Yet another "I'm not a Trekkie, but ..." E-mail

nightmare · Post by **nightmare** » 2003-12-14 06:34am

I retract my statement that the turret to the down-right of the proposed door have no barrels. I've looked at this picture before, but I've never before seen any; I've got a better monitor now, and when I looked closer, I found two barrels.

That makes 2x4 barrels to the right, a 1x3 smaller to the left and a 1x2 even smaller in the middle, and 3x2s above the door, most likely a light turbolasers. The others are probably all in the medium range in varying sizes.

Most of the barrels seem to be unable to swivel, only elevate. I presume those are only for broadsides, and any side correction is done by off-axis firing which we know can be done. The 1x2 turret is perfectly set to protect what seem to be a door; this is the only turret that can obviously swivel as well as elevate, to cover the whole area except below the turret itself. This leads credence to the theory that it is indeed a door.

There's also a number of other features that might be weapons, for example the 8 large tubes on the right. There's also 1x4 tiny tubes to the right, 3 possible twin turrets below the trench, a large-caliber 1x2 barrel and a tiny 1x2 turret to the left. These are however speculation on my part. But there's no doubt that the statement "bristling with weapons" is true.

Just check out the bow with 3x4 suspicious-looking devices, 2x2 light turrets, and more suspicious things on the port side, including a 1x4.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2003-12-14 10:38am

nightmare wrote:
Vympel wrote:Yeah, they do look like turrets now- they have a very huge range of fire it seems (designed to fire straight up as well looks like). Looks like they can really defend themselves from behind with them.

But are they MTLs? When we say MTLs, are we thinking of weapons the size of the Acclamator's main guns? Becuase the Acclamator ones are bigger than that, surely ...
Dunno, but I'm interested. I scale these turrets to 7,84 m lenght with barrels included with a 20% margin of error downward. Any picture of the Acclamator to compare with? There's more turrets of what seem to be similar size in the trench at a casual glance, plus larger weapons than these. For example in this picture.

What's the Barrel Diameter? I'd scale it myself, but my new computrer will almost never display images so I can't do scaling anymore.

nightmare · Post by **nightmare** » 2003-12-14 01:21pm

Ender wrote:What's the Barrel Diameter? I'd scale it myself, but my new computrer will almost never display images so I can't do scaling anymore.

60.5 cm with a margin of error between 64 to 56. Sorry, it's impossible to be more precsie than that with the given material. I only have a few measly pixels to work with. I'm working with the third we see in the 078 picture, and correlated the result with the first which is a bit too blurry to be the model for scaling and the results line up nicely.

IceHawk-151 · Post by **IceHawk-151** » 2003-12-14 04:16pm

Quick thank you to Ender and Poe for the links and the estimate.

About my statement about Photon/Quantum Torpedo firepower and the firing capabilities of the Galaxy-class vessels…

First of all I would like someone to show me the quote where I stated my torpedo firepower numbers were derived from the Technical manuals. By making the assumption that I accept the TMs, coupled with the continued statements that I am completely disregarding EU figures (which has been reiterated by Wong multiple times now) my statements are being disregarded as foolish out of hand.

My conclusion for Torpedo yields does come from the Pegasus scenario. I find it ironic that posters seems to be accusing me of low balling the Wars figures, when even Wong himself is low balling the Pegasus figures.

The only way we get kiloton level Photon torpedoes is if we assume various things. We must assume the Enterprise new the exact location of the Pegasus, and was going to fire only enough torpedoes to reach and destroy the vessel. However, the Enterprise did not know the exact location of the Pegasus. It was stated earlier in the episode that the Enterprise’s sensors were being affected, and sensor scans would take slightly longer than usual. The fact that the Pegasus was only detected when the Enterprise was in close proximity of its asteroid, and the fact that it was not discovered the vessel was phased into the rock structure, until the Enterprise was in close proximity to the vessel are other indications that the ship’s sensors were not at top efficiency. Also, when the Enterprise entered the asteroid it was searching for the Pegasus. Though they did not know the exact location of the vessel, they did know its general location.

To derive firepower figures we can make 1 of 3 assumptions.
It would take “most of our photon torpedoes” to …
1) Simply dig down to and destroy the Pegasus. (Only possible with exact location)
2) Vaporize the entire asteroid to destroy the Pegasus. (Definite over-kill)
3) Vaporize a small volume of the asteroid where the Pegasus has been identified as being.
The first possibility would give us Kiloton level torpedoes, the second Gigaton level, and the third megaton level.

Taking into account that the Enterprise did not appear to have sensors as fine-tuned as in other situations, I took into account the third option. If it were possible for the Enterprise to vaporize 1 to ½ percent of the asteroid the Photon Torpedoes would have firepower ranged around 50 MT. That would require the Enterprise to vaporize a cylinder 3 kilometers deep and some 600 to 300 meters in diameter. Seeing as how it may have been necessary for the Enterprise to enter the asteroid herself, I didn’t think such a diameter would be very outlandish. I’m not sure how to incorporate the open spaces within the asteroid, as some spots showed rock, and others almost completely space. Therefore, I just went with solid rock for now.
At roughly three times as powerful as a Photon torpedo (and assuming directed charges, if not numbers double) I figured Quantum torpedoes to be around 100 to 200 MT.

Ossus, I hate to say it again, but neither the Destroyer nor the Cruiser landed an HTL bolt. The Star Destroyer’s bolts can bee seen appearing behind Ackbar’s head, and the Calamari’s two bolts were seen passing before and behind the Destroyer. The fact that the Rebel HTL bolts dissipated after passing the Destroyer does not denote a hit.

Galaxy-class vessels have shown the capability to fire bursts of 10-12 Photon Torpedoes out of their fore launchers. Although the re-fire rate is not known, at best it would be one salvo a second. That would mean it would take 5 Galaxy-class vessels at least 10 seconds to kick out 600 torpedoes. Of course more time would be required due to re-load rates.

Mr. Wong, your continued use of inflammatory language would seem to be either an attempt to bait me into a flame war with you, or a simple indication that you do not wish to do anything but present me with generalizations instead of an actual debate.

Slave One’s laser cannons were stated to be in the range of Kilotons. The movies and the expanded universe books would support this. This would also place fighter weaponry 2 to 4 orders of magnitude less powerful than the smallest Turbolasers.
Slave One’s seismic charges fragmented the asteroid, they did not vaporize it. Also these weapons have never once been seen before, and appear to be unique to Fett’s weapons.
The type of torpedo fired by Slave One is also unique, as it was not the same class as the red cone shaped torpedoes of the X-Wing, or the red dagger missiles of the Millennium Falcon.
I also find it weird that a directed charge, such as the torpedo appeared to be, could detonate a couple of dozen meters behind Obi-Wan’s shieldless fighter and do little to no damage to it.

Luzifer's right hand · Post by **Luzifer's right hand** » 2003-12-14 04:44pm

I also find it weird that a directed charge, such as the torpedo appeared to be, could detonate a couple of dozen meters behind Obi-Wan’s shieldless fighter and do little to no damage to it.

there are no shock waves after an explosion in vacuum afaik, only radiation(gamma, beta, alpha, infrared, light...) and particels (neutrino, protons...), every spaceship needs shielding against this things in any case.(the hull in this case) And splitters of the weapon material(maybe vaporated in this case).

the energy of explosions needs a vehicle(gases, fluids, and solid matter[Hull of the target])

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2003-12-14 05:15pm

IceHawk-151 wrote:Quick thank you to Ender and Poe for the links and the estimate.

About my statement about Photon/Quantum Torpedo firepower and the firing capabilities of the Galaxy-class vessels…

First of all I would like someone to show me the quote where I stated my torpedo firepower numbers were derived from the Technical manuals. By making the assumption that I accept the TMs, coupled with the continued statements that I am completely disregarding EU figures (which has been reiterated by Wong multiple times now) my statements are being disregarded as foolish out of hand.

You clearly accept the TM or you would have no idea how the firepower of quantum torpedoes relates to the firepower of photon torpedoes. Moreover, your estimates have nothing to do with anything other than the TM's.

My conclusion for Torpedo yields does come from the Pegasus scenario. I find it ironic that posters seems to be accusing me of low balling the Wars figures, when even Wong himself is low balling the Pegasus figures.

The only way we get kiloton level Photon torpedoes is if we assume various things. We must assume the Enterprise new the exact location of the Pegasus, and was going to fire only enough torpedoes to reach and destroy the vessel.

Bullshit. All we have to do is calculate the total amount of energy to fragment the entire asteroid. This is not difficult.

However, the Enterprise did not know the exact location of the Pegasus. It was stated earlier in the episode that the Enterprise’s sensors were being affected, and sensor scans would take slightly longer than usual. The fact that the Pegasus was only detected when the Enterprise was in close proximity of its asteroid, and the fact that it was not discovered the vessel was phased into the rock structure, until the Enterprise was in close proximity to the vessel are other indications that the ship’s sensors were not at top efficiency. Also, when the Enterprise entered the asteroid it was searching for the Pegasus. Though they did not know the exact location of the vessel, they did know its general location.

Who cares? They only needed to fragment the entire asteroid.

To derive firepower figures we can make 1 of 3 assumptions.
It would take “most of our photon torpedoes” to …
1) Simply dig down to and destroy the Pegasus. (Only possible with exact location)
2) Vaporize the entire asteroid to destroy the Pegasus. (Definite over-kill)
3) Vaporize a small volume of the asteroid where the Pegasus has been identified as being.

And where's the option of fragmenting the asteroid, or fragmenting the small volume of the asteroid where the Pegasus was suspected to be located?

The first possibility would give us Kiloton level torpedoes, the second Gigaton level, and the third megaton level.

Really? How many torpedoes do you think the ship had? It was a hollow, 5 kilometer asteroid.

Taking into account that the Enterprise did not appear to have sensors as fine-tuned as in other situations, I took into account the third option. If it were possible for the Enterprise to vaporize 1 to ½ percent of the asteroid the Photon Torpedoes would have firepower ranged around 50 MT. That would require the Enterprise to vaporize a cylinder 3 kilometers deep and some 600 to 300 meters in diameter. Seeing as how it may have been necessary for the Enterprise to enter the asteroid herself, I didn’t think such a diameter would be very outlandish. I’m not sure how to incorporate the open spaces within the asteroid, as some spots showed rock, and others almost completely space. Therefore, I just went with solid rock for now.
At roughly three times as powerful as a Photon torpedo (and assuming directed charges, if not numbers double) I figured Quantum torpedoes to be around 100 to 200 MT.

Which you derived in a ludicrous manner by suggesting that the E-D would have had to have vaporized a significant fraction of the asteroid, rather than simply fragmenting it. Do you always make such outlandish assumptions, and gloss over more reasonable options, when you're trying to present evidence.

Ossus, I hate to say it again, but neither the Destroyer nor the Cruiser landed an HTL bolt. The Star Destroyer’s bolts can bee seen appearing behind Ackbar’s head, and the Calamari’s two bolts were seen passing before and behind the Destroyer. The fact that the Rebel HTL bolts dissipated after passing the Destroyer does not denote a hit.

Oh, yes, the massive fucking explosions which correlated precisely with the Calamari Cruiser's bolts and appeared one frame after the bolts passed the ISD were totally unrelated.

Galaxy-class vessels have shown the capability to fire bursts of 10-12 Photon Torpedoes out of their fore launchers. Although the re-fire rate is not known, at best it would be one salvo a second. That would mean it would take 5 Galaxy-class vessels at least 10 seconds to kick out 600 torpedoes. Of course more time would be required due to re-load rates.

Let me get this straight: you assume that a GCS would have needed to vaporize an entire asteroid in order to reveal and destroy one ship buried within it. You then assume that a GCS can fire a salvo of 10-12 torpedoes, even though the most it's ever been seen to deliver in one salve is half of that, and even though other incidents show a "full spread" of torpedoes being only three projectiles. You then assume that they can maintain this rate of fire for ten seconds, and that they can continue doing this for a substantial amount of time, and you assume that the massive fucking explosions appearing on the ISD ONE FRAME after an HTL bolt passes the section of the ship in question are unrelated. And you expect us to take you seriously?

Mr. Wong, your continued use of inflammatory language would seem to be either an attempt to bait me into a flame war with you, or a simple indication that you do not wish to do anything but present me with generalizations instead of an actual debate.

Slave One’s laser cannons were stated to be in the range of Kilotons. The movies and the expanded universe books would support this. This would also place fighter weaponry 2 to 4 orders of magnitude less powerful than the smallest Turbolasers.

Right. Now, scale the size of the starfighter weapons against the size of the LTL's to derive a formula that allows you to scale up to the full-size HTL's and see what sort of a figure you get for the big ISD guns.

Slave One’s seismic charges fragmented the asteroid, they did not vaporize it.

So? That's all the E-D would have needed to do. And Slave-1's weapon violently fragmented asteroids for kilometers along the plane of effect.

Also these weapons have never once been seen before, and appear to be unique to Fett’s weapons.

Oh, yes. Jango Fett doubtless has access to technology that Imperials don't have the ability to duplicate, and he can manufacture these mines without any heavy equipment (since he lives on Kamino). You violate Occam's Razor by suggesting that he was able to design and build these things on his own.

The type of torpedo fired by Slave One is also unique, as it was not the same class as the red cone shaped torpedoes of the X-Wing, or the red dagger missiles of the Millennium Falcon.

Are you honestly suggesting that a weapon used by a bounty hunter would not be available to a military force twenty years later? Are you honestly suggesting that such a weapon would have capabilities vastly in excess of torpedoes used by the Alliance and the Falcon? Are you honestly suggesting that Luke's torpedoes, which pulled off a turn requiring thousands of g's, are less advanced than a torpedo that was homing in on Obi-Wan's starship?

I also find it weird that a directed charge, such as the torpedo appeared to be, could detonate a couple of dozen meters behind Obi-Wan’s shieldless fighter and do little to no damage to it.

Obi-Wan's fighter was obviously shielded, since it was able to withstand kiloton blasts. Moreover, the torpedo would have had no ability to transfer more than a tiny fraction of its total energy to the starfighter because of the vacuum.

nightmare · Post by **nightmare** » 2003-12-14 05:21pm

IceHawk, you don't need to reply to me. I think you'll have enough with debating Mike Wong and Ossus, and I know it can be difficult to keep up with a lot of people at once. I'm just going to put in my comments.

IceHawk-151 wrote:Ossus, I hate to say it again, but neither the Destroyer nor the Cruiser landed an HTL bolt. The Star Destroyer’s bolts can bee seen appearing behind Ackbar’s head, and the Calamari’s two bolts were seen passing before and behind the Destroyer. The fact that the Rebel HTL bolts dissipated after passing the Destroyer does not denote a hit.

Isn't that another scene?

IceHawk-151 wrote:Galaxy-class vessels have shown the capability to fire bursts of 10-12 Photon Torpedoes out of their fore launchers.

Out of curiousity, where? I've never seen that as far as I can recall.

IceHawk-151 wrote:Slave One’s seismic charges fragmented the asteroid, they did not vaporize it. Also these weapons have never once been seen before, and appear to be unique to Fett’s weapons.

Yet Obi-wan recognised them instantly. I have a good idea how large that last asteroid was, do you?

IceHawk-151 wrote:The type of torpedo fired by Slave One is also unique, as it was not the same class as the red cone shaped torpedoes of the X-Wing, or the red dagger missiles of the Millennium Falcon.

It's a concussion missile, although this is a general term for a certain type of missiles, they appear to vary a lot in fabricates. I think we have too few examples to draw from to consider it truly unique.

IceHawk-151 wrote:I also find it weird that a directed charge, such as the torpedo appeared to be, could detonate a couple of dozen meters behind Obi-Wan’s shieldless fighter and do little to no damage to it.

The most obvious conclusion to me is that the actual warhead never went off as it never hit the right target, and it was the propellant or something igniting instead. We don't get any comments from the Fetts about this other than "we won't be seing him again", after watching the explosion.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2003-12-14 05:31pm

BTW, I noticed you quietly dropped a small arsenal of arguments, for example the number of MTL weapons on the ISD.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-12-14 05:34pm

I've noticed he's totally ignored the canon declaration on AOTC ICS.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2003-12-14 05:44pm

Grand Admiral Thrawn wrote:
Spanky The Dolphin wrote:Actually, Ossus, some people here (including myself) believe those "dorsal batteries" in that one image might actually be some kind of mechanical or electronic mechanism that's part of the engine baffel system...

Didn't someone identify them as turrets from a model of the KGV?

Yes, they are identical to the 2x5.5" turrets on the King George V class.

One such turret can be seen below the aft funnel

I'd just like to take this moment to credit myself with that particular discovery.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2003-12-14 06:05pm

nightmare wrote:
Ender wrote:What's the Barrel Diameter? I'd scale it myself, but my new computrer will almost never display images so I can't do scaling anymore.
60.5 cm with a margin of error between 64 to 56. Sorry, it's impossible to be more precsie than that with the given material. I only have a few measly pixels to work with. I'm working with the third we see in the 078 picture, and correlated the result with the first which is a bit too blurry to be the model for scaling and the results line up nicely.

Thank you, I've added those to the TLCP (points to sig). The short barrel indicates a low range, but the barrel is far wider then just about anything else that long, which is odd.

Grand Admiral Thrawn · Post by **Grand Admiral Thrawn** » 2003-12-14 06:12pm

IceHawk-151 wrote: Also these weapons have never once been seen before, and appear to be unique to Fett?s weapons.

Which is why Kenobi was able to quickly identify them by their name! That makes so much sense!

nightmare · Post by **nightmare** » 2003-12-14 06:25pm

Ender wrote:Thank you, I've added those to the TLCP (points to sig). The short barrel indicates a low range, but the barrel is far wider then just about anything else that long, which is odd.

You're welcome. There's several similar looking turrets on other places on the ISD, but I haven't scaled those to confirm they are the same.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2003-12-14 06:32pm

IceHawk-151 wrote:Ossus, I hate to say it again, but neither the Destroyer nor the Cruiser landed an HTL bolt. The Star Destroyer’s bolts can bee seen appearing behind Ackbar’s head, and the Calamari’s two bolts were seen passing before and behind the Destroyer. The fact that the Rebel HTL bolts dissipated after passing the Destroyer does not denote a hit.

http://www.theforce.net/swtc/Pix/zs/rotj/turrbolt.jpg

Directly after these frames, the rebel fires a red blast that hits the habitable honeycomb and blows the ISD to hell.

Galaxy-class vessels have shown the capability to fire bursts of 10-12 Photon Torpedoes out of their fore launchers. Although the re-fire rate is not known, at best it would be one salvo a second. That would mean it would take 5 Galaxy-class vessels at least 10 seconds to kick out 600 torpedoes. Of course more time would be required due to re-load rates.

When, most we saw was barages of 8 in Survivors.

Slave One’s laser cannons were stated to be in the range of Kilotons. The movies and the expanded universe books would support this. This would also place fighter weaponry 2 to 4 orders of magnitude less powerful than the smallest Turbolasers.
Slave One’s seismic charges fragmented the asteroid, they did not vaporize it. Also these weapons have never once been seen before, and appear to be unique to Fett’s weapons.

That asteroid was Eros, that makes it something like 13 miles by 11 miles by 11 miles,and it was fragmented like no big deal along with a dozen other asteroids. You grossly underestimate the power.

And seismics can't be that rare, obi wan knew what they were as soon as he saw them.

The type of torpedo fired by Slave One is also unique, as it was not the same class as the red cone shaped torpedoes of the X-Wing, or the red dagger missiles of the Millennium Falcon.

It didn't have some kind of shield rue, but it is the same as the torpedos from the OT ICS, which are said to have the same yield as those on the Falcon in the EGWT.

I also find it weird that a directed charge, such as the torpedo appeared to be, could detonate a couple of dozen meters behind Obi-Wan’s shieldless fighter and do little to no damage to it.

IceHawk-151 · Post by **IceHawk-151** » 2003-12-14 06:39pm

Give me a second and I will post the screenshots proving the HTL bolts all missed.
When viewed with the negative you clearly see both of the Calamari bolts passed by the Destroyer.

IceHawk-151 · Post by **IceHawk-151** » 2003-12-14 07:03pm

Alright, while I did not have time to formally make notes on the webpage, I will write them here.

While watching the clip, I decided to use Quicktime to take a few snapshots. Others had said that the HTL shots missed the ISD, and others have stated it had impacted. Hoping that I could get a better view of the HTL bolts using the negatives of each picture I modified them with photoshop.
The quicktime version I have allows me to increase the size of the clip to almost fullscreen, so these pics are much larger than the others. I denoted the HTL bolts by boxing them in red. Each bolt I found was signified in this way. In the last couple of shots as you scroll down the page you can faintly make out the two red bolts passing to the right of the destroyer, and when turned to negative the bolts are easily found to both be there.

Be carefuel, the pics are huge, and there are almost a dozen of them.

http://www.geocities.com/icehawk151/htlmiss.htm

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2003-12-14 07:07pm

In Htl02a.jpg, three turbolaser bolts are just to the left of the ISD. Several frames later in Htl06.jpg, there are only two bolts.

Where did the third one go? Did it just magically go POOF into thin air? Or did it hit the ISD?.

IceHawk-151 · Post by **IceHawk-151** » 2003-12-14 07:32pm

Howedar wrote:In Htl02a.jpg, three turbolaser bolts are just to the left of the ISD. Several frames later in Htl06.jpg, there are only two bolts.

Where did the third one go? Did it just magically go POOF into thin air? Or did it hit the ISD?.

Actually if you will notice, the third bolt is green.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2003-12-14 08:34pm

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Lord Poe · Post by **Lord Poe** » 2003-12-14 08:45pm

I originally wrote this a few years ago, when Izhalla and sb.com at large were passing around the same argment; i.e. HTLs have horrible accuracy. Onscreen canon proves otherwise, however. I told him that there's more going on in the particular scene he was referencing, as Ackbar's head could hide a lot more ships than we see, and his Curtis' picture also eliminated a Mon Cal ship to the far left.

Anyway, to prove there was more going on in that scene, I told Izhalla to track the FIRST TL fired by the ISD in question. It seems that he tracked the second one, and missed my point:

http://h4h.com/louis/jpgs/image1.jpg

This first bolt is the one I'm referring to. Tracking it as I said above brings the original conclusion:

http://h4h.com/louis/jpgs/image2.jpg

http://h4h.com/louis/jpgs/image3.jpg

http://h4h.com/louis/jpgs/image4.jpg

Image 3 is the bolt Izhalla tracked. Image 4 shows the bolt I was referring to circled in red. Izhalla's bolt, circled in yellow, hasn't even passed Ackbar's head yet.

Now, for HTL accuracy, and Mon Cal tactics:

The following images speaks to HTL accuracy, and Mon Cal example of firing on a target farther away rather than the closest one:

http://h4h.com/louis/jpgs/image6.jpg

http://h4h.com/louis/jpgs/image7.jpg

http://h4h.com/louis/jpgs/image8.jpg

http://h4h.com/louis/jpgs/image9.jpg

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2003-12-14 09:55pm

Uh, I think we've had this discussion before. Those aren't turrets. I checked those out during the Myth and Magic tour when it had swung through my state, and they had these little pancake-like projections on the ends of those "arms" - they aren't guns.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2003-12-14 09:57pm

In addition to the octets, the Avenger model had only a few other things that were explicitly turrets. One was in the left-side brim notch, and another was located up front at the nose inside the "trench" area. Sorry.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2003-12-15 12:18am

Yes Connor, we have had this discussion. If I remember correctly, you never did provide any pictures or anything, so we're left with your impression of what is "gunlike" and what is not.

nightmare · Post by **nightmare** » 2003-12-15 12:48am

Connor MacLeod wrote:Uh, I think we've had this discussion before. Those aren't turrets. I checked those out during the Myth and Magic tour when it had swung through my state, and they had these little pancake-like projections on the ends of those "arms" - they aren't guns.

I first thought the same as you. I would like better pictures before I agree though, they seem to be located at the bottom of the turrets. But even if they are, it wouldn't be the first time we saw barrels with extra protrusions on the end, IRL or SW alike. You may also notice that similar turrets are located for example in this picture. Clearly without pancakes.

Connor MacLeod wrote:In addition to the octets, the Avenger model had only a few other things that were explicitly turrets. One was in the left-side brim notch, and another was located up front at the nose inside the "trench" area. Sorry.

I agree. However, if you check what I wrote, most of the side barrels aren't situated in turrets. They're fixed on a up-down axis. Don't tell me those aren't barrels. I've done my share of modelling, and they look exactly like BB gun barrels should.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2003-12-15 12:48am

http://www.theforce.net/swtc/Pix/Xbrooklyn/Isd26.jpg

http://www.theforce.net/swtc/Pix/Xbrooklyn/Isd14.jpg

http://www.theforce.net/swtc/Pix/Xbrooklyn/Isd13.jpg

http://www.theforce.net/swtc/Pix/Xbrooklyn/Isd10.jpg

And this is what a turret on the ship looked like:

http://www.theforce.net/swtc/Pix/Xbrooklyn/Isd15.jpg