Borg Drones vs Jawas

[Embracer Of Darkness]

I totally screwed up that last quote, I'm going to bed.

[SirNitram]

Alright. Show me these personal weapons in First Contact. Best Of Both Worlds. Q Who. Indeed, show me any time a Borg in the collective turns these weapons on those they are assimilating. Walper's bald lie about them not needing to is nicely deflected by canon(Especially Scorpion, where he repeats Scooter's bald-faced lie about the ship's hull being heavily damaged by a Drone, yet wants us to ignore that Species was going hand to hand with Borg and the Borg were just walking at the creature).

[Connor MacLeod]

I already said, and I quote; "Chances are they might've sent a couple to "investigate" the Jawa and their sand crawler or whatever, but there would've been thousands of Borg still on the ship." We've seen the Borg talk through a drone, or a handful of drones, before.

Except that's not stated in the OP. Was it not Walper who started bitching that people were not listening to what the OP explicitly indicated before?

I already agreed with you that rogue Borg don't count, as they could've added the weapons themselves at a later date.

By re-assimilating the rogues, perhaps. This does not mean that every Borg drone now possesses a personal beam weapon, though.

We don't see ships from Star Wars going around BDZing planets, but we know they can. What's your point? We've seen evidence of Borg having personal weaponry, wether they constantly use them or not is irrelevent.

Dankayo. The AOTC ICS. Nar Shaddaa was intended to be BDZ'ed (and the Hutt Gambit novel implied other BDZs have been done in the past.) Moreover, your statement ignores the blatant canonical and official fact that Imperial Warships *possess* the firepower to do this - they don't need special or rare or unusual warships to do so. It also ignores the basic fact that BDZ is in fact apart of the Imperial Navy's operations databank. The name "Base Delta Zero." is the code word for such an operation, and it *Never* changes, so Imperial officers KNOW what issuing such a code means.

Nice attempt at suggesting yet another "Evil Warsie Conspiracy Double standard" at work here, BTW.

It's true that Seven was disconnected from the hive mind for the majority of that episode, but are you saying that she somehow built that weapon and incorporated it into her own body in the short time after her connection was severed? Thought not, she ovbviously had it before, as we've seen it in other episodes.

When she was again not part of the collective. How do we know she didn't acquire it from a source other than the Collective? (Did not the Rogue Borg of Lore have such weapons? Maybe she was one of them, while we're at the issue of speculating rampantly.)

We've seen that it's a standard Borg strategy to beam over victims then shove them onto tables and assimilate them either surgically or "vampire" fashion. I can't be arsed finding an episode name, because it's so blatantly obvious, but Walper probably already knows some episode names so ask him to quote you.

You mean like with Locutus/Picard - oh wait....

They also did not do this in First Contact, as I recall. No, they beamed over and tried to take over the ship.

So, because we don't see the Borg use their personal weapons against Starfleet personell (actually, Seven threatened to once, Walper quoted the episode) they simply don't? That's a hasty generalisation.

How so? How is not using the weapons (which as said can stun or kill) when they would be practical an example of a hasty generalization?

Its equally Hasty I might add to conclude that because SOME Borg demonstrate them but the majority do not use them, that every Borg has them.

Walper has described typical Borg tactics and used on-screen evidence to back up anything not so typical (ie. personal weapons). I don't see the problem, except that you are in denial in some way.

Thats because you're displaying the same irrational fanaticism and refusal to think that he is.

[Connor MacLeod]

Actually, one of the episodes he quoted (Seven stunning the other drones) was a memory from before Seven was a member of Voyager's crew.

If its only her recollections and not observed, taht makes it even more unreliable.

I think Seven stated in the episode that they had been severed from the collective as soon as they had crashed, or it was a couple of hours later. Either way, how could Seven construct a weapon capable of stunning Borg drones, and incorporate it into her body so that she thinks and it fires, with no materials??? They crashed in a jungle, you say that Walper is nitpicking, but you're saying "maybe she made the weapon out of nothing and made it a part of herself in a couple of hours tops".

I speculated as a possibility given the evidence presented. If its only a few hours, then no it doesnt seem likely. This is hardly proof that all borg possess such weapons, though.

It is relevent, because we've seen that drones can carry personal weapons.

But never use them.

[Embracer Of Darkness]

Okay, I just got out of bed because I can't sleep to check up on some messages and...

Except that's not stated in the OP. Was it not Walper who started bitching that people were not listening to what the OP explicitly indicated before?

So now the opening post must say "oh, and the Borg are allowed to use tactics they always use on the show" for them to do so?

By re-assimilating the rogues, perhaps. This does not mean that every Borg drone now possesses a personal beam weapon, though.

No, you obviously missed my point. I was saying that the rogues don't count because the rogues obviously added those weapons to themselves. Seven, however, could not have done this.

blatant canonical and official fact that Imperial Warships *possess* the firepower to do this

No, Connor, idiot. I know full well that an Imperial warship can BDZ a planet, I was simply saying that they don't go around doing it on-screen as a comparison to the way the Borg obviously don't use their weapons all the time.

Nice attempt at suggesting yet another "Evil Warsie Conspiracy Double standard" at work here, BTW.

Haha, you make it sound like I'm some Trekhead. That was a hasty generalisation simply because I am supporting the Borg in one scenario and added one thing about Star Wars to compare... It was wrong... If you must know, I think the Borg are fucking stupid wastes of time (post TNG), but I think they'd win this scenario.

When she was again not part of the collective. How do we know she didn't acquire it from a source other than the Collective? (Did not the Rogue Borg of Lore have such weapons? Maybe she was one of them, while we're at the issue of speculating rampantly.)

That's just purely grasping at every straw you can find, and you know it. There is absolutely no reason to believe that Seven was a member of Lore's rogue Borg group. She had a weapon built into her arm, accept it.

You mean like with Locutus/Picard - oh wait....

They also did not do this in First Contact, as I recall. No, they beamed over and tried to take over the ship.

No, like in (I don't know the episode titles) the Voyager episode where Seven was captured by the Borg, and the Borg Queen assimilated the remaining survivors of an assimilated world by beaming them all off their ships. Seven ended up going into where they were assimilating these people and setting them free by beaming them back to their ship and masking their lifesigns. If I recall, the Borg Queen didn't fall for this either.

How so? How is not using the weapons (which as said can stun or kill) when they would be practical an example of a hasty generalization?

Its equally Hasty I might add to conclude that because SOME Borg demonstrate them but the majority do not use them, that every Borg has them.

Don't put words into my mouth. I never said every Borg has them, all I said is "we have seen Borg with them".

Thats because you're displaying the same irrational fanaticism and refusal to think that he is.

"Oh no this rabid Trektard (rofl) is agreeing with Walper, we'll dismiss everything he's saying too! The Jawas will reign supreme and we will furiously masterbate over them."

[Robert Walper]

Embracer Of Darkness, I sincerely appreciate your support, but maybe it would be best to just let the thread die. It seems obvious to me that the Rabid Waries here are simply unwilling to acknowledge any and all arguements I've(and you've) posted which are supported by evidence I've also posted and described. This reflects badly on them, but I'm not particularily concerned about their image.

Perhap's if we're lucky, a rational debater, like say, Darth Wong, Ted C, Ender or Sean Robertson will pop in and address said points and arguements.

In the meantime, I consider the matter closed, with victory handed to the Borg.

[YT300000]

Phew, I leave for a day, and all the threads double in size.

You mean they don't optimize their shields until shot at. Given the ridiculous vulnerability to unknown threats inherent to Trek shielding, this is actually a good thing.

No, I said raise, not optimize. Eg: Q Who, the E-D damaged 40% of a cube with a couple phaser blasts,

Dialogue which is disputed by visuals. The E-D damaged significantly less than 40% of the cube. You do realize that 40% would be almost half the entire cube? Did you see almost half of the cube destroyed or damaged? I sure as hell didn't.

slicing holes in it. A little later, the cube raised shields, and further attacks from the E-D did nothing.

Same episode establishes the Borg analysis a unknown type of attack, and then adapt to it. I suppose you have evidence the Borg had encountered Galaxy class level phaser beams before? I think not.

I haven't seen the episode in a while, I don't remember the specifics, so I'll partially conceed. The fact of the matter is that they didn't raise shields until after they got attacked, something everyone does.

Since the Borg can bring back dead drones, add enemy units to their numbers, and in cases become virtually immune to enemy fire, this tactic would seem to work very well IMO.

That's just allocating more resources.

Correction. That's gaining resources without losing any.

Okay.

In FC, they built the dish to call for help, as they realized that one sphere-full of Borg couldn't assimilate Earth.

Since the Borg were focusing on assimilating the Enterprise, I fail to see how that justifies the claim they couldn't assimilate Earth.

Their objective in FC was the assimilation of Earth, the Enterprise was just in their way. The Borg only call for help when they need it, and even you will agree that a sphere of Borg cannot conquer a planet in which everyone has projectile weaponry, since they just came out of a big-ass war.

Most certainly not the best reaction to boarding parties, but the Borg Collective responds to either of three criteria: A threat, a target, or ignore it. One wonders why the Borg wouldn't consider a boarding party a threat to them, but this seems to be an aspect of the Collective mindset.

Concession Accepted.

A concession is when someone disputes a point, and I didn't, dumbass. Read more carefully.

This particular debate is about wether the Borg are dumbasses. You admitted that they are.

Could you explain how lookouts would have helped the Borg seize the Enterprise in FC? Particularily since that is exactly what they were already doing, and with apparent ease.

The dish. Had they had one drone facing outwards, he would have seen Picard and Worf coming, and (probably) warned the others. They aren't so stupid that in that situation a drone would have ignored the humans,

Actually, the Borg do ignore anything they don't consider as either a target or threat. Or are you forgetting you just finished pointing that out?

But they wouldn't ignore the feddies, since the entire mission was dependant on the dish.

as the success of the mission (assimilating Earth) was dependant on the dish.

Contacting the Collective in the current time period would have been useful, but not necessary to the assimilation of Earth. If you dispute this, by all means present evidence to suggest a lower limit on resources and manpower the Borg need to assimilate a planet.

Sure. You say a 300 metre diameter sphere has ~ 11 000? I'll take your word for it, but I seriously doubt it. Even with Borg in their tubes, you need to take into account the engines, and weapons. To kill someone, the zomb-er... Borg, need to touch and inject them with their assimilation tubules. But they move slowly. Humans just emerged from WW3. Everyone is armed, and on the alert. The Borg will get shot to death.

And another point, why did the Borg only send one cube into the heart of enemy territory, to their home? They could easily have sent two or three, and it wouldn't be a drag on their resources. And even they can't think that one cube can take out Earth's defenses for sure.

For the record, I used to really like the Borg. Then I saw this and realized that they aren't all that uber.

[Ghost Rider]

Embracer Of Darkness, I sincerely appreciate your support, but maybe it would be best to just let the thread die. It seems obvious to me that the Rabid Waries here are simply unwilling to acknowledge any and all arguements I've(and you've) posted which are supported by evidence I've also posted and described. This reflects badly on them, but I'm not particularily concerned about their image.

Perhap's if we're lucky, a rational debater, like say, Darth Wong, Ted C, Ender or Sean Robertson will pop in and address said points and arguements.

In the meantime, I consider the matter closed, with victory handed to the Borg.

Ah so when you can't convince anyone...you resort to bald ad hominems and cries of strawman.

Let's see...you say that they should have orbital capabilites and ranged weaponry...yet the OP states that they are on the ground(so you're presuming they have a perfectly capable Sphere?), and yet never shown aside against other Borg this mytical weapon.

Gotcha.

[SirNitram]

Embracer Of Darkness, I sincerely appreciate your support, but maybe it would be best to just let the thread die. It seems obvious to me that the Rabid Waries here are simply unwilling to acknowledge any and all arguements I've(and you've) posted which are supported by evidence I've also posted and described. This reflects badly on them, but I'm not particularily concerned about their image.

(Referring to Bolded) Why am I not fucking surprised? The same tactics, the same namecalling, the same fallacious or flat out dishonest references... Fuck you, troll.

Perhap's if we're lucky, a rational debater, like say, Darth Wong, Ted C, Ender or Sean Robertson will pop in and address said points and arguements.

So they can reiterate the calls for proof for the Borg, in their collective, using ranged weapons? So we can again wade through your fallacies and lies? No thanks, retard. Thanks for showing your true colours, though.

In the meantime, I consider the matter closed, with victory handed to the Borg.

You would. You're a rabid fanwhore.

Again: Show me where the Borg, in the Collective, used personal ranged weapons. Show me where they committed orbital bombardment when assimilating. Show me anything, aside from the plethora of lies and fallacies I've had to shovel through.

[Robert Walper]

Ah so when you can't convince anyone...you resort to bald ad hominems and cries of strawman.

No, when I present evidence and it's ignored, I consider that a concession. And so far, most here have outright ignored it.

Let's see...you say that they should have orbital capabilites

If the sphere is functional, then yes, they should. Note, the OP said the sphere landed, not crashed, or beyond use or even damaged in any significant way. Kinda like someone saying a US fighter has landed in some type of tactical scenario, and then saying you can't use it in said scenario without explaining why not. And all I got was bullshit like "Oh, this is ground combat scenario", etc, etc.

and ranged weaponry...

The Borg drones have it. I've presented evidence for this on multiple occasions...and every time it was ignored. I consider that a concession.

yet the OP states that they are on the ground(so you're presuming they have a perfectly capable Sphere?),

Perhaps you should read the OP:

Due to some <insert technobabble> in space-time continuum, the Borg Sphere in First Contact didn’t make it to Earth. Instead, it landed on Tatooine desert.

The Borg eventually know they’re on the wrong planet, but decide to assimilate it anyway. So they’re going to assimilate everybody until all inhabitants become Borg.

And then, they encounter a group of Jawas. Unfortunately, the Jawas are on the verge of bankruptcy, so they are desperately willing to capture *any* droid they meet to sell. After hearing the Borg’s speech about assimilation, they decide that Borg drones can make it to the market as "toys for little girls" (like the doll saying ‘Mama’ when you pull the string). So they decide to capture the drones intact (like they captured R2 in ANH).

What will happen next?

Since I've obviously missed it, please point out exactly where it is stated the entire crew complement of the Borg sphere is marching out into the desert as opposed to a few scouts? Perhaps you could also point out the part where the sphere's transporters are not operational, despite transporters being used during assimilation as a Borg tactic(ref: STVOY "Dark Frontier"). Additionally, since the Borg are already employing tactics outside of their norm, why would they not use their weaponry emplacements on their forearms? Because we've rarely seen them employed? Really? Well...I've never seen the Borg march across any desert(even once), so obviously they cannot, therefore the OP is void.

and yet never shown aside against other Borg this mytical weapon.

I gave examples...the rogue Borg in STTNG "Descent" are merely additonal evidence, but not the only source for such claims. STVOY "Scorpion" and STVOY "Survival Instinct" are another two examples, and those are just off the top of my head.

[SirNitram]

I gave examples...the rogue Borg in STTNG "Descent" are merely additonal evidence, but not the only source for such claims. STVOY "Scorpion" and STVOY "Survival Instinct" are another two examples, and those are just off the top of my head.

I wish Trekkies would stop lying about Scorpion. When this was dispelled by Mike months ago, you'd think it stop. From the script:

SCREENPLAY: Tuvok is eyeing a large section of the wall that is scorched and torn. He scans it.
TUVOK: This damage was caused by a Borg disruptor beam. The wall appears to be regenerating itself.

This section of the Bioship actually exposed part of the cockpit to vaccum. Nothing indicates it was by a personal Disruptor.. In fact, it seems to me and every logically minded person that it's a shipboard Disruptor. The fact that Robert never provides a reference beyond episode name really is the clincher.

[Robert Walper]

I wish Trekkies would stop lying about Scorpion. When this was dispelled by Mike months ago, you'd think it stop. From the script:

SCREENPLAY: Tuvok is eyeing a large section of the wall that is scorched and torn. He scans it.
TUVOK: This damage was caused by a Borg disruptor beam. The wall appears to be regenerating itself.

This section of the Bioship actually exposed part of the cockpit to vaccum. Nothing indicates it was by a personal Disruptor.. In fact, it seems to me and every logically minded person that it's a shipboard Disruptor. The fact that Robert never provides a reference beyond episode name really is the clincher.

Actually, I did. The fact that you ignored my reply where I specifically stated I did not dispute the damage was caused by shipboard weapon systems is proof you're simply ignoring my posts. That, or you cannot read(which isn't suprising given your semi-retarded state which I also mentioned in said post). I was referring to Seven of Nine's display in Voyager's cargo hold. Of course, had you actually read my post where I explained this in nice detail for you, you wouldn't have made this blunder. But as I said in that previous post, SirNitram, I don't want to debate aggressively with semi-retarded members here, so I'm going to be very nice to you from now on. You're obviously a kid with little or next to no reading skills, thus patience is somewhat demanded of me.

[SirNitram]

I wish Trekkies would stop lying about Scorpion. When this was dispelled by Mike months ago, you'd think it stop. From the script:

SCREENPLAY: Tuvok is eyeing a large section of the wall that is scorched and torn. He scans it.
TUVOK: This damage was caused by a Borg disruptor beam. The wall appears to be regenerating itself.

This section of the Bioship actually exposed part of the cockpit to vaccum. Nothing indicates it was by a personal Disruptor.. In fact, it seems to me and every logically minded person that it's a shipboard Disruptor. The fact that Robert never provides a reference beyond episode name really is the clincher.

Actually, I did. The fact that you ignored my reply where I specifically stated I did not dispute the damage was caused by shipboard weapon systems is proof you're simply ignoring my posts. That, or you cannot read(which isn't suprising given your semi-retarded state which I also mentioned in said post). I was referring to Seven of Nine's display in Voyager's cargo hold. Of course, had you actually read my post where I explained this in nice detail for you, you wouldn't have made this blunder. But as I said in that previous post, SirNitram, I don't want to debate aggressively with semi-retarded members here, so I'm going to be very nice to you from now on. You're obviously a kid with little or next to no reading skills, thus patience is somewhat demanded of me.

Oh, so you're referring to a weapon seen by a non-Drone against a Drone, who is not attempting to assimilate her victim... In a post where we're talking about Drones against prey theyre trying to assimilate.

[Robert Walper]

I wish Trekkies would stop lying about Scorpion. When this was dispelled by Mike months ago, you'd think it stop. From the script:

SCREENPLAY: Tuvok is eyeing a large section of the wall that is scorched and torn. He scans it.
TUVOK: This damage was caused by a Borg disruptor beam. The wall appears to be regenerating itself.

This section of the Bioship actually exposed part of the cockpit to vaccum. Nothing indicates it was by a personal Disruptor.. In fact, it seems to me and every logically minded person that it's a shipboard Disruptor. The fact that Robert never provides a reference beyond episode name really is the clincher.

Actually, I did. The fact that you ignored my reply where I specifically stated I did not dispute the damage was caused by shipboard weapon systems is proof you're simply ignoring my posts. That, or you cannot read(which isn't suprising given your semi-retarded state which I also mentioned in said post). I was referring to Seven of Nine's display in Voyager's cargo hold. Of course, had you actually read my post where I explained this in nice detail for you, you wouldn't have made this blunder. But as I said in that previous post, SirNitram, I don't want to debate aggressively with semi-retarded members here, so I'm going to be very nice to you from now on. You're obviously a kid with little or next to no reading skills, thus patience is somewhat demanded of me.

Oh, so you're referring to a weapon seen by a non-Drone against a Drone,

SirNitram, Seven of Nine was part of the Collective in STVOY "Scorpion". Don't you realize this? Obviously not, as I've repeatedly told you you don't know what you are talking about.

who is not attempting to assimilate her victim...

Correct, Seven was threatening Chakotay with her energy weapon because he was armed with a group of security guards behind him. Whether her weapon was set to stun or kill is not known.

In a post where we're talking about Drones against prey theyre trying to assimilate.

She was responding to a threat...you know, a armed contigent of Starfleet officers entering the cargo bay pointing their phasers around. Sorta like what the Jawas would be...a threat. If the Jawa's weaponry cannot be adapted to, the Borg drones have the capability to start using their energy weapons which are attached to their forearms. Given the enormous numerical advantage the drones would have, the Jawa's lose. If the Borg do adapt to the Jawa's weaponry, then they would have no reason to start using theirs, would they?(just like in First Contact)

[SirNitram]

Oh, so you're referring to a weapon seen by a non-Drone against a Drone,

SirNitram, Seven of Nine was part of the Collective in STVOY "Scorpion". Don't you realize this? Obviously not, as I've repeatedly told you you don't know what you are talking about.

Yet is demonstratably different from a Drone. Increased intelligence and interaction, as well as her value(Shown in later episodes).

who is not attempting to assimilate her victim...

Correct, Seven was threatening Chakotay with her energy weapon because he was armed with a group of security guards behind him. Whether her weapon was set to stun or kill is not known.

Yet this weapon is never shown in an assimilation attempt. Ever. It is never seen on a standard Drone. Seven's unusual status in the Collective is an easy explanation for this weapon.. Yet it doesn't grant it to every Drone. Oh, wait, is this too much thinking?

In a post where we're talking about Drones against prey theyre trying to assimilate.

She was responding to a threat...you know, a armed contigent of Starfleet officers entering the cargo bay pointing their phasers around. Sorta like what the Jawas would be...a threat. If the Jawa's weaponry cannot be adapted to, the Borg drones have the capability to start using their energy weapons which are attached to their forearms. Given the enormous numerical advantage the drones would have, the Jawa's lose. If the Borg do adapt to the Jawa's weaponry, then they would have no reason to start using theirs, would they?(just like in First Contact)

Funny, no Drone ever answered Starfleeters aiming at them by using a weapon. No Drone used this against Species 8472. No Drone has ever been observed to utilize this weapon in assimilation. I could spin complex and intricate reasons why not(The weapon is locked in a energetic mode, and would vaporize too much flesh to be usable in an assimilation role; problem, is not used against Species 8472.)(It's a Command weapon, issued only to Queens/ProtoQueens for potential uprisings after the Hugh Incident), but the fact remains it does not appear when it would be useful for your argument.

[Connor MacLeod]

Embracer Of Darkness, I sincerely appreciate your support, but maybe it would be best to just let the thread die. It seems obvious to me that the Rabid Waries here are simply unwilling to acknowledge any and all arguements I've(and you've) posted which are supported by evidence I've also posted and described. This reflects badly on them, but I'm not particularily concerned about their image.

My my, quite a soapbox we decided to mount, isn't it? Not only are we confusing interpretation of evidence with actual evidence, you've labeled me as a "Rabid Warsie" and ignored me completely (I have not expressed any real opinion as to who would win or not, yet you do not even respond to my comments.)

Moreover, you had the gall to accuse SirNitram of that as well. I may not always agree with him (I may even get annoyed with him from time to time), but he has, in my opinion, been a very rational person in debates, and not prone to the "Rabid Warsie" syndrome you also falllaciously attribute to him.

If I ever needed a reason to believe you *EARNED* your place up on Mike's hate mail list, it is probably this, you lying little shitsack. Go fuck yourself.

Perhap's if we're lucky, a rational debater, like say, Darth Wong, Ted C, Ender or Sean Robertson will pop in and address said points and arguements.

Go fuck yourself and the ignorant little Borg-wanking wagon you rolled in on. You're a fine one to talk about "rational" with all the bullshit you're pulling.

In the meantime, I consider the matter closed, with victory handed to the Borg.

In other words, you'll shove your head up your ass and keep singing "The Borg will win the Borg will win" like the ignorant little fucktard you are.

[Connor MacLeod]

So now the opening post must say "oh, and the Borg are allowed to use tactics they always use on the show" for them to do so?

If you mean "close to melee range with an enemy and displaying no long-range capability whatsoever" Borg-collective style combat, then yes, it is allowed.

No, you obviously missed my point. I was saying that the rogues don't count because the rogues obviously added those weapons to themselves. Seven, however, could not have done this.

The Borg who are not apart of the collective count as well, you know. All three examples deal with Borg who are no longer obeying the Collective and not behaving like Borg. Do you seriously think that this constitutes evidence that applies to the Collective as well?

No, Connor, idiot. I know full well that an Imperial warship can BDZ a planet, I was simply saying that they don't go around doing it on-screen as a comparison to the way the Borg obviously don't use their weapons all the time.

You're the one who used a flawed analogy to pretend something is otherwise than what is represented. Your analogy fails to take into account that a BDZ is done only to make an example (such as Nar Shaddaa or Dankayo) or to deprive an enemy of resources and facilities they may need. (EG: there are "practical" reasons why the Empire would not BDZ a planet - they usually NEED those same resources or don't need to make an example of everyone.) Whereas the Borg have a heap of instances where ranged energy weapons would have been useful and should have been used, yet never do. There *IS* no practical reason for this if they in fact have the weapons, unless they are so rare as to be deployed only when truly neccessary.

Haha, you make it sound like I'm some Trekhead. That was a hasty generalisation simply because I am supporting the Borg in one scenario and added one thing about Star Wars to compare... It was wrong... If you must know, I think the Borg are fucking stupid wastes of time (post TNG), but I think they'd win this scenario.

I don't care what you think my comments make you sound like. The fact is you're making an idiotic statement and refusing to acknowledge the error. I've treated a number of "Warsies" that way as well, as some can attest to. If you don't wnat to be treated that way, don't support idiotic assumptions like the crap Walper is trying to pull.

That's just purely grasping at every straw you can find, and you know it. There is absolutely no reason to believe that Seven was a member of Lore's rogue Borg group. She had a weapon built into her arm, accept it.

There is the apparent similarity that she is equipped with an arm-mounted energy weapon that few other Borg typically employ. Given a need to explain why a handful of Borg exhibit the ability while a large number of others don't, it becomes a perfectly valid possibility given what we know.

Of course, like any *reasonable* person, they realize that there are a number of possibilities (which is why I suggested for example they might be "too stupid" to use it, even if we make the massive leap in logic that every Borg Collective Drone has their own little personal blaster, despite what the facts indicate.) There are certainly other possibilities, such as the weapon being used by a certain "kind" of Borg. But its hardly proof to the fan-wanking degree that Walper wants it to be.

No, like in (I don't know the episode titles) the Voyager episode where Seven was captured by the Borg, and the Borg Queen assimilated the remaining survivors of an assimilated world by beaming them all off their ships. Seven ended up going into where they were assimilating these people and setting them free by beaming them back to their ship and masking their lifesigns. If I recall, the Borg Queen didn't fall for this either.

So then why don't we see this being done in First Contact? Hmmm? Even if we grant this supposed ability exists, the fact remains that it was not exhibited by the FC Borg, when they should have done so

Don't put words into my mouth. I never said every Borg has them, all I said is "we have seen Borg with them".

We've seen Borg no longer part of the Collective use them. Quite a bit difference from the Borg apart of the Collective, so don't generalize here. The Collective *may* have drones that use such weapons, but they are not common nor readily deployed.

"Oh no this rabid Trektard (rofl) is agreeing with Walper, we'll dismiss everything he's saying too! The Jawas will reign supreme and we will furiously masterbate over them."

I never said anything about the Jawas, did I? I've simply pointed out a number of gaping holes large enough to drive a Dino-killer asteroid through in Borg-wanker's logic, and all you and he can do is keep screaming that people are just ignoring the truth.

[The Third Man]

Jawas could have a problem using their droid-immobilising weapon on the Borg, bearing in mind that their objective is capture-for-resale. The weapon would be optimised for disabling SW droids, not ST cyborgs. Obiously if the weapon (setting) is too weak in its effect on Borg, it's useless. If it is too powerful in effect on the Borg, it could destroy them - 7of9 and Picard show that there are some Borg implants that cannot be removed because to do so would do something extraordinarily bad to the subject (I assume death). So if the Jawa weapon disables or destroys these critical implants, the Borg target will not survive. If the Jawas have to substantially increase the power level of their weapon to achieve brute-force penetration of Borg shields, then getting the optimum power delivered to the target would be an even more delicate task.

Another problem for the Jawas would be preserving any Borg they might capture. IIRC 7of9 required a specialised regeneration chamber, which consumed some unfeasibly high amount of power - these wouldn't appear to be available in the hold of the Java sandcrawler, and I suspect from the Jawas penny-pinching lifestyle that the typical sandcrawler doesn't have much power to spare anyway.

Similarly, would the Borg be capable of assimilating a species as diminutive and non-humanoid as the Jawas? We see that Borg technology in general is geared towards humanoids of about-human size, and assimilation equipment (tables, implants etc) is designed for specimens of similar dimensions. The exception to this would be the case of Borgified children, which would indicate that Borg can assimilate something of approximately Jawa size, but would they be interested in a species that wouldn't mature to human dimensions? Is Jawa anatomy sufficiently humanoid for the assimilation process?

[Robert Walper]

Jawas could have a problem using their droid-immobilising weapon on the Borg, bearing in mind that their objective is capture-for-resale. The weapon would be optimised for disabling SW droids, not ST cyborgs. Obiously if the weapon (setting) is too weak in its effect on Borg, it's useless. If it is too powerful in effect on the Borg, it could destroy them - 7of9 and Picard show that there are some Borg implants that cannot be removed because to do so would do something extraordinarily bad to the subject (I assume death). So if the Jawa weapon disables or destroys these critical implants, the Borg target will not survive. If the Jawas have to substantially increase the power level of their weapon to achieve brute-force penetration of Borg shields, then getting the optimum power delivered to the target would be an even more delicate task.

Agreed.

Another problem for the Jawas would be preserving any Borg they might capture. IIRC 7of9 required a specialised regeneration chamber,

Typically referred to as a Borg alcove.

which consumed some unfeasibly high amount of power

Over 30 megawatts according to STVOY "Dark Frontier". This is interesting given the size of the alcove and it apparently not doing anything that we are aware of, but that doesn't rule out that some aspect of the technology consuming that much power. After all, Seven is able to be contacted by the Collective(to the point of being fully immersed in a fictional reality construct as seen in STVOY "Unimatrix Aero"), thus we might thoerize the alcove is using such high power requirements to maintain a link to Borg subspace communication systems.

- these wouldn't appear to be available in the hold of the Java sandcrawler, and I suspect from the Jawas penny-pinching lifestyle that the typical sandcrawler doesn't have much power to spare anyway.

Power capabilities of a Jawa sandcrawler are unknown to myself, nor their capabilities to adapt foreign technology into their technological basis. Additionally, the Jawas would need some alcoves to work with, since I find it highly unlikely the Jawas could build one from scratch, or even know one is required for said drones in the first place. Conceivably, alcoves should be available from Borg sphere mentioned in the OP...but it doesn't exist unfortunately(that or it is so damaged that transporters and other systems are useless and thus unavailable to the Borg drones in question, despite being described as "landing" on the Tatooine desert).

Similarly, would the Borg be capable of assimilating a species as diminutive and non-humanoid as the Jawas?

Presumeably, the Jawa's are organic lifeforms with living cells. The Docter in STVOY "Scorpion" utilizing visuals and dialogue, plainly indicated Borg nano-probes, when infiltrating a biological organism, target and attach to living cells. So far, the only known species to be resistant to such a attack is Species 8472, which had a extremely powerful immune system that attacked and destroyed any foreign bodies, whether chemical, biological or technological in nature. I'm extremely dubious as to the Jawas having this similar type of immune system.

We see that Borg technology in general is geared towards humanoids of about-human size, and assimilation equipment (tables, implants etc) is designed for specimens of similar dimensions. The exception to this would be the case of Borgified children, which would indicate that Borg can assimilate something of approximately Jawa size, but would they be interested in a species that wouldn't mature to human dimensions?

Typically, the Borg are only interested in assimilating any species that has some unique biological or technology aspect that would contribute to the Collective's goal of complete biological and technological perfection. Given the OP, the Borg have presumeably found the Jawas to be of interest.

Is Jawa anatomy sufficiently humanoid for the assimilation process?

As I said, assuming said Jawas have blood cells, I see no reason why the Borg would be unable to assimilate them given they allowed to use their technology geared towards such functions.

[Robert Walper]

A quick question to all concerned. Why exactly, is it assumed that the rogue Borg witnessed in STTNG "Descent" added their personal firearms, despite Seven's example of Borg drones having them in the first place? I've seen no evidence to suggest such a thing, and Seven's example does suggest the Borg already equip drones with these types of weaponry.

The biggest arguments I've seen here against this evidence is "oh we don't see them use it, therefore they don't have it, you can't use Seven as an example, you can't use rogue Borg as example", etc, etc.

This seems rather a stupid assertion to me since the Borg have been seen to engage mostly Starfleet personal who's weapons become useless against them. Given the Borg's desire for efficency, firing off their energy weapons for no valid reason seems absurd. As the FC example clearly shows, the Borg had little or next to no problem taking decks at ease, capturing enemy units and maintaining their numbes at was appears to be a more than sufficient level.

[Darth Fanboy]

*Hands Robert Walper a pair of Sympathy Tampons*

One for the obviously high amounts of rectal bleeding you're suffering, and another one for your throat to that you'll at least troll in silence.

[Ghost Rider]

That's right, because using Projectile weaponry wouldn't have stopped Data, or Picard, or Worf, or 8472, or Voyager's crew members. They only use them when they suddenly realize they have this mystical weapon.

You do know this just makes the Borg look even dumber if that's possible.

They have by your and your accounts alone a projectile weapon that they never use because what advantage would it hold...right. It wouldn't solved innumberable problems they have within FC, or 8472....but hey why bother.

[SirNitram]

A quick question to all concerned. Why exactly, is it assumed that the rogue Borg witnessed in STTNG "Descent" added their personal firearms, despite Seven's example of Borg drones having them in the first place? I've seen no evidence to suggest such a thing, and Seven's example does suggest the Borg already equip drones with these types of weaponry.

Because we encounter situations where it would have massively benefitted them.. And they did not use it. So either they don't have it, or they're too stupid to use it.

The biggest arguments I've seen here against this evidence is "oh we don't see them use it, therefore they don't have it, you can't use Seven as an example, you can't use rogue Borg as example", etc, etc.

Yes, when people are supposed to have an ability, it would greatly benefit them to use this ability, and they don't, we generally assume it's not there. I realize this is alot of complicated thinking for you.

This seems rather a stupid assertion to me since the Borg have been seen to engage mostly Starfleet personal who's weapons become useless against them. Given the Borg's desire for efficency, firing off their energy weapons for no valid reason seems absurd. As the FC example clearly shows, the Borg had little or next to no problem taking decks at ease, capturing enemy units and maintaining their numbes at was appears to be a more than sufficient level.

Species 8472. Instead of shooting it at range they walked up to it and it's claws. Your Concession is accepted.

[Robert Walper]

A quick question to all concerned. Why exactly, is it assumed that the rogue Borg witnessed in STTNG "Descent" added their personal firearms, despite Seven's example of Borg drones having them in the first place? I've seen no evidence to suggest such a thing, and Seven's example does suggest the Borg already equip drones with these types of weaponry.

Because we encounter situations where it would have massively benefitted them.

Then proceed to list examples where it would have benefitted them significantly as opposed to accomplishing nothing of major significance(in other words FC) or being in a state where using said weapons wouldn't have occurred to them(your "Scorpion" example).

And they did not use it. So either they don't have it, or they're too stupid to use it.

Examples I've stated show that they clearly have it. They obviously rarely use, but they have the capability which is the question.

This is much like Obi Wan's fight with Jango Fett in AOTC. He would have greatly benefitted from pulling Jango Fett's weapons out of his hands. He didn't, therefore he cannot? Makes sense? This is the exact method you are employing to determine the Borg cannot use their energy weapons because they rarely do(nor have the need).

The biggest arguments I've seen here against this evidence is "oh we don't see them use it, therefore they don't have it, you can't use Seven as an example, you can't use rogue Borg as example", etc, etc.

Yes, when people are supposed to have an ability, it would greatly benefit them to use this ability,

Much like a Jedi pulling a opponents weapons out their hands, rather than using their lightsaber to nullify said attack. I guess this means Jedi cannot do this, and the one example of it happening can easily be attributed to a special case.

and they don't, we generally assume it's not there. I realize this is alot of complicated thinking for you.

No, you're taking clearly outlined evidence of said ability, ignoring it, and saying the Borg cannot possibly use their energy weapons because they use them rarely. I'd rather you simply be honest and admit they have the ability, but rarely ever use it. Attribute it to stupidity if you want, but don't deny the capability.

Species 8472. Instead of shooting it at range they walked up to it and it's claws. Your Concession is accepted.

How many times must I say it, SirNitram? The Borg in the specific example you're using("Scorpion") are:
(1) cut off from the Collective, thus they are not receiving any instructions,
(2) on fragments of their previously intact ships,
(3) are not marching towards Species 8472, they are in fact being hunted down and easily unaware of the Species 8472 presence,
(4) confused and disorganized and,
(5) Species 8472 is virtually immune to small arms energy weapons fire, as seem in STVOY "Prey".

You're focusing on one scenario where utilizing of their personal weaponry would be a extremely dubious advantage, and also lacking the instructions from the Collective. Or are you going to seriously suggest Borg drones take personal initiative rather than being somewhat helpless and confused when seperated from the Collective hive mind?

[SirNitram]

A quick question to all concerned. Why exactly, is it assumed that the rogue Borg witnessed in STTNG "Descent" added their personal firearms, despite Seven's example of Borg drones having them in the first place? I've seen no evidence to suggest such a thing, and Seven's example does suggest the Borg already equip drones with these types of weaponry.

Because we encounter situations where it would have massively benefitted them.

Then proceed to list examples where it would have benefitted them significantly as opposed to accomplishing nothing of major significance(in other words FC) or being in a state where using said weapons wouldn't have occurred to them(your "Scorpion" example).

Ah, we're now going to invent reasons why the ones in Scorpion can't use their weapons. Occam's Razor is apparently beyond you. Not that I'm surprised, given your similarities to another famous Trek Troll..

And they did not use it. So either they don't have it, or they're too stupid to use it.

Examples I've stated show that they clearly have it. They obviously rarely use, but they have the capability which is the question.

This is much like Obi Wan's fight with Jango Fett in AOTC. He would have greatly benefitted from pulling Jango Fett's weapons out of his hands. He didn't, therefore he cannot? Makes sense? This is the exact method you are employing to determine the Borg cannot use their energy weapons because they rarely do(nor have the need).

Given the canonical statements by Yoda and Mace, we can safely conclude that his normal TK was, in fact, not at it's best. Of course, applying canonical evidence against your pet side is beyond you. Again, you've shown no examples of a Drone using them, and completely sidestepped the post where I expound on the differences between Seven and a Drone. Honestly, are you trying to emulate RSA?

The biggest arguments I've seen here against this evidence is "oh we don't see them use it, therefore they don't have it, you can't use Seven as an example, you can't use rogue Borg as example", etc, etc.

Yes, when people are supposed to have an ability, it would greatly benefit them to use this ability,

Much like a Jedi pulling a opponents weapons out their hands, rather than using their lightsaber to nullify said attack. I guess this means Jedi cannot do this, and the one example of it happening can easily be attributed to a special case.

Or, instead of being a fucking moron like you, we can apply canonical knowledge to the situation. But again, you're showing your stupidity.

and they don't, we generally assume it's not there. I realize this is alot of complicated thinking for you.

No, you're taking clearly outlined evidence of said ability, ignoring it, and saying the Borg cannot possibly use their energy weapons because they use them rarely. I'd rather you simply be honest and admit they have the ability, but rarely ever use it. Attribute it to stupidity if you want, but don't deny the capability.

Flat out lie, only possible because you've been sidestepping posts that you can't rebutt.

Species 8472. Instead of shooting it at range they walked up to it and it's claws. Your Concession is accepted.

How many times must I say it, SirNitram? The Borg in the specific example you're using("Scorpion") are:
(1) cut off from the Collective, thus they are not receiving any instructions,

Pure conjecture. The symptoms of being cut off do not manifest themselves(Personality, shutdown, etc).

(2) on fragments of their previously intact ships,

What happened to a Cube is functioning until it's 25% or less structure, Borg Wanker? Oh yea, it's bullshit.

(3) are not marching towards Species 8472, they are in fact being hunted down and easily unaware of the Species 8472 presence,

Thanks for supporting the idea that the Jawas will take this without a scratch because Borg threat recignition is nonexistant.

(4) confused and disorganized and,

As opposed to stoned, their normal state?

(5) Species 8472 is virtually immune to small arms energy weapons fire, as seem in STVOY "Prey".

Ah yes, because ST is too primitive to understand cranking up energy setting. I forgot that.

You're focusing on one scenario where utilizing of their personal weaponry would be a extremely dubious advantage, and also lacking the instructions from the Collective. Or are you going to seriously suggest Borg drones take personal initiative rather than being somewhat helpless and confused when seperated from the Collective hive mind?

Please provide canonical evidence of them being cut off. While we're at it, either refute the idea that Seven is different from Drones, or prove a Drone has the weapon she used.