B-tech Vs gundum

SF: discuss futuristic sci-fi series, ideas, and crossovers.

Moderator: NecronLord

Post Reply
User avatar
Kuja
The Dark Messenger
Posts: 19322
Joined: 2002-07-11 12:05am
Location: AZ

Post by Kuja »

IG-88E wrote:All right, I'm going to try setting up a scenario: A single Galaxy of mechs (80) from Clans Wolf and Jade Falcon are planning to battle an equal number of OYW MS from Zeon and the Fed. Each side has a broad range of firepower, from light to heavy. Each side has six aces: the Gundam has Amuro (NT), Terry Sanders, Kai Shiden, Char Aznable (NT), Ranba Ral, and Dozle Zabi. B-tech fans, pick 6 aces of your choice. The battlefield is a flat plain bordering a city, which prohibits the use of weapons of mass destruction. Each side has one extremely powerful suit for the MS: Gundam. For B-tech, pick one.

Add things, but keep it fair!
Fogot to add: support includes three squadrons of fighters and several tank/vehicle units

Vejut picked aces for B-tech (see last page)

Besides, they have FTL, so what? All Gundam ships have to do is wait around, guarding one system, for them to drop out and then launch their suits.
Image
JADAFETWA
Rubberanvil
Jedi Master
Posts: 1167
Joined: 2002-09-30 06:32pm

Post by Rubberanvil »

How many tranport ships each side have?
User avatar
Kuja
The Dark Messenger
Posts: 19322
Joined: 2002-07-11 12:05am
Location: AZ

Post by Kuja »

none. They're starting just out of range of each other, with, say, five minutes to get their formations and strategies together
Image
JADAFETWA
User avatar
SylasGaunt
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 5267
Joined: 2002-09-04 09:39pm
Location: GGG

Post by SylasGaunt »

I've never seen these quotes and what sources I do have don't seem to bear out that assumption. And the space not having the same ECM makes no sense, because both aerofighters and starships have much more room for ECM (aerofighters as I remember always carry more than a mech of equivalent tonnage).

Source: BattleSpace

Size of a Hex: 18 kilometers (page 6)
Range of a Standard IS Gauss Rifle: 20 hexes (page 69)
Length of a Turn: 10 seconds (standard to all BT universe games)

(18 km x 20 hexes)/10 seconds = 36,000 m/s lower limit of speed[/QUOTE]

Using the Battlespace rules maybe. On the other hand according to the BTech rules and novels it's a lot less. (and if the BTech novels are supposedly less canon than the rulebooks I'd say the game's actual rulebook is more canon than anothers).

And using BATTLETECH rules, that gauss rifle, even if only using a 1 kilo projectile, would do more than a thousand damage.


AeroTech units can't carry C3, ECM, or other electronics because they often already have similar equipment, but the range is so great that they have no game effect.


Note all those systems are also purchased SEPERATELY on mechs. None of the novels point to it being an ECM heavy environment until someone brings a raven along.

IE: the AeroTech/BattleSpace environment is effectively ECM-free




Source: Star League Sourcebook, page 31

The guns on (real world) Merkava tanks were completely ineffective against the armor of the first prototype battlemech. Needless to say, by extension weapons that ARE effective against 'mech armor are far more powerful than modern tank cannons.[/i]
Considering the tank guns in that test should have had a penetration 3 times what was stated I doubt this helps much.
On the topic of the Steel thing.... again SLS page 31. Remember that (source: TRO 3058, page 148) the Mackie has -inferior Armor technology to even 3025 'mechs-.
Which again doesn't say good things about their armor.

"No damage!
(referring to the Merkava shell) A piece of steel no thicker than my finger, strengthened by radiation casting techniques and impregnated with a sheet of woven diamond fibers, had stopped cold an armor-piercing shell. That same shell would have gone straight through a third of a meter of normal (for the 25th century) sheet of steel.
Considering modern tank guns have penetration closer to 1000mm you aren't helping things.
Clearly BattleTech armor has weaknesses, especially to gross blunt trauma. That said, BattleTech weapons are tremendously powerful.
Provided you use another game system yes. If you use the battletech game system and the battletech novels they're tremendously pathetic.
As for the ECM issue; guided missiles capable of homing in on their target under battlefield conditions were considered to be on of the most advanced elements of Star League technology. "Modern" IE 3067 missile launchers with full guidance weight as much as twice what their mostly-unguided cousins weigh. Why? Given that the IS versions perform identically to their unguided cousins, it seems that the ordnance is the same - it is the targeting equipment that adds the weight. In fact all targeting equipment in BattleTech weighs a tremendous amount, despite the fact that BT computer technology is far more advanced than modern computer systems.
Or just horrendously inefficient. Of course you'd need a good computer just to keep the mech standing upright.

Also further weight in the missile could be taken up by shock absorbers and the like to protect the electronics (and the fact a guided missile is considered so damn special says bad things about their Technology).
So what is all this weight needed for? Either an amazing, unbelievable amount of computing power is needed to aim under land battle conditions (a problem that does not exist in long-range space battles... see above), or that weight is shielding to protect against jamming, EMP, and so forth.
Jamming, EMP, and so forth that is never brought up in any of the source material I've read as apperantly they've forgotten about a little thing called 'wire guided missiles'.
Of course, if you have an alternate explanation, I'm all ears.
Their tech sucks since based on what numbers we're given in the novels, coupled with charging and DFA (which have to my knowledge never changed through the editions) it works out to something inferior to modern day technology.
Vejut
Padawan Learner
Posts: 308
Joined: 2002-08-28 11:34pm
Location: edge of hickville, just inside suburbia

Post by Vejut »

*smacks head* Oy gevalt...we ain't getting through...
Just because it says "Steel" doesn't mean its modern stainless--there are different alloys, etc. with different streinghts...same as with iron...pig iron, wrought iron, etc.

You're also forgetting your opponent is farther away in space, and you have more room to cover with it.

And you said it yourself, AT/BS is ECM free...unless that was a failed quote or something. That might indicate that maybe the problem with ground stuff is that there IS ECM.

Next point: gee, if the guns should have penetration 3 times what they do, maybe the problem isn't with the guns, maybe they aren't useing modern stainless or RHA, but rather, something stronger that protects 3x or better agaist tank rounds!
Considering the expense of the armor plate they're talking about, I find that much more likely than lying to waste money...despite what you may think, most military officers won't spend way more on something that only works 1/3 as well... There frankly is no POINT to rigging the test, at least not as obviously as you claim, as by that point you've dumped a few billion in, and if you dump a few billion more in, you're gonna end up paying with peoples lives and portions of your realm.

BS is part of the battletech system. You'll notice that section in your Compendium, or newer TRO's dealing with areofighters?

You'd need a good comp, yes, but thats what your gyro is for...

And a guided missle may say bad things about their tech, or it may say good things about their jamming, or maybe the missles travel too fast for guidance packages/don't have enough space, etc.
Darik Sdair
Youngling
Posts: 111
Joined: 2002-07-04 12:57am
Location: New Hampshire, United States
Contact:

Post by Darik Sdair »

Vejut wrote:Plus Saidar, those probably weren't modern Merkava, but rather another tank named Merkava, like the BT Patton tank and the M60, or the brit Challenger? (or is it chieftan? something like that) WWII tank and their modern, and much more powerful, Challenger. That test after all, was 4-5 centuries into the future, and it's unlikely anyone not a uber-historian has even heard of an Israli Merkava, much less has one lying around...and the 25th century is not known for technological backsliding in BT.

Evidence for better comps, because you will ask: Hologram cameras that can be handheld (high processing power, low mass and volume), planetary datalinks with very low response time (at least internet, if not cable/DSL level internet ability) , ability to do jump calcs, ability of a mech to even stand up, much less move, yet still be able to do things like go prone and move torso up and down...can't be all gyro doing that, because the mech can elevate it's torso, and stand up when it falls...

Consider then, that since what is at the minimum an old 20th century MBT, and probably was much more, couldn't take down the old inferior mackie, or even dent it, that tends to argue that the tank gun level power is a little low, no?

Plus, wouldn't the various battles leading up to the acceptance of the mech and conversion of armies to the mech as the striking arm have shown any flaws there may have been in the machine if the test was rigged? After all, your opponent sure wouldn't cut you any slack...
Yeah, Vej, the Merkava they referred to is probably a modern (for its time) SL tank. The picture on that page shows hovertanks firing on a Mackie. However, I was trying to establish a lower limit rather than make a comprehensive examination =)
Banzai!
Darik Sdair
Youngling
Posts: 111
Joined: 2002-07-04 12:57am
Location: New Hampshire, United States
Contact:

Post by Darik Sdair »

VF5SS wrote:
Darik Sdair wrote:
Hmm, sounds like a good baseline to work from. Given that flamers in CBT are the exact same thing, I guess we know how much damage a beam sabre does in CBT :wink:

disclaimer: I'm only semi-serious here
Well I should hope not since I own a good nubmer of B-tech game books and unless you want to argue semantics that ain't what it say about flamers :P
From a technical standpoint, the BattleTech novels are basically useless. They are loaded with contradictions and don't match the game system at all. The game system is explicit: 'mech flamers (the kind that don't need ammo) are raw plasma straight from the 'mech's fusion drive.
Banzai!
Darik Sdair
Youngling
Posts: 111
Joined: 2002-07-04 12:57am
Location: New Hampshire, United States
Contact:

Post by Darik Sdair »

SylasGaunt wrote:I've never seen these quotes and what sources I do have don't seem to bear out that assumption. And the space not having the same ECM makes no sense, because both aerofighters and starships have much more room for ECM (aerofighters as I remember always carry more than a mech of equivalent tonnage).

Source: BattleSpace

Size of a Hex: 18 kilometers (page 6)
Range of a Standard IS Gauss Rifle: 20 hexes (page 69)
Length of a Turn: 10 seconds (standard to all BT universe games)

(18 km x 20 hexes)/10 seconds = 36,000 m/s lower limit of speed


Using the Battlespace rules maybe. On the other hand according to the BTech rules and novels it's a lot less. (and if the BTech novels are supposedly less canon than the rulebooks I'd say the game's actual rulebook is more canon than anothers).

And using BATTLETECH rules, that gauss rifle, even if only using a 1 kilo projectile, would do more than a thousand damage.

Go right ahead and justify that statement. Oh wait, do you mean "and using BATTLETECH rules and making assumptions based on the hideously flawed and self-contradictory novels, even if only using a 1 kilo projectile, would do more than a thousand damage."

Seriously though, I am genuinely interested in seeing your underlying calculations. (I suspect that you're scaling from the DFA thing, but I won't leap into that assumption without confirming it)


AeroTech units can't carry C3, ECM, or other electronics because they often already have similar equipment, but the range is so great that they have no game effect.
Note all those systems are also purchased SEPERATELY on mechs. None of the novels point to it being an ECM heavy environment until someone brings a raven along.

The novels also claim that Gauss Rifles fire at Mach 2.

IE: the AeroTech/BattleSpace environment is effectively ECM-free




Source: Star League Sourcebook, page 31

The guns on (real world) Merkava tanks were completely ineffective against the armor of the first prototype battlemech. Needless to say, by extension weapons that ARE effective against 'mech armor are far more powerful than modern tank cannons.[/i]
Considering the tank guns in that test should have had a penetration 3 times what was stated I doubt this helps much.

Compare strength of WWII steel armor to modern steel armor, thanks to improved manufacturing processs. Apply same standards to armor between 21st and 25th centuries. If anything, a 3x improvement in protection seems somewhat poor
On the topic of the Steel thing.... again SLS page 31. Remember that (source: TRO 3058, page 148) the Mackie has -inferior Armor technology to even 3025 'mechs-.
Which again doesn't say good things about their armor.

"No damage!
(referring to the Merkava shell) A piece of steel no thicker than my finger, strengthened by radiation casting techniques and impregnated with a sheet of woven diamond fibers, had stopped cold an armor-piercing shell. That same shell would have gone straight through a third of a meter of normal (for the 25th century) sheet of steel.
Considering modern tank guns have penetration closer to 1000mm you aren't helping things.
Clearly BattleTech armor has weaknesses, especially to gross blunt trauma. That said, BattleTech weapons are tremendously powerful.
Provided you use another game system yes. If you use the battletech game system and the battletech novels they're tremendously pathetic.
As for the ECM issue; guided missiles capable of homing in on their target under battlefield conditions were considered to be on of the most advanced elements of Star League technology. "Modern" IE 3067 missile launchers with full guidance weight as much as twice what their mostly-unguided cousins weigh. Why? Given that the IS versions perform identically to their unguided cousins, it seems that the ordnance is the same - it is the targeting equipment that adds the weight. In fact all targeting equipment in BattleTech weighs a tremendous amount, despite the fact that BT computer technology is far more advanced than modern computer systems.
Or just horrendously inefficient. Of course you'd need a good computer just to keep the mech standing upright.

Also further weight in the missile could be taken up by shock absorbers and the like to protect the electronics (and the fact a guided missile is considered so damn special says bad things about their Technology).
So what is all this weight needed for? Either an amazing, unbelievable amount of computing power is needed to aim under land battle conditions (a problem that does not exist in long-range space battles... see above), or that weight is shielding to protect against jamming, EMP, and so forth.
Jamming, EMP, and so forth that is never brought up in any of the source material I've read as apperantly they've forgotten about a little thing called 'wire guided missiles'.

That, or agressive jamming fries the guidance computers on the WGMs, because shielding them would make the missiles prohibitively heavy for their damage output
Of course, if you have an alternate explanation, I'm all ears.
Their tech sucks since based on what numbers we're given in the novels, coupled with charging and DFA (which have to my knowledge never changed through the editions) it works out to something inferior to modern day technology.
That wasn't really what I had in mind, but obviously there's no convincing you.
Banzai!
User avatar
SylasGaunt
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 5267
Joined: 2002-09-04 09:39pm
Location: GGG

Post by SylasGaunt »

Vejut wrote:*smacks head* Oy gevalt...we ain't getting through...
Just because it says "Steel" doesn't mean its modern stainless--there are different alloys, etc. with different streinghts...same as with iron...pig iron, wrought iron, etc.
Except none of the materials ever mentioned are anything we don't have today.

For example endosteel skeletons are steel, titanium, and aluminum.

And you're right, it isn't neccesarily the same.. indications seem to be its weaker.
You're also forgetting your opponent is farther away in space, and you have more room to cover with it.
Maybe if you're doing blanket jamming, but if you're trying to shield a fighter you only need to cover the fighter itself.
And you said it yourself, AT/BS is ECM free...unless that was a failed quote or something. That might indicate that maybe the problem with ground stuff is that there IS ECM.
ECM has never been mentioned as the cause of the pathetic ranges in Btech. Ever.
Next point: gee, if the guns should have penetration 3 times what they do, maybe the problem isn't with the guns, maybe they aren't useing modern stainless or RHA, but rather, something stronger that protects 3x or better agaist tank rounds!
Provided of course nobody ever bothered updating the tank guns :roll:
Considering the expense of the armor plate they're talking about, I find that much more likely than lying to waste money...despite what you may think, most military officers won't spend way more on something that only works 1/3 as well... There frankly is no POINT to rigging the test, at least not as obviously as you claim, as by that point you've dumped a few billion in, and if you dump a few billion more in, you're gonna end up paying with peoples lives and portions of your realm.
Ah that explains why one guy was running a multi-crew tank, they all held still, only one fired, etc. etc.
BS is part of the battletech system. You'll notice that section in your Compendium, or newer TRO's dealing with areofighters?
Where these aerofighters have the exact same crappy ranges as Battlemechs even though they should be able to plink them from all the way across the mech with their supposedly superior ranges?

And a guided missle may say bad things about their tech, or it may say good things about their jamming, or maybe the missles travel too fast for guidance packages/don't have enough space, etc.
Wire guided missiles wouldn't be affected in the slightest by jamming.
User avatar
SylasGaunt
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 5267
Joined: 2002-09-04 09:39pm
Location: GGG

Post by SylasGaunt »

Darik Sdair wrote:
SylasGaunt wrote: Go right ahead and justify that statement. Oh wait, do you mean "and using BATTLETECH rules and making assumptions based on the hideously flawed and self-contradictory novels, even if only using a 1 kilo projectile, would do more than a thousand damage."


So because the novels provide evidence that doesn't work for you they're suddenly non-canon? I don't recall reading anything in any of the novels that contradicts some of the quotes given in them.

Furthermore the author of the novel the kilojoule laser remark comes from (micheal stackpole) is one of the more profilific BTech authors and also wrote some of the fiction that appears in the compendium.


Seriously though, I am genuinely interested in seeing your underlying calculations. (I suspect that you're scaling from the DFA thing, but I won't leap into that assumption without confirming it)
Kilojoule Large Laser: Assuming 999 kilojoules, we get 124.8 kJ per damage point.

Charging Damage: A Mad Dog moving the full distance for a charge gives us a damage of (1/2 * 60,000 kilos x 24 m/s^2 = 17.2 megajoules) 360 kilojoules per damage point.

DFA Damage: A 100 ton mech performing a DFA does 30 damage. A DFA involves a fall from 2 elevation levels (12 meters), but lets do them a favor and assume they fell for two whole seconds (somehow) with no wind resistance to slow them. That's a speed of 19.6 m/s (50,000 x 19.6 m/s^2= 19.2 mJ ) giving you 640 kJ per damage point.

Falling: Numbers match the DFA

The highest of these gives a BTech damage for a 1 kilo projectile going 36,000 m/s 1012.

Using the lower number we get 5192 damage.


The novels also claim that Gauss Rifles fire at Mach 2.
And? Those claims in the novels give us bigger numbers than anything figured from the actual battletech rulebook.

Compare strength of WWII steel armor to modern steel armor, thanks to improved manufacturing processs. Apply same standards to armor between 21st and 25th centuries. If anything, a 3x improvement in protection seems somewhat poor
Steel penetration is a standard form of measurement.

That, or agressive jamming fries the guidance computers on the WGMs, because shielding them would make the missiles prohibitively heavy for their damage output
Nice theory.. now where's your evidence backing it?
That wasn't really what I had in mind, but obviously there's no convincing you.
I could say the same about you.
Darik Sdair
Youngling
Posts: 111
Joined: 2002-07-04 12:57am
Location: New Hampshire, United States
Contact:

Post by Darik Sdair »

SylasGaunt wrote:
Darik Sdair wrote:
SylasGaunt wrote: Go right ahead and justify that statement. Oh wait, do you mean "and using BATTLETECH rules and making assumptions based on the hideously flawed and self-contradictory novels, even if only using a 1 kilo projectile, would do more than a thousand damage."

So because the novels provide evidence that doesn't work for you they're suddenly non-canon? I don't recall reading anything in any of the novels that contradicts some of the quotes given in them.

Furthermore the author of the novel the kilojoule laser remark comes from (micheal stackpole) is one of the more profilific BTech authors and also wrote some of the fiction that appears in the compendium.


It doesn't have anything to do with the evidence the novels provide; honestly I rather like the novels, but the fact remains that they don't match the game system. They range from relatively minor issues (the stuff we're arguing over right now) to very major problems (the head-shot proliferation in "Phoenix" comes to mind). Ultimately, BattleTech has no continuity control in place over their authors as far as technological accuracy goes, and each author has effectively their own take on the technology base.

As an aside, what exactly does the fact that Mike Stackpole was a contributor of fiction to the compendium (indeed, a main storyline developer for the novel line!) have to do with the fact that his novels' remarks don't match the game system's statistics.

In a game-based universe like BattleTech, the games have to trump the novels when it comes to a contradiction... otherwise the universe isn't really based on the games - and then, why call it BattleTech Universe? Everything else (even the novel line as of the completion of "Endgame"), is released under the MechWarrior (and MechCommander/MechAssault) label.


Seriously though, I am genuinely interested in seeing your underlying calculations. (I suspect that you're scaling from the DFA thing, but I won't leap into that assumption without confirming it)
Kilojoule Large Laser: Assuming 999 kilojoules, we get 124.8 kJ per damage point.

Key word: assuming

Charging Damage: A Mad Dog moving the full distance for a charge gives us a damage of (1/2 * 60,000 kilos x 24 m/s^2 = 17.2 megajoules) 360 kilojoules per damage point.

DFA Damage: A 100 ton mech performing a DFA does 30 damage. A DFA involves a fall from 2 elevation levels (12 meters), but lets do them a favor and assume they fell for two whole seconds (somehow) with no wind resistance to slow them. That's a speed of 19.6 m/s (50,000 x 19.6 m/s^2= 19.2 mJ ) giving you 640 kJ per damage point.

Falling: Numbers match the DFA

The highest of these gives a BTech damage for a 1 kilo projectile going 36,000 m/s 1012.

Using the lower number we get 5192 damage.

Your entire theory here is contingent on the theory that BattleMechs take damage in the exact same way from weapons fire the way they take damage from physical combat. I'll confess that I'm not a weapons engineer, but against an armored target, a gross impact is going to transfer its energy to its target much more effectively than a beam weapon that has to burn through the ablative elements of the armor, or a small-area kinetic penetrator that's likely to be deflected if the point of least resistance from its impact is somewhere other than the giant slab of armor it is running into.


The novels also claim that Gauss Rifles fire at Mach 2.
And? Those claims in the novels give us bigger numbers than anything figured from the actual battletech rulebook.

Only when you scale the damage figures from the phyiscal attacks and assume a uniform level of energy being transfered to the target and a uniform level of efficiency in those transfers in all cases
Compare strength of WWII steel armor to modern steel armor, thanks to improved manufacturing processs. Apply same standards to armor between 21st and 25th centuries. If anything, a 3x improvement in protection seems somewhat poor
Steel penetration is a standard form of measurement.

The character in the quote was not speaking in an authoratative voice; he never specified that he was referring literally to penetration mmes, and the context of the quote clearly seems to indicate he's talking about contemporary steel armor. This is supported by the TRO 3025 quote that refers to the Crab's standard armor are RHA, even though it has superior protection/ton to the armor of the Mackie, and perhaps more importantly behaves like "Mackie armor" instead of real RHA.
That, or agressive jamming fries the guidance computers on the WGMs, because shielding them would make the missiles prohibitively heavy for their damage output
Nice theory.. now where's your evidence backing it?

20 year update, page 73. Fed Com developed a guidance system the size of a hand grenade that allowed all of their missiles to home-on-target under battlefield conditions. Kurita had a booster module for their existing ECM modules to counter it within months. This is before Kurita fielded any units with Guardian ECM to my knowledge. Battlefield ECM is a reality, and it is the factor preventing homing missiles from working.

As for WGM missiles being agressively jammed, with all due respect I don't need any evidence. I'm answering a hypothetical question on your part - its only one possible answer; the "real" answer to the "why no WGM" question is: "because the game developers decided the technology was, for whatever reason, no longer relevant by the 31st century."

That wasn't really what I had in mind, but obviously there's no convincing you.
I could say the same about you.
You could, but it would be sort of obvious, since I'm only answering your arguments. The goal is not for you to convince me :wink:
Banzai!
User avatar
SylasGaunt
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 5267
Joined: 2002-09-04 09:39pm
Location: GGG

Post by SylasGaunt »

It doesn't have anything to do with the evidence the novels provide; honestly I rather like the novels, but the fact remains that they don't match the game system. They range from relatively minor issues (the stuff we're arguing over right now) to very major problems (the head-shot proliferation in "Phoenix" comes to mind). Ultimately, BattleTech has no continuity control in place over their authors as far as technological accuracy goes, and each author has effectively their own take on the technology base.
Mr. Stackpole's novels DO fit with the Battletech rules. Of course since the Battletech, Aerotech, and Battlespace rules seem to contradict i suppose we could throw thos eout to :roll:
As an aside, what exactly does the fact that Mike Stackpole was a contributor of fiction to the compendium (indeed, a main storyline developer for the novel line!) have to do with the fact that his novels' remarks don't match the game system's statistics.
They do though unless you go outside the actual battletech rules. (the ranges even appear to match with a LL having a max range of 450)
In a game-based universe like BattleTech, the games have to trump the novels when it comes to a contradiction... otherwise the universe isn't really based on the games - and then, why call it BattleTech Universe? Everything else (even the novel line as of the completion of "Endgame"), is released under the MechWarrior (and MechCommander/MechAssault) label.
Except that games inherently have to deal with issues such as game balance. And I haven't been referencing any of the mechwarrior series novels. Just the battletech ones.


Key word: assuming
Of course that's as he as we can go without leaving the kilojoule range now isn't it? Of course there are 998 OTHER possible numbers all of them lower, that we could use if you like.
Your entire theory here is contingent on the theory that BattleMechs take damage in the exact same way from weapons fire the way they take damage from physical combat. I'll confess that I'm not a weapons engineer, but against an armored target, a gross impact is going to transfer its energy to its target much more effectively than a beam weapon that has to burn through the ablative elements of the armor, or a small-area kinetic penetrator that's likely to be deflected if the point of least resistance from its impact is somewhere other than the giant slab of armor it is running into.
This is all based on the kinetic energy present. That is a fixed amount, and why pray tell should a battlemech take more damage from a low speed impact than from a high speed impact? (Gauss rifle shells are supposed to be watermelon shaped for example)

Only when you scale the damage figures from the phyiscal attacks and assume a uniform level of energy being transfered to the target and a uniform level of efficiency in those transfers in all cases
Haven't you been doing the exact same thing only using the battlespace gauss rifle?

And physical attacks often do more damage than weapons. So we should assume those are more efficient than BTech weapons?

Even the smallest mech (20 tons IIRC) will suffer six damage just from falling down. This is an impact spread over a wider area than a weapon impact yet it does the same amount of damage as a medium pulse laser (and exceeds the damage of several weapons).

The character in the quote was not speaking in an authoratative voice; he never specified that he was referring literally to penetration mmes, and the context of the quote clearly seems to indicate he's talking about contemporary steel armor. This is supported by the TRO 3025 quote that refers to the Crab's standard armor are RHA, even though it has superior protection/ton to the armor of the Mackie, and perhaps more importantly behaves like "Mackie armor" instead of real RHA.
20 year update, page 73. Fed Com developed a guidance system the size of a hand grenade that allowed all of their missiles to home-on-target under battlefield conditions. Kurita had a booster module for their existing ECM modules to counter it within months. This is before Kurita fielded any units with Guardian ECM to my knowledge. Battlefield ECM is a reality, and it is the factor preventing homing missiles from working.


Notice that has nothing to do with WGMs.

And ECM is never mentioned as the reason for shorter ranges (or wouldn't it make more sense for all these dumbfire weapons to have the same effective range) nor does it explain the reason behind longer clan weapons range (at least if ECM was the limiting factor)

[QUOTE}As for WGM missiles being agressively jammed, with all due respect I don't need any evidence. I'm answering a hypothetical question on your part - its only one possible answer; the "real" answer to the "why no WGM" question is: "because the game developers decided the technology was, for whatever reason, no longer relevant by the 31st century."
[/QUOTE]

So they lack technology we've had for decades, right.
User avatar
Shadowhawk
Jedi Knight
Posts: 669
Joined: 2002-07-03 07:19pm
Location: Western Washington
Contact:

Post by Shadowhawk »

Compare strength of WWII steel armor to modern steel armor, thanks to improved manufacturing processs. Apply same standards to armor between 21st and 25th centuries. If anything, a 3x improvement in protection seems somewhat poor
Steel is steel is steel. The difference between 1940s steel and modern-day steel is virtually negligable (especially when you consider that major US steel manufacturers are using techniques pioneered in the 1800s).

The difference in armor capabilities is how the steel is formed (affects its fragility; re: Titanic), how it's situated on the vehicle (structural strength, integrity; minimum of joints = maximum strength), how much of it is on the vehicle, and what other armor technologies are used (DU, reactive armor, conductive meshes, etc).

Go read Wong's page on armoring on the main VS site. You'll learn why it's simply wrong to assume endosteel or whatever it is they use in BT is significantly better at stopping penetration than modern-day armor.

Now, if BT actually used some mystical super-ceramic (Zahn's Conqueror's Trilogy) or nanotube armor, you could argue that it's got some enormous advantage in defensive abilities over modern day armor. Instead, you've got what's effectively steel with a diamond fiber laminate.
Shadowhawk
Eric from ASVS
"Sufficiently advanced technology is often indistinguishable from magic." -- Clarke's Third Law
"Then, from sea to shining sea, the God-King sang the praises of teflon, and with his face to the sunshine, he churned lots of butter." -- Body of a pharmacy spam email

Here's my avatar, full-sized (Yoshitoshi ABe's autograph in my Lain: Omnipresence artbook)
Vejut
Padawan Learner
Posts: 308
Joined: 2002-08-28 11:34pm
Location: edge of hickville, just inside suburbia

Post by Vejut »

*Raises hand*
Can you point me to the armoring section on the main site? I'm seeing a sheilding section, but nothing on armoring...that may be what you mean, however...


Also: further evidence novels are wrong: Phlean Kell is still alive. In a Michael Stackpole novel, Phlean's mech took a Clan ER PPC mech hit to the head. In BT, that would remove the head, kill the pilot, and effectively destroy the mech. It doesn't, instead merely destroying the life support system and opening up the cockpit to the atmosphere (pretty much no effect as he was fighting on an inhabitable planet).

Further evidence gauss rifles go faster than just enough speed to cover their range in 10 seconds: Possible to raise a mech to that speed through a 9.5 ton engine (including the engine, the actuators, etc.), yet a Gauss takes 12 tons (15 for IS), and can also hit said mech from behind. Possible to go about 1.5 times faster than that (900m in 10 seconds) with only 3 or so tons of add on equiptment. And this is moving 20000kg, not 125.
User avatar
Kuja
The Dark Messenger
Posts: 19322
Joined: 2002-07-11 12:05am
Location: AZ

Post by Kuja »

Vejut wrote:*Raises hand*
Can you point me to the armoring section on the main site? I'm seeing a sheilding section, but nothing on armoring...that may be what you mean, however....
I think it's in the 'battles' section. That or the 'comparable tech' section.
Image
JADAFETWA
Vejut
Padawan Learner
Posts: 308
Joined: 2002-08-28 11:34pm
Location: edge of hickville, just inside suburbia

Post by Vejut »

'comparable tech?'

Am I blind? or just looking in the wrong place? I can't find it...I checked the site map, essay section (only the base, I.e. didn't look in battles until you told me to, though I have now), myths, etc. ...assume you're dealing with an idoiot and spell out the steps or give a URL please?
User avatar
Kuja
The Dark Messenger
Posts: 19322
Joined: 2002-07-11 12:05am
Location: AZ

Post by Kuja »

sorry, your dealing with a guy whose memroy for names is borderline alzheimers. *shrug* I don't remember.
Image
JADAFETWA
User avatar
SylasGaunt
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 5267
Joined: 2002-09-04 09:39pm
Location: GGG

Post by SylasGaunt »

Vejut wrote:*Raises hand*

Also: further evidence novels are wrong: Phlean Kell is still alive. In a Michael Stackpole novel, Phlean's mech took a Clan ER PPC mech hit to the head. In BT, that would remove the head, kill the pilot, and effectively destroy the mech. It doesn't, instead merely destroying the life support system and opening up the cockpit to the atmosphere (pretty much no effect as he was fighting on an inhabitable planet).
No, that's merely the difference between game systems and real life. In BTech rules there isn't any kind of rules for glancing hits, etc. Most game systems represent the myriad variations you can get from a hit (glancing, dead on etc) through the ol' dice system (3d6 damage). BTech uses fixed damage for simplified gameplay with a hit doing the same amount of damage whether the angle would cause it to glance or not.
Further evidence gauss rifles go faster than just enough speed to cover their range in 10 seconds: Possible to raise a mech to that speed through a 9.5 ton engine (including the engine, the actuators, etc.), yet a Gauss takes 12 tons (15 for IS), and can also hit said mech from behind. Possible to go about 1.5 times faster than that (900m in 10 seconds) with only 3 or so tons of add on equiptment. And this is moving 20000kg, not 125.
BTech gauss rifles have a stated velocity of mach 2. That's 590 m/s which allows them to cover the distance to their target (at max range) in just over a second.

The argument you're responding to involved the Battlespace gauss rifle which according to what I've been told needs a speed of at least 36,000 m/s. No mech can go THAT fast.
User avatar
Shadowhawk
Jedi Knight
Posts: 669
Joined: 2002-07-03 07:19pm
Location: Western Washington
Contact:

Post by Shadowhawk »

Dammit, I know I read something from Wong about armor, but I can't find it.

Now that I think about it, though, it may have been in one of his various debates or hatemail responses.

*Shadowhawk arranges some Ewok skulls in a circle and begins the Summoning of Wong
Shadowhawk
Eric from ASVS
"Sufficiently advanced technology is often indistinguishable from magic." -- Clarke's Third Law
"Then, from sea to shining sea, the God-King sang the praises of teflon, and with his face to the sunshine, he churned lots of butter." -- Body of a pharmacy spam email

Here's my avatar, full-sized (Yoshitoshi ABe's autograph in my Lain: Omnipresence artbook)
User avatar
SylasGaunt
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 5267
Joined: 2002-09-04 09:39pm
Location: GGG

Post by SylasGaunt »

B5tech.com is I think what you're referring to. :)
User avatar
SylasGaunt
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 5267
Joined: 2002-09-04 09:39pm
Location: GGG

Post by SylasGaunt »

http://www.b5tech.com/science/misc/armor/armor.htm

That's the relavent page I believe.
Darik Sdair
Youngling
Posts: 111
Joined: 2002-07-04 12:57am
Location: New Hampshire, United States
Contact:

Post by Darik Sdair »

SylasGaunt wrote:
It doesn't have anything to do with the evidence the novels provide; honestly I rather like the novels, but the fact remains that they don't match the game system. They range from relatively minor issues (the stuff we're arguing over right now) to very major problems (the head-shot proliferation in "Phoenix" comes to mind). Ultimately, BattleTech has no continuity control in place over their authors as far as technological accuracy goes, and each author has effectively their own take on the technology base.
Mr. Stackpole's novels DO fit with the Battletech rules. Of course since the Battletech, Aerotech, and Battlespace rules seem to contradict i suppose we could throw thos eout to :roll:

Yeah, because "stackpoling" of reactors happens all the time in BattleTech. Never mind that the rules say it is phyiscally impossible.

I'd love to see you actually point out these rules contradictions rather than just repeat your same basic argument over and over.

As an aside, what exactly does the fact that Mike Stackpole was a contributor of fiction to the compendium (indeed, a main storyline developer for the novel line!) have to do with the fact that his novels' remarks don't match the game system's statistics.
They do though unless you go outside the actual battletech rules. (the ranges even appear to match with a LL having a max range of 450)

I like how here you say he matches the game system, but to Vejut's point about how his novels don't reflect the game system you say that the novels are right because they don't reflect the game system.

Never mind that a remark about the performance of a large laser by a green mechwarrior has zero bearing on the performance of those same weapons in the aerospace battlefield.

In a game-based universe like BattleTech, the games have to trump the novels when it comes to a contradiction... otherwise the universe isn't really based on the games - and then, why call it BattleTech Universe? Everything else (even the novel line as of the completion of "Endgame"), is released under the MechWarrior (and MechCommander/MechAssault) label.
Except that games inherently have to deal with issues such as game balance. And I haven't been referencing any of the mechwarrior series novels. Just the battletech ones.

Uh, because BattleTech, as a wargame, is all about game balance taking precedence in the determination of game mechanics. Or not.

Also, thank you for taking my quote about the MechWarrior game line out of context. My point is that FanPro and its owner WizKids LLC has clearly separated the core BattleTech product from all the other lines, including the novels (hence the change in the imprint)

Key word: assuming
Of course that's as he as we can go without leaving the kilojoule range now isn't it? Of course there are 998 OTHER possible numbers all of them lower, that we could use if you like.
Your entire theory here is contingent on the theory that BattleMechs take damage in the exact same way from weapons fire the way they take damage from physical combat. I'll confess that I'm not a weapons engineer, but against an armored target, a gross impact is going to transfer its energy to its target much more effectively than a beam weapon that has to burn through the ablative elements of the armor, or a small-area kinetic penetrator that's likely to be deflected if the point of least resistance from its impact is somewhere other than the giant slab of armor it is running into.
This is all based on the kinetic energy present. That is a fixed amount, and why pray tell should a battlemech take more damage from a low speed impact than from a high speed impact? (Gauss rifle shells are supposed to be watermelon shaped for example)

I make no pretense of being a physics major or a military scientist, but the method of delivering energy to a target -is- important. In World War II, to use a historical example, there are examples of tanks being killed by large-calibur high explosive shells; the tanks' armor was not penetrated, but the explosive force was transfered into the structure of the vehicle and damaged key internal components. IIRC, the late-model Panzers were especially vulnerable to this because of problems late in the war with the quality of German metallurgy.
Only when you scale the damage figures from the phyiscal attacks and assume a uniform level of energy being transfered to the target and a uniform level of efficiency in those transfers in all cases
Haven't you been doing the exact same thing only using the battlespace gauss rifle?

Thank you again for taking my remarks out of context (or at least not taking the time to read the earlier posts referenced to by Vejut or others). All I've said is that we can determine a 'mech's resistance to armor-piercing projectiles in part through determining the kinetic energy of a gauss rifle slug. In fact, I've gone out of my way to specify that lasers, missile warheads, physical attacks, and pretty much everything else may have a different affect on the armor, due to the particular strengths and weaknesses of the complex construction process of BattleTech armor plate.

And physical attacks often do more damage than weapons. So we should assume those are more efficient than BTech weapons?

Or not. Physical attacks are rarely more effective than the weapons appropriate to a 'mech of the size class in question. There are exceptions, such as the 1A1 type Charger and the Banshee (and the Fireball for that matter), but by and large, most 'mechs main guns or even secondary guns are superior to their physical attack.

The only real advantage of physical attacks is that they have a fix base to-hit, which lets green pilots make physical attacks on a level playing field. The other advantage is the special hit table for punches. Beyond this, there isn't much use for physical attacks. They deny you access to some of your weapons locations and in many cases can have negative side-effects if you miss. Worse, they are resolved after all weapons fire, so you can easily be burned down before you even make the attempt.


Even the smallest mech (20 tons IIRC) will suffer six damage just from falling down. This is an impact spread over a wider area than a weapon impact yet it does the same amount of damage as a medium pulse laser (and exceeds the damage of several weapons).

Only if they fall off a 2-level cliff
The character in the quote was not speaking in an authoratative voice; he never specified that he was referring literally to penetration mmes, and the context of the quote clearly seems to indicate he's talking about contemporary steel armor. This is supported by the TRO 3025 quote that refers to the Crab's standard armor are RHA, even though it has superior protection/ton to the armor of the Mackie, and perhaps more importantly behaves like "Mackie armor" instead of real RHA.
20 year update, page 73. Fed Com developed a guidance system the size of a hand grenade that allowed all of their missiles to home-on-target under battlefield conditions. Kurita had a booster module for their existing ECM modules to counter it within months. This is before Kurita fielded any units with Guardian ECM to my knowledge. Battlefield ECM is a reality, and it is the factor preventing homing missiles from working.


Notice that has nothing to do with WGMs.

Good, because it was in response to a comment other than the WGM red herring.

And ECM is never mentioned as the reason for shorter ranges (or wouldn't it make more sense for all these dumbfire weapons to have the same effective range) nor does it explain the reason behind longer clan weapons range (at least if ECM was the limiting factor)

[QUOTE}As for WGM missiles being agressively jammed, with all due respect I don't need any evidence. I'm answering a hypothetical question on your part - its only one possible answer; the "real" answer to the "why no WGM" question is: "because the game developers decided the technology was, for whatever reason, no longer relevant by the 31st century."
So they lack technology we've had for decades, right.[/quote]

Interesting conclusion; but irrational. The BattleTech universe diverges from real life somewhere around 1990 (SLS, written in 1988, page 7, has the Soviet Union still around in 2011, so obviously the major events of the early 1990s didn't happen the same in CBT). WGMs were invented well before the 1980s, and consequently would also exist in the BTU 20th century. To suggest that the technology was never discovered requires dramatic changes further back in the history of the BTU; changes that aren't supported by any of the sourcebooks. WGMs were, after all, used to great effect during some the Arab-Israeli fighting of the 1970s. It seems more logical - and consistent with the BTU history, that advances in technology simply rendered WGMs irrelevant.

Of course, the entire WGM argument is one big red herring, since it has nothing to do with either of the two points were's discussing here;

1) the validity of the Novels relative to the game systems
2) the relative performance of BattleTech units vs. Gundam units
Banzai!
User avatar
SylasGaunt
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 5267
Joined: 2002-09-04 09:39pm
Location: GGG

Post by SylasGaunt »

Darik Sdair wrote:
SylasGaunt wrote:
Yeah, because "stackpoling" of reactors happens all the time in BattleTech. Never mind that the rules say it is phyiscally impossible.


I'd like a quote on that because checking the engine entries in my compendium doesn't say anything about it not being possible. Also the only reactor detonations I can remember are the one Kai deliberatley set up, the one in the MW3 intro, and IIRC Phelan's first wolfhound (though that only fried the mech and not much else)

Also Stackpole has stated that when he wrote his books he worked closely with the FASA staff when writing those books.

I'd love to see you actually point out these rules contradictions rather than just repeat your same basic argument over and over.
how about, I dunno, the ranges? How about the ultra low endurance for aerofighters?

I like how here you say he matches the game system, but to Vejut's point about how his novels don't reflect the game system you say that the novels are right because they don't reflect the game system.


Not that they don't reflect the game system, but because they expand upon it. The battletech game system can't portray every possibility without being obscenely complicated.

Furthermore according to the novel in question the PPC blast whipped across the head, it didn't score a hit full on. In other cases the damage done matches that in the novels just dandy (and Stackpole states that for battle scenes he actually rolls the dice for hit locations, etc.)


Never mind that a remark about the performance of a large laser by a green mechwarrior has zero bearing on the performance of those same weapons in the aerospace battlefield.


Except we aren't talking about the aerospace battlefield, we're talking about mechs. And that same green mechwarrior did a good bit better than warriors with more experience. There's also the fact that the stated range matches the one given in the rulebook. Not that it should matter anyway since don't you think in the course of his training he would be educated as to the ranges of these weapons? Or do you think they just throw them into the field in a rare and expensive piece of equipment and let them guess?


In a game-based universe like BattleTech, the games have to trump the novels when it comes to a contradiction... otherwise the universe isn't really based on the games - and then, why call it BattleTech Universe? Everything else (even the novel line as of the completion of "Endgame"), is released under the MechWarrior (and MechCommander/MechAssault) label.


Except that games inherently have to deal with issues such as game balance. And I haven't been referencing any of the mechwarrior series novels. Just the battletech ones.


Uh, because BattleTech, as a wargame, is all about game balance taking precedence in the determination of game mechanics. Or not.

Also, thank you for taking my quote about the MechWarrior game line out of context. My point is that FanPro and its owner WizKids LLC has clearly separated the core BattleTech product from all the other lines, including the novels (hence the change in the imprint)


The fact of the matter is that game balance will always be a factor when you insist on debating using the game rules as your primary material.

Of course the change to the mechwarrior line (since none of the older books have been shifted to this) could simply mean the authors are using the mechwarrior RPG as their primary source.


I make no pretense of being a physics major or a military scientist, but the method of delivering energy to a target -is- important. In World War II, to use a historical example, there are examples of tanks being killed by large-calibur high explosive shells; the tanks' armor was not penetrated, but the explosive force was transfered into the structure of the vehicle and damaged key internal components. IIRC, the late-model Panzers were especially vulnerable to this because of problems late in the war with the quality of German metallurgy.
Notice however that such is NOT the case in any of the examples I've sited. All this damage, be it from physical attacks or weapons fire has to get through the armor first. None of it is applied directly to the internal structure (aside from maybe shock to the pilot from a head hit, but none of it damages the internal components).
Thank you again for taking my remarks out of context (or at least not taking the time to read the earlier posts referenced to by Vejut or others). All I've said is that we can determine a 'mech's resistance to armor-piercing projectiles in part through determining the kinetic energy of a gauss rifle slug. In fact, I've gone out of my way to specify that lasers, missile warheads, physical attacks, and pretty much everything else may have a different affect on the armor, due to the particular strengths and weaknesses of the complex construction process of BattleTech armor plate.
And don't you think any particular vulnerability to one or the other would be mentioned? The only case where this seems to come up is in the difference between pulse and beam lasers, and the reason behind this is due to the fact that beam lasers get somewhat dispersed by the material vaporizing off the target.
Or not. Physical attacks are rarely more effective than the weapons appropriate to a 'mech of the size class in question. There are exceptions, such as the 1A1 type Charger and the Banshee (and the Fireball for that matter), but by and large, most 'mechs main guns or even secondary guns are superior to their physical attack.


100-ton mech DFA = Twice as powerful as a Gauss rifle
Mad Dog charge (max length) = More than three times the strenght of a gauss rifle.
Timberwolf charging = Almost 4 times the strength of a gauss rifle.
Summonder DFA = 21 damage points (6 above a gauss rifle)
Mauler Charge = 3 times gauss rifle strength
Hunchback DFA = equal to gauss rifle
Hunchback charge = twice gauss rifle
Axman Hatchet= 2 points below gauss rifle (but still greater than any weapon on the axeman with the exception of its LRMs, and those need almost the entire salvo to match or exceed)
Axman Charge = more than twice gauss rifle
Axman DFA = 18 damage, again exceeding the gauss rifle
Bushwacker Charge = 40 damage
Raven Charge = 27 damage

The only mech in this case who's main weapon is consistently more powerful than the physical attack is with the Hunchback's death from above, while a full speed charge is more powerful than even the AC20.


The only real advantage of physical attacks is that they have a fix base to-hit, which lets green pilots make physical attacks on a level playing field. The other advantage is the special hit table for punches. Beyond this, there isn't much use for physical attacks. They deny you access to some of your weapons locations and in many cases can have negative side-effects if you miss. Worse, they are resolved after all weapons fire, so you can easily be burned down before you even make the attempt.
See above. A 65 ton axman's hatchet is more powerful than any weapon in its arsenal with the exception of the LRM 15s, and with those you'd need almost the entire salvo to hit in order to match or exceed the damage of said hatchet.
Only if they fall off a 2-level cliff
And even if they just fall down that can still equal the damage of some weapons. An archer just falling over will suffer almost as much damage as it would from an IS large laser.

Good, because it was in response to a comment other than the WGM red herring.
That, or agressive jamming fries the guidance computers on the WGMs, because shielding them would make the missiles prohibitively heavy for their damage output

Nice theory.. now where's your evidence backing it?
Then why pray tell was it brought up in response to a request for evidence regarding aggressive jamming frying WGMs?


Interesting conclusion; but irrational. The BattleTech universe diverges from real life somewhere around 1990 (SLS, written in 1988, page 7, has the Soviet Union still around in 2011, so obviously the major events of the early 1990s didn't happen the same in CBT). WGMs were invented well before the 1980s, and consequently would also exist in the BTU 20th century. To suggest that the technology was never discovered requires dramatic changes further back in the history of the BTU; changes that aren't supported by any of the sourcebooks. WGMs were, after all, used to great effect during some the Arab-Israeli fighting of the 1970s. It seems more logical - and consistent with the BTU history, that advances in technology simply rendered WGMs irrelevant.


And how would they be irrelavent if it was jamming that was reducing the ranges so much?

1) the validity of the Novels relative to the game systems
2) the relative performance of BattleTech units vs. Gundam units
Hardly considering it's part of the argument in regards to ECM being what makes their range so crap.
Vejut
Padawan Learner
Posts: 308
Joined: 2002-08-28 11:34pm
Location: edge of hickville, just inside suburbia

Post by Vejut »

Rules in the compendium say nothing about it--therefore you can't do it. (thats the way game rules work) and you're right, Kai did it, though I don't think phlean did. Notice how both those happened in stackpole novels (i.e. the ones exactly matching the rules, or at least the intent as you claim)? Stackpoling (as it's affectionately known) is a L3 rule--meaning house rule, not part of game. It didn't even show up (in FASA products other than the novels that is, as there are house rules, but thats like saying my ubergun can kill you all because I say it can) until many, many years later. The novels show way too many headshots, and main character survival, even when said weapon would remove mechs head. Two points of divergence off the top of my head. Probably more, but I'm not poring over the rules. Others I can think of include the infamous "mech quirks", the Oscouts sensors, and Targeting & Tracking system targeting difficulty (i.e. shoot better with a tek tru trak is a house rule, but in the game, it has no effect. In the novels, unlike in the game, all T&T's are not created basically equal. A Tek Tru Track PHX does better than a Cat's Eye equipped Panther.)

Do you really beleive a projectile even you admit is going at least mach 2 is just going to stop after 600m, without slowing down, and not be able to do any damage after that? you may say "just how the game works". I say this shows they have longer ranges, but for whatever reason targeting can't handled them. Like say, ECM blocking alot of your sensors....
User avatar
SylasGaunt
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 5267
Joined: 2002-09-04 09:39pm
Location: GGG

Post by SylasGaunt »

The rules also don't cover glancing hits, does that mean it's impossible for it to happen? I guess it's impossible for autocannons to jam since the compendium doesn't cover it? I guess Battlemechs NEVER suffer glitches and malfunctions in the field since the rules don't cover it. Furthermore since the rules don't cover it it would appear impossible for mechs to make evasive manuevers while being fired upon, and shots can never go astray and strike an unintended target?

It is IMPOSSIBLE for a game system to cover every possibility of what may and may not happen without becoming so unwieldy it's impossible to play it.
Others I can think of include the infamous "mech quirks", the Oscouts sensors, and Targeting & Tracking system targeting difficulty (i.e. shoot better with a tek tru trak is a house rule, but in the game, it has no effect. In the novels, unlike in the game, all T&T's are not created basically equal. A Tek Tru Track PHX does better than a Cat's Eye equipped Panther.)
Which only makes sense unless you think all the companies in battletech use the exact same materials, manufacturing processes, and configurations as every other company. Again this is one of those things that would make the game unwieldy if it were included.

Do you really beleive a projectile even you admit is going at least mach 2 is just going to stop after 600m, without slowing down, and not be able to do any damage after that? you may say "just how the game works". I say this shows they have longer ranges, but for whatever reason targeting can't handled them. Like say, ECM blocking alot of your sensors....
No, the ranges are that to which the weapons are accurate (which is the only range that matters). And that still doesn't explain why ranges aren't all roughly equal if its because of ECM, nor why they don't get long against targets without ECM. Further the compendium states SRMs have a maximum accurate range of less than 300 meters. In game long range for an SRM is 270 meters.. gee looks like it fits.
Post Reply