enemy using ion cannons which take out technology, they might adapt their tactics and think "okay, they have something that can hurt us, it's about time we used our guns."

Clearly its another case of nitpicking and introducing facts totally irrelevant to the discussion. Mr Walper should realize that blind, rabid fanwanking is not conducive to rational analysis.

No, those episodes prove that Borg have personal weapons, wether they use them constantly or not.

[Ghost Rider]

You do know Walper's only example of a possible weapon is an inference.

He literally went from Descent's rogue Borg to Seven of Nine displaying a similar device.

Amazing his only other example was that she used it against other Borg. Never have they used this mythical weapon against ANYONE else.

And this constitutes as proof?

[Connor MacLeod]

Whiskey Tango Foxtrot! Part of the collective or not we saw that she, a Borg drone, had a personal weapon!

After joining the Voyager crew, if I read the quote correctly. And even if she possessed this while still part of the collective this either is an exception (IE not all Borg possess them) or the Borg are dumb enough to not employ weapons they equip on their own shoulders when their use should be obvious. Either way, its not going to be a factor against the Jawas unless these Borg are separated from the Collective.

No, it just shows again that a Borg drone had a personal weapon. Just because the Borg don't use them in every conventional battle doesn't mean that they don't have them, we've seen proof that they have them. Also, think about this, the Borg in this scenario are on a planet facing an enemy using ion cannons which take out technology, they might adapt their tactics and think "okay, they have something that can hurt us, it's about time we used our guns."

Given the quote, it suggests time passes between the time they crash and the time they gain back their personalities. Aside from the points I mentioned above, is it absolutely certain that she HAD the weapon as part of her when they originally crashed? (Again, not that it matters. Even if she has a weapon this does not bear one iota on the Jawa discussion, unless Mr Walper can show Borg in the collective *using* the weapons.)

No, those episodes prove that Borg have personal weapons, wether they use them constantly or not.

Except that it has no bearing whatsoever on the debate. Its simply a pointless nitpicking evasion on his part. Or are you going to continue to insist that this *is* relevant to the discussion?

[Embracer Of Darkness]

Err. The OP clearly states they give their little announcement. How the hell are the JAWAS to hear this if not in person? little loudspeakers on the Borg Sphere?

Explain to me how they give the "assimilation" line then to the Jawas. Or for that matter, how the Jawas manage to look at the Borg and confuse them for droids (and decide to capture them, for that matter.)

I already said, and I quote; "Chances are they might've sent a couple to "investigate" the Jawa and their sand crawler or whatever, but there would've been thousands of Borg still on the ship." We've seen the Borg talk through a drone, or a handful of drones, before.

Erm, Walper already gave the name of an episode or two showing Borg using personal beam weapons which have caused the "victim" to be stunned.

Involving Borg not apart of the collective. Do you deny that he admitted that by his own damned evidence? Or are you saying the FC Borg were also Rogue/not part of the collective?

I already agreed with you that rogue Borg don't count, as they could've added the weapons themselves at a later date.

Walper gave episode names showing Borg using personal ranged energy weaponry which stunned and killed opponents.

Which that Borg apart of the collective never use. I already pointed out his examples involve Borg not apart of the Collective.

We don't see ships from Star Wars going around BDZing planets, but we know they can. What's your point? We've seen evidence of Borg having personal weaponry, wether they constantly use them or not is irrelevent.

We've seen a Borg drone, Seven, use an energy weapon which stuns. Walper quoted the episode.

Oh yes, and Seven of Nine happens to be apart of the collective- oh wait...

It's true that Seven was disconnected from the hive mind for the majority of that episode, but are you saying that she somehow built that weapon and incorporated it into her own body in the short time after her connection was severed? Thought not, she ovbviously had it before, as we've seen it in other episodes.

Even if the ship isn't in orbit, we don't know how functional it is. The ship could still have operational transporters, in which case Walper would be right in saying this, as it's a defining Borg tactic.

Beaming themselves over, maybe. But not beaming their victims over, insofar as I am aware.

We've seen that it's a standard Borg strategy to beam over victims then shove them onto tables and assimilate them either surgically or "vampire" fashion. I can't be arsed finding an episode name, because it's so blatantly obvious, but Walper probably already knows some episode names so ask him to quote you.

Describing tactics that I or noone else appears toh ave heard of (OH MY GOD ITS A GIANT ANTI-BORG CONSPIRACY!) and quoting evidence that has little bearing to the Borg proper? Obviously your definition of what constitutes "rational analysis" differs from what the definition realistically is.

So, because we don't see the Borg use their personal weapons against Starfleet personell (actually, Seven threatened to once, Walper quoted the episode) they simply don't? That's a hasty generalisation.

It *has* been refuted since page one. Mr Walper has not only been nitpicking the opposition to death, he has contantly changed his tactics and stance when it became clear he was getting his ass kicked. He is now engaging in "Wall of Ignorance" tactics in addition. These *ARE* signs of deliberate and irrational fanaticism.

Walper has described typical Borg tactics and used on-screen evidence to back up anything not so typical (ie. personal weapons). I don't see the problem, except that you are in denial in some way.

[Embracer Of Darkness]

Whiskey Tango Foxtrot! Part of the collective or not we saw that she, a Borg drone, had a personal weapon!

After joining the Voyager crew, if I read the quote correctly. And even if she possessed this while still part of the collective this either is an exception (IE not all Borg possess them) or the Borg are dumb enough to not employ weapons they equip on their own shoulders when their use should be obvious. Either way, its not going to be a factor against the Jawas unless these Borg are separated from the Collective.

Actually, one of the episodes he quoted (Seven stunning the other drones) was a memory from before Seven was a member of Voyager's crew.

No, it just shows again that a Borg drone had a personal weapon. Just because the Borg don't use them in every conventional battle doesn't mean that they don't have them, we've seen proof that they have them. Also, think about this, the Borg in this scenario are on a planet facing an enemy using ion cannons which take out technology, they might adapt their tactics and think "okay, they have something that can hurt us, it's about time we used our guns."

Given the quote, it suggests time passes between the time they crash and the time they gain back their personalities. Aside from the points I mentioned above, is it absolutely certain that she HAD the weapon as part of her when they originally crashed? (Again, not that it matters. Even if she has a weapon this does not bear one iota on the Jawa discussion, unless Mr Walper can show Borg in the collective *using* the weapons.)

I think Seven stated in the episode that they had been severed from the collective as soon as they had crashed, or it was a couple of hours later. Either way, how could Seven construct a weapon capable of stunning Borg drones, and incorporate it into her body so that she thinks and it fires, with no materials??? They crashed in a jungle, you say that Walper is nitpicking, but you're saying "maybe she made the weapon out of nothing and made it a part of herself in a couple of hours tops".

Except that it has no bearing whatsoever on the debate. Its simply a pointless nitpicking evasion on his part. Or are you going to continue to insist that this *is* relevant to the discussion?

It is relevent, because we've seen that drones can carry personal weapons.

No, those episodes prove that Borg have personal weapons, wether they use them constantly or not.

Except that it has no bearing whatsoever on the debate. Its simply a pointless nitpicking evasion on his part. Or are you going to continue to insist that this *is* relevant to the discussion?[/quote]